Well guy's... I will tell you this.. I have enjoyed reading both sides of the argument and both "points of view." 

Well done... If I had more energy, I would give some input... lol...

Given two generations have gone by without the almost monthly advances and new designs of the first decade of our space program I suppose the scenario I proposed seems pretty "Star Wars" fantasy like.  It's not.  As I said, it's based on a variety of input from some of the best minds in the business and contains no fantasy technology.  We'd be where I put us in 20 years right now if we'd kept it up, and the economy would not be an issue.  Our standard of living would be much higher and continuing to rise, and we probably wouldn't be in Afghanistan was a piece of a major pie is something most nations prefer to war. 

While I am major proponent of private industry in space and daily follow Elon Musk, Burt Rutan, and others I don't understand the resistance to taxpayer participation in opening the frontier and establishing government there.  We will need a naval precense in space as well as infrastructure.  I think the argument I made about the railroads is a good one.  It was the taxpayers that funded the right of way for those railroads and without that impetus it would have been decades before private industry could justify the cost and risk of building them.

They don't come much more conservative than I, but there is a place for government in expansion.  We take the highways for granted, but how many would vote to pull out government money and turn them all over to private industry?

I suppose what gets me is that most are completely apathetic.  At least Maron pushes back passionately...fer cryin' out loud the guy is at least ALIVE!

What's the matter with everybody else????

Dave

Maron Horonzak:

Dave,,, Yes We are a nation within a nation,,,One truely defeated,, But not Truely lost...But witch one ????

Both, Maron.  Both.

Dave

Can someone explain how Manifest Destiny turned into a Socialist vs Capitalist argument? All I gotta say on that note is the more I read the book of Acts, the more attractive that kind of society model becomes...I don't think it fits into either category, but it'd probably be more socialist than capitalist...

Anyways, humans are lazy and won't get together to expand our horizons until it is felt necessary. A quick look throughout history shows this trend. The original space program was all about the cold war - the reason it stopped is because those threats subsided. The original "invaders" to America were fleeing religious persecution and famine.

My prediction is that an energy crisis will be the worldwide motivator before we start exploring our neighboring planets. I suppose it could be all sorts of other things as well. But based on the current state of affairs, I think it's gonna be a long time before any of that happens though.

My Step Father was not a gambling man,,,,But he took advantage of the situation,,  When Las Vegas was in its earley development,,,He was one of five that put together the Hasienda Corp,,,A group that supplied all the GAMBLING TABLES to the Powers at be,,in vegas ,,,,, A one town industry ,,Not well diversified in other type of money making...Unless you were a pimp....Thats the way I look at all polatitions,,,They will take your money and guarantee youd get screwd,,,   Mom followed him out to Vegas,,I didnt follow,,,She said life out there was good,,,CHICKEN ONE DAY, AND FEATHERS THE NEXT..Thats whats happening today,,,As we recover from a deep recession,,   We need to recover and decide where we want to go,,,I dont think it will be down the same road,,,

I agree with you Mike,,

DrWho:

Can someone explain how Manifest Destiny turned into a Socialist vs Capitalist argument? All I gotta say on that note is the more I read the book of Acts, the more attractive that kind of society model becomes...I don't think it fits into either category, but it'd probably be more socialist than capitalist...

Anyways, humans are lazy and won't get together to expand our horizons until it is felt necessary. A quick look throughout history shows this trend. The original space program was all about the cold war - the reason it stopped is because those threats subsided. The original "invaders" to America were fleeing religious persecution and famine.

My prediction is that an energy crisis will be the worldwide motivator before we start exploring our neighboring planets. I suppose it could be all sorts of other things as well. But based on the current state of affairs, I think it's gonna be a long time before any of that happens though.

Yeah, I am with you and Maron here.  I hate seeing this nation in economic decline, and so easily averted.  This nation's rise was driven by expansion, abundant resources, and a government that invested in the infrastructure to power private industry.  Like it or not, it was projects like the railroads, the Panama Canal, TVA, the great hydro projects in the west, the Interstate system, and the space program that powered our rise to the top economically.  The space program returned many times the investment even though it really never did anything, given that it was abandoned short of actually achieving a beachhead. 

Granted, the ISS is something.  Even shrunk as it was from the original vision I am grateful it was built.  Without it, private industry would have much less impetus to develop manned craft and the situation would be even worse than it is. 

You are definitely correct about energy and other resources eventually forcing us to do what we should be doing anyway.  We've ruined this planet and used up much of it's resources.  When things get bad enough we will go.  Unfortunately, if the US still exists it will likely be just a spectator hoping for a handout because, as you suggest, it will be a few decades before things start getting really rough and at our current rate of decline we'll have neither the prowess nor the money to do the job.

I may be too pessimistic.  Private industry is really gearing up and some really super designs are being developed and tested.  Given the infinite potential for profit it WILL happen. 

As to the Manifest Destiny thing, it may have been a poor choice of title.  Certainly the US of the 19th century can hardly be described as "socialist" and it was that enlightened policy of the use of federal funds and power to expand the frontiers and grow the economy I was trying to invoke.

Dave

I truly believe that it is mankind’s “destiny” to reach out to the stars. Whether this is a result of necessity (a depleted planet) or pure research remains to be seen.

I do think that there are a few things that need to happen before we embark on such a journey.  It’s simply not going to happen under our currently VERY fragmented “political” environment. I don’t know if it’s going to take a “world government” or maybe “regional” cooperation but I do know that no nation on earth can afford anything approaching the HUGE costs of an interplanetary mission at this time or for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps I’ve read WAY too much science fiction but I also think that humans will not expand beyond our planet until we have contact with other extraterrestrial civilizations.  I believe it’s going to require the technology boost supplied by other worlds before we will be able to venture outside of our system.

Of course I’m one of the maybe 6 or 7 people on the planet that thinks that Einstein got it completely wrong and that time, space, and velocity are completely unrelated from one another. On the other hand I know that I drink too much… ERRR… I meant to say I think too much. ;) so what do I know. :)

Jhoak....I think your biting off more than you can chew,,er drink,,, I wouldnt reach out further than our own STAR,, yet,,,As far as reaching out further you would need something moving as fast as ,,or near,, The speed of light...But even that is too too slow,,,Take plenty of toilet paper..  So far, poundining at Einstein Will only just ask for more questions..And more to resolve,,Space/time is realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy realy LARGE.

jhoak:

I truly believe that it is mankind’s “destiny” to reach out to the stars. Whether this is a result of necessity (a depleted planet) or pure research remains to be seen.

It does?  What's your plan for adding land, food, and resources? 

I am interested in research and consider it noble.  But I have been talking about survival.  What's the plan to contain an infinitely expanding population in a finite space?

jhoak:

I believe it’s going to require the technology boost supplied by other worlds before we will be able to venture outside of our system.

IF there are such intelligences they will have developed their technology by a superior evolution that provided them with a will to survive.  What's our excuse?  Why should they care about a bunch of monkeys too dumb to find food?

I've not been talking about the Enterprise and seeking out strange new worlds here, just using garden variety already mature technology to make ourselves rich and provide opportunities for emerging nations to join with us in the peaceful pursuit of commerce, trade, and expansion. 

No Buck Rogers stuff.  While intersteller travel is a super cool thought I have been talking about practical issues than we have the technology to deal with right now. 

Dave

I was suprized to find that you coud place all the billions of people in TEXAS and they still would have the room to take a swing at each other,,

Maron Horonzak:

I was suprized to find that you coud place all the billions of people in TEXAS and they still would have the room to take a swing at each other,,

And then what? 

I think I mentioned previously that vast areas of west Texas are cactus and salt cedar wastelands, all products of the past 70 years or so.  I have a picture of my father in his working cowboy outfit made near Sonora about 1919.  He is standing in grass that extends as far as the camera can see.  Good luck finding any now.   

Having adequate space to take a swing at my neighbor isn't what I hope for my son and his children.  I recently took him to a spot where my family has been going for nearly a 100 years.  Until I was about 10, it was hardly changed from a 1000 years before.  Now, it's been "preserved," but that preservation is a completely futile attempt and, in fact, a death knell.  Usage is a 100 times what it was when I was young and will increase to the point in the next decade that reservations will be required.  If you are getting a yellow alert that reservations will be required just to see what used to be "normal" environment you aren't paying attention.  "Natural" areas and "reservations" are a contradiction in terms.  If you don't believe it, just ask the Amerindians.

The colonization of space isn't remotely as fanciful as the idea that "It will all be fine."  It isn't about space cadets dreaming of galactic empire and warp drives...it's just about surviving and just maybe preserving some small part of this Eden for generations to come.

If I see an upside it's in the resilience of nature.  If we are, indeed, an evolutionary blind alley and are stillborn, the planet will regenerate.  Plenty of time left in this cycle.  Perhaps the next bunch will be a bit brighter than us.   

Dave

WELLLLLLLL !!!!! WHEN OUR SUN IN ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF BILLION YEARS GOES INTO A SUPER NOVA,,,THATS SHURE THE HECK GONNA STING,,,

Maron Horonzak:

WELLLLLLLL !!!!! WHEN OUR SUN IN ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF BILLION YEARS GOES INTO A SUPER NOVA,,,THATS SHURE THE HECK GONNA STING,,,

Yes, as Louis XV said "It will last my time..."  Let's just let our descendent deal with it.

That's why I consider most recycling and conservation efforts silly and counter productive.  The faster we deplete the remaining resources in our life boat, the sooner we are forced to row for land or perish. 

Dave

Thats why i believe in renewable resources,,,  Get a newer wife every 10 years..And let her do the rowing..