Hi, I am new to klipsch and two days ago I saw an ad on Craigslist for a pair of Klipschorn speakers. The owner agreed to bring it to my house to set it up if I would buy it and so I agreed. I had never seen them in person before or heard about them from anyone but I liked the idea of a horn speaker. I did not realize how big they were, thinking they were a little bigger than maybe the la scala that I had seen at my friends house. I now own them and I am very happy. For $1200 for a near mint pair of these built in 1989 I figured why not try them. They are replacing my Legacy Focus 20/20 speakers, which will now move to the home theatre set-up, front or rear not sure yet. Polk audio SDA-SRS speakers are in the front of that system for now. Mike at Klipsch told me about this forum and that I could go here for some friendly advice and conversation so I figured I would give it a try. I have 3 types of amplifiers I can try with there speakers and I will try them all in multiple configurations. I own a pair of amps imported by C.C. Poon at Monarchy Audio called the Dignity Audio DA08SE mono block SET amps(8 watts a side) using one  300B and one 6SN7 tube per side, a Threshold 800A solid state amp(200 watts class A per side) and an old pristine Mcintosh MC275 stereo amplifier(75 watts per side). If you have experience with Klipschorn could you please share with me if you would bi-amp or not. If you were to bi-amp what combination would you try. I intend of course to make my own final decission. Just thought it would be interesting to here from you. If I do bi-amp can I do it without an external crossover and if necessary to have one can you recommend one new or used for maybe around $200. Thanks in advance, Tony.

a lot of factors on this one which could daisy chain into a run away nuclear  reaction

why bi-amp>power driven>use passive xovers>use active xovers>if using active do you leave in the passives to protect the drivers>if active do you remove the passives>what about fools bi-amping..do it ..don't do oit>does one amp alone have emough power> how much is enough power>what would I do.

I would keep it simple, try the various amps, determine if there's a preference, etc.

If you've got the amps, there's no reason not to biamp. The only problem is that active crossovers in the range of $200 aren't going to sound the best. You might be able to pick up a Behringer for around that price and get an idea of what active crossovers can do for you. 

 I tried all three amps with my klipschorns and the Dignity Audio SET amps were the best, over the Mcintosh MC275 and Threshold 800A. I tried bi-amping but when I connected the 2 SET mono amps to the lower two inputs and the two SET mono amps to the upper two inputs, only the bass worked. I disconnected the wire going from the crossover to the upper two inputs, but should I have left them on and also connected the amps to them as well? Thanks, Tony

On my classic Klipsch corner Khorns, I am not sure about the time delay issue with bi-amplification, I remember something somewhere about it pertaining more to cones that constant directivity horns…

Like the Cornwall, the 15” woofer in the Khorn bass bin is run full range. The crossover limits the signal to the mid and high range horns. I am not really bi-amping, more like passive dual-amping. I am running flea-powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour monoblocks SETs on the top crossover (mid and upper horns) and a 70s vintage, 48-pound Pioneer M-22 dual monoblock (think mini-Threshold) solid-state amplifier on the bass bin. The Paramours are rated for 3.5, but put out 6 watts. The Pioneer is rated for 22 extremely low THD Class A watts, but puts out 60 watts. I think it is important that the power output of the amps be similar, otherwise you get some nasty balancing issues, which are best resolved by an active crossover.

Against advice, I disconnected the top crossover network from the bottom cable connection plate on the bass bin and connected the two amplifiers to the two sets of outputs on my pre-amplifier. 

I love it. The monster Pioneer has the best control of the bass of any amplifier I have heard on my big ole horns. It sounds similar to the $6k Pass X250 I heard on my walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with B2 crossovers - but only at low to moderate low volumes. The sweet tubes have immediacy, delicacy, soundstage and imaging. A wonderful combination so far, though I will admit I do not crank it very loud. I understand that since I am running dual amplifiers, WITHOUT an active electronic crossover ahead of the drivers, each amp receives a full range signal and therefore clips at the same point it did previously. So I am not getting the effect of 4 times more power as I would with true bi-amping, where you divide the signal ahead of the amplifiers.

Tonysf:

 I tried all three amps with my klipschorns and the Dignity Audio SET amps were the best, over the Mcintosh MC275 and Threshold 800A. I tried bi-amping but when I connected the 2 SET mono amps to the lower two inputs and the two SET mono amps to the upper two inputs, only the bass worked. I disconnected the wire going from the crossover to the upper two inputs, but should I have left them on and also connected the amps to them as well? Thanks, Tony

 

This is where knowing which kind of crossovers you have helps.

It sounds like you do not have AA's.  

The arrangement you outline in which there's two sets of jacks on the woofer access panel needs to be explained.   The lower set is the input line.  The upper set feed the top section.  So yeah, if you connected an amp to the lower set, and another amp to the upper set on the same woofer access panel, it will not work.  

The process of bi-amping that does not use an active crossover would require that you connect your addtional amp to the top section using the wire that comes down from the top.  Your going to have to extend the wires.  And yes, this will result in nothing being connected to the top set's of jacks on the woofer access panel.

Biamping, expecially without the use of active crossovers allowing for  precise signal alignment of each passband offers little advantage.

Furthermore, you will want to tri-amp with an active crossover allowing for signal alignment of each of the 3 passbands' acoustic origins. Such an arrangement offers substantial real advantages.

IMO, if you are not prepared to do the signal alignment, biamping with the amplified and passively coupled MF & HF which are not only unaligned with each other, but which will ultimately be passively crossed over with the LF passband that also  remains unaligned with a separately amplified (whew, say that several times fast!), then this configuration offers little if any substantial advantage while retaining the biggest problems of a non-triamped topology.. What advantages of power handling and distortion are afforded the reproduction of limited passbands are of minimum advantage compared to those afforded by true multiamping with signal alignment via the use of a quality active crossover. 

Thanks everyone, now I get it. No I do not have the AA network but rather the AK-2 1989 version. I see now that I would have to extend the wires to reach my amps or just use longer interconnects(not really a good option as I use a Placette Passive pre amp and they recommmend against interconnects longer than 1 meter). When I bi-amped my Legacy Focus 20/20's I just took off the jumper connecters and bi-amped directly, but I see now if I bi-amp I should use a crossover, just not sure which one to use.

Colin:

On my classic Klipsch corner Khorns, I am not sure about the time delay issue with bi-amplification, I remember something somewhere about it pertaining more to cones that constant directivity horns…

I think it's the other way around....horns, by their very nature, move the driver away from the motorboard creating all sorts of time-arrival differences. Cones generally aren't so bad because all the drivers are usually mounted right next to each other on the same baffle. 

Also, bi-amping does not give you 4x more power output (even when properly biamped with an active crossover). If you think of an amplifier as a voltage multiplier (which is what it is), then there's no reason that its peak voltage output will change if you feed it a different signal (in this case, a limited bandwidth signal).

I think what you might be referencing is an article written by a Peavey engineer who pointed out that MF/HF horns are generally more efficient and that you can get away with clipping the amp driving the woofer. While perfectly suitable for live sound reinforcement, I don't think we want to be clipping our amps in a high fidelity home environment.

DrWho:

I don't think we want to be clipping our amps in a high fidelity home environment.

Aren't YOU a party pooper!

Dr, is this wrong?

"

From a previous post: The 4:1 benefit for bi-amping is only there when the frequency spectrum is divided ahead of the power amps and when the crossover setting is near the mid point of the energy distribution. On a voltage basis, the division occurs around 250hz.This must be weighted by the peak to average ratio so that the equal energy point for above and below the crossover is about 500hz.This is also affected by the slope of the crossover. For the example of the Klipsch Cornwall, it has a 600hz crossover point. If the drivers were the same efficiency, then 50W + 50W amplifier would = 200W through the passive crossover. In reality, the HF cut-off is 10dB more efficient than the LF woofer so we only need 50W + 5W to = 200W.

If the HF remains undistorted, it will mask distortion from the LF amp driven slightly into clipping. This means that if we use a 10W HF amp with a 50W LF amp it would take 400W to play the same level undistorted through the passive crossover! If you 'bi-amp' your speakers WITHOUT an electronic crossover, each amp will be receiving full range signal and will clip at the same point it did with only one amp hooked up to the speakers. It does sound different to do this, but make no mistake, you will not be getting the benefits of dividing the signal ahead of the amplifiers."

So I know that i am not getting the affect of 4x more power, but I am getting the best bass I have heard on my big ole horns!

Yea, that's way off the mark.

 "Dr, is this wrong?"

Of course it's correct, I wrote it.

"Also, bi-amping does not give you 4x more power output (even when properly biamped with an active crossover). "

Yes it does.

Ever wonder why your RF generator is rated for 6dB less output with full modulation?

Take your RF generator an run it into a spectrum analyzer and set the levels to get a 0dB reading. Turn on the modulation at 100% and watch the spectrum analyzer go up 6dB (4X the power).

Audio works exactly the same way.

" I understand that since I am running dual amplifiers, WITHOUT an active electronic crossover ahead of the drivers, each amp receives a full range signal and therefore clips at the same point it did previously. "

True, but easy to remedy. You can have the same transfer function as your passive crossover by sizing the input capacitor to your Paramour monoblocks, and gain about 6dB of dynamic headroom (from removing the bass signal). You can continue running the Pioneer as you are because you have power to burn (relative to the Paramour). Because the input cap will be so small (from the 270K input impedance of the Paramour) you can try what would (at speaker levels) be very expensive caps; Mundorf oils or Teflon.

If you need still another 6dB dynamic range, the Paramour may be wired for 16 ohms and the tweeter crossover from the Klipsch LB-76 network used instead of the AK2 HF sections.

Djk I sent you a PM, about a month ago

rigma 

djk, thanks but it is greek to me, I can't solder for ***