Leaderboard

Amps and Sound SE-84 I enjoy my weekly call from Dave Harris since it always provides an opportunity for a good rant. This is cheap entertainment for Dave, and I'm pretty sure it's the main reason he calls. Sometimes we're forced to talk business, since we often share customers, and other times we actually talk about the things that make music sound better. "So, I've got this amp over here." "What is it?" "A tube amp." "I'm sick of tube amps." "You might like this one." "I like all tube amps, but I'm still sick of them." "This one's different." "They all say that." "No, this one really is." "Okay, so what is it?" "Single Ended Pentode." "I'm sorry you ended up with it." "Uh, no, it sounds really good." "No it doesn't." "I think you need to hear this thing." "What kind of output tube?" "EL-84." "Didn't they use that for clock radios?" "I didn't think it would sound good either." "Who built it?" "Justin Webber, from the forum." "I don't have a preamp." "You don't need one, it has a volume control." "How much power?" "3 watts." "I really don't have time for this." "It has a headphone jack." "Okay, send it." The days of emptying out the checking account on big speakers and expensive gear are over, and have been for a long time. Watching my house fall apart around me and putting a kid through college probably had something to do with that, and then of course there was that other thing. Also, working during the day and running a small business leaves very little time to pursue other endeavors, even something as simple as sitting down to listen, which is one of the reasons I adopted IEMs. It's a win-win, they sound great, block out distractions, don't disrupt others, and I don't have to put down the soldering iron. To be honest, I really haven't missed 2-channel listening in the conventional sense since getting into IEMs and headphones. Now, before I talk about Justin's amp, I want to talk a little bit about what I've be using to listen to it. My source is the Oppo BDP-93, which has an admirable analog output stage. There is certainly better, but there's also far worse. I believe the unit ran me around $550.00. I have no complaints, and considered it a major step up from the Denon transport I was using (in conjunction with the DACs in the Denon 3808ci receiver). The loudspeakers are my home-brew monitors using Radian 5208C coaxials mounted in 1 cu. ft. ported cabinets. Sensitivity is 95dB/2.83v, they go down to 50Hz, and can handle 200wpc. The crossovers are Radian designed (12dB octave/12dB octave), and I built them using Jantzen Supremes and Mills resistors. I built these for quasi-near field listening in a small space, using a sub, preferably two, which is how they're currently set up. Since the set up is primarily for HT and I have a center channel, the speakers are about 12 feet apart and just off the corners, which is good, because since I won't be able to use the subs -- I'm going to need the corners. The box shows up on one of the coldest days of the year. It's been sitting on the porch most of the day. I bring it into the house and put it in a safe place. Okay, this is my house -- there is no safe place. I ask everyone to try and not kick the box as they make their way to the bathroom. Don't ask. It's been a few days. I want to play, but I can't. I've been completely buried since October, and I'm working on my last set of crossovers. Finally caught up, I decide it's safe to open the box. To be honest, I'm mostly interested in the performance of the output jack for headphone use. The amp only has three watts, so it's of no real use to me as a long term solution. I go to Justin's website to see what I really have. I notice it's $900.00, and start thinking that's pretty expensive for a headphone amp. Well, not really, but it's still $900.00 for a guy that's perfectly happy with his FiiO E-17. Dave did a nice packing job, it took me about about an hour to find the amp. The amp is about the size of one of those big family Bibles. Compact and dense - heavier than I expected. Nicely finished all the way around. The output and power supply iron is small, but sporting a high quality painted finish. IOWs, it doesn't look like some guy did it in his shed with a can of Rustoleum. Same with the top plate, gorgeous. The wood finish is as good as I've seen, and I've seen a lot. There's nothing to down-rate cosmetically speaking -- A1, very nice. Time to dig out some cables. Really, do I even care about this? What's wrong with what I have up here? Hmm, let's see ... Some nice Monster from the Denon to the speakers, and then all HDMI. Okay, that won't work. I go down to the workroom and find my bag. This is the bag with all of my retired "audiophile" cables. I feel a tinge of guilt and shame. I see my Cardas 300B Mircotwin interconnects -- yes, those, grab the short ones, .5 meter will do nicely. Litz wire with a teflon/cotton dielectric, probably still one of the best deals in cable. I grab my spool of Supra 1.6 Classic and decide to go with bare wire terminations between the amp and the speakers. Hardcore. What else? Uh, let's see. Well, I guess that's it. Wow, this 2-channel stuff is pretty simple. I wire everything up and hit the power switch. I suppose I should let the thing warm up a little. Man, what a hassle. I start looking for a CD, which is a challenge since they're all downstairs in the basement with the other system. I find a little stack over by the movies and don't recognize any of them. I turn to Deb, "What are these?" "CDs." "Where did they come from?" "I bought them." "What for?" "So I could listen to them." "Thanks." At the top of the stack is "The Very Best of Cream". I really don't feel like listening to Cream, but the basement is really far away. I open the case and on the inside jacket it says, "Remastered from the original master tapes utilizing Apogee Electronics' AD1000 Reference Standard 20 Bit Analog to Digital Converter and UV22 Super CD Encoding." Impressive. I have no idea what any of that means. I decide I'm going to just put it in and hope that it doesn't sound terrible like most of my other stuff. I notice that the tubes are lit up, and that's warmed up enough for me. In goes UV22 Super Encoded Cream. The first song is called "Wrapping Paper". I've never heard it before. I'm not sure if I like the song or not, and the mix is typical of the time period - some instruments coming out of the left speaker and the rest coming out of the right. It sounds nice though. I got lucky, it's a good recording. I get up to go sit in the chair, and before I do, I turn it up just a little. UV22 Super Encoded Cream is sounding pretty good. Deb wants me to tell her about the amp. I tell her I don't know anything about the amp. She wants to know why I don't know anything about the amp. I tell her that I'm a speaker guy and that I'm not supposed to know anything about the amp. She asks me why my speakers sound different. I ask her if she'd like to know something about the amp. She asks me if I plan on buying the amp. I remind her that we have to buy Colter's LaScalas first. I tell her that one good recording isn't enough to go on. She says that maybe we should think about buying the amp. Yeesh woman, seriously? You guys know how this works. It's new, it's different, it puts a different spin on everything in your collection, and it's fun. We listened for several hours before shutting down for the evening. Deb never once asked to watch TV, and in 25 years of marriage, this was the first time she ever spent an entire evening listening with me. I'm having a terrible time critically evaluating this amp, since in effect, the music keeps getting in the way. It's been since Saturday, and I'm sill waiting to get used to the sound so I can honestly approach it. Single Ended anything is not my thing. I've only had two experiences with it, once with the Wrights, which I thought produced some of the most wretched sound I'd ever heard, and the Welborne Apollos, still on my short list as producing some of the most amazing sound I'd ever heard. What a contrast between those two sets of monoblocks, having nothing in common whatsoever except for the Single Ended designation. So where does this thing fall? This particular amplifier is Single Ended Pentode -- and I always thought pentode was a "dirty" word of sorts. However, after four days of non-stop listening, and the flashing of the television screen reduced to about zero, it's obvious we've stumbled onto something special. I can see why Dave felt compelled to send it to me. This amplifier's strength lies in its ability to spread things out and pull the layers apart a bit. Everything is laid bare, and it's done in a wonderfully rich and non- fatiguing way. The sound is textured and vivid. We found ourselves watching a lot less television and listening to a lot more music. Notice I keep saying "we" and not "me", and this is because the whole family has been enjoying it. Ian and me played Yugioh for three hours on Sunday night, completely forgetting about the movie we had planned to watch. Ian is 10, and really digs Elton John -- so we did a lot of Elton John that night. I was trying really hard to listen to the amp, but it was impossible because of Ian's singing. I instead found myself wondering why he was so engaged. Ian is not shy by any stretch, but he's not the the type to burst out into song either. This small amp is a music machine. I never once thought about the fact that I only had three watts at my disposal. I think one of the bigger surprises is how balanced it sounds. I was really expecting the sound to be somewhat tipped up, but that's not how it sounds at all. It has all of those things that good tube amps are supposed to have, and then some. I'm glad I no longer feel the need for the higher SPLs, as it affords me the ability to get back into tube audio without the sizable investment. I also never felt the need for a preamp, which can only mean that I was dialing right into the sweet spot. I've been hovering between 7 and 9 o'clock on the attenuator for the majority of the time, and apparently, this is the place to be with this speaker/amp combination. There is a "rightness" to the sound that makes you want to keep on listening, and the imaging is phenomenal. Regardless of cost, I think the sound is scary good, and this amp should be given strong consideration.

How about some high def pics of those beauts? I'm sure that Youthman will drive up and photograph them for you. Sounds like he has nothing to do these days.... Ron

Sounds good but can I just bring the RB 35's instead? Fresh speakers, fresh fish...old speakers, old fish...your call.

I say we meet at my restaurant for a klipsch night lol bring the p39s ill hook them up to our Stereo in the back

Now before we were so rudely interrupted, I was about to call Mark a dirty rotten scoundrel. No, no, that's not it. (sorry Mark but an emoticon seemed in order) Yes, Mark, it is possible to ascertain a minor difference, usually worse, in the sound of cable, but my question is why? There's a standard for cables. Build to the standard and then get on to more important aspects of fine tuning a system. The only real reason there are all those fancy cable out there is not for better engineering, not for better sound, not to address a failure in the rest of the audio chain, but merely to make gobs and gobs of money. Just think of the markups on this stuff. Get some Home Depot wire, put a fancy sleeve on it, add some capacitance or resistance, or whatever you've got lying around, it really doesn't make any difference because it's all voodoo anyways. The result. Wallah you've got high end snake oil the benefits of which nobody can deny, nor prove, and no means to qualitatively or qualitatively measure it. The reason I get incensed over cable and wires when people try to push them on this forum (not many and no not you Mark), is that we should remember that we all serve an instructional function here. We are not just here to debate. One of the reason Klipsch sponsors this Forum is because we serve as a technical base for helping people with little or knowledge of audio. In other words, mystified souls come here all the time and ask questions about this or that. Now to my mind, do we really want to encourage people to go out and waste money on cables before they've dealt with the basics? Before they've adopted tweaks and upgrades with proven provenance. Let's face it if your a newbie and you go out and buy some magic rocks, then you really haven't lost much money, just a sense of innocence. Now if you start chasing cables your being conned into wasting great gobs of money. That's why I get pumped up about this, so the newbies and lurkers don't get a bum steer. Now, onto a different aspect of this debate. Mark you mentioned turntable cables. Isn't the real issue with those cables the need to deal with the fact that you are transmitting a really tiny signal which will then be amplified at the phono section, and thus you don't want to lose any of the signal on it's short path to the phono section? I really don't know for sure, but I'm assuming that's the critical factor, especially given the teeny, tiny wires on pick up arms. Finally, what cables did you personally recommend to go between the Blueberry and the Pcats. Given your attention to all aspects of the development of those units, I'm sure you wouldn't possibly neglect the impact of cable on the transfer of signals between the two.

I've spoke with Robert White, aka Bodark, several times over the last couple months to keep updated on this. The city of Hope, is trying to push Mrs Klipsch out of the train station where she has the Paul W. Klipsch Memorial Museum. The city wants to take over the building to make it an Arts Council building. The city has even gone so far as to lock the doors with chains and locks so that Mrs Klipsch and Bodark can't even get in the building!! Mrs Klipsch has had to retain an attorney to fight the city! The city this past week told her she had to be out of the building by the 31st!! Her attorney said she has rights to the building and they are fighting it. Very sad situation. Mrs. Klipsch is 98 years old and does not need this stress. SHAME ON HOPE, AR!

Well I managed to get the other one unboxed anyway. My daughter had a play last night and after dinner and all that I didn't get home until 12:00. Then today she's on stage playing music and tomorrow has another play. In-laws are here and now I have to go out AGAIN and feed them. It ain't easy man....

Your going to love the way they sound, and they do sound as good as they look, like Dean I have heard them, and I was impressed but I did have a sticker shock. To give people a better idea of the size stand next to one in another pic. dtel I am probably not the right guy for that job. I make most anything look tiny.... I could see Billy carrying them into his home . One under each arm Ohh jeez , 2 channel , how the hell did I get here ?

Thanks man! Onward and upward. Slainte!

I don't see Billy lugging the 39's around but if he still has the KLF 30's he could bring those and we could do a shootout with my Chorus II's and you're RF7 II's . That would be interesting . Can't fit the chorus II's in my sedan so I might need a little assistance in that regard .

Just found this website, as a klipsch owner you guys are priceless. Note to Ben: iv been through a few wife's, you are just adjusting your current needs to your impending lifestyle. You are not out of Audio, men with taste always return, and everytime it happened to me, I end up with better shit! You want to know how rare you are ? how many of us have friends who have the taste we do ? All droll over our systems, but do nothing to build their own. you sir ARE class. I'll raise a Guinness in respect to you.

Well??? Inquiring minds want to know.

We OWN the night; better to see when others can not.

x

I thought the beer is what made the blonde beautiful.

That's why you deal with people that have good feedback . There's a lot of people out there (like me) that aren't trying to screw someone over. If you guys want to talk about the dangers of using paypal or whatever, do it in another thread. Anyone interested in one of my items doesn't have to worry about that . If you want you can pm me and we can exchange phone numbers if you prefer to talk about any of these items over the phone. If your local your welcomed to come over and take a look and listen also.

I remember hearing David Wilcox perform live at an outdoor space in Chattanooga a number of years ago. During his sound check, he used his voice to do a frequency sweep, and told the (awful) soundman what to change in the eq. The performance was one of the best acoustic events I have heard in that venue. Bruce

Then you know that eliminating the hard drive as a current or future culprit is a good idea. However to your point the problem is more likely not the hard drive.

It sounds like the files may be garbage (or bad rips). How much memory does your laptop have? What application are you using for music playback? Are you transcoding or down/up sampling the files? What USB method are you using: ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound, Kernel Streaming? A bad hard drive would be on the very bottom of my troubleshooting list. Go grab the J.River Media Center demo and give that a try if you haven't already. Very helpful forums and a solid getting started guide is included.

In my experience building a few cabinets for subs and speakers, Baltic Birch is the way to go. Easy to work with and a lot less messy than MDF. MDF is horrible in terms of dust and mess....really bad for your lungs. Baltic Birch is just excellent in terms of lack of voids and strength. I have not tired Apple Ply, but hear it is also excellent. I rarely use MDF these days....mostly to spare my lungs from the mess. MDF is more dense, heavier and more homogeneous than the BB I have found. But, I prefer working with BB than MDF. BB holds screws way better than MDF. Personally, I prefer BB or some good grade plywood.

Just thought I would let you guys know what I went with on my upgrade. After much agonizing, I went with the SVS PC 13 Ultra cylinder. With the space I had to work with it was the best fit. My wife says it looks like we have a water heater in the corner of the living room. She didn't give me to much grief though. I gotta say I just love this sub. After using a SPL meter to calibrate my system I was just blown away. I've never had it so good. I finally got a complete system that I'm happy with. This sub absolutely blows my old Klipsch sub away. Everything turned out better than I hoped. Money well spent for sure. I can't say enough about the customer service from SVS either. They were very patient with all my questions on the phone and many emails. It's gonna be a great weekend to demo my new setup!

heyyyyy me first me first lol I'm hoping to purchase his entire lascala trio corns and heresys tomorrow I can't wait to see those p39s. P39s paired with mcintosh going to be heavenly Is there a Charleston Klipsch forum member listening session in the works???

Not yet. I am working all day trying to catch up from missing yesterday....

Bill, I would be happy to do a trade. Cash for speakers!! Speakers for cash!!

I'm good for it on the 29th of March if it hasn't happened yet. Think I can volunteer at least one more. Group of Klipsch heads working around there might get noticed. Dave

Not close at all. I have no sound except of the Yamaha 150! I used to have a small system that came with the boat, but when it crapped out, I didn't replace. I like peace and quiet when I fish. You have power hooked up to those Pals yet?

Scott, I meant to ask you how much sound you had in your Pathfinder. Somehow I'm thinking JL M770's, JL M10IB subs, JL MHD 900/5 amp & Fusion IP700. How close am I?

Billy, Lookin' good. Get those spikes on them puppies! They sound better than they look. I've been a Klipsch fan and user for over 30 years. These are the absolute Klipsch pinnacle, imho. Enjoy, Scott

Your going to love the way they sound, and they do sound as good as they look, like Dean I have heard them, and I was impressed but I did have a sticker shock. To give people a better idea of the size stand next to one in another pic. dtel I am probably not the right guy for that job. I make most anything look tiny....

OK, you beat my 9 hour trip for my RF-83s, but man, what a pair you have now! Vero is only 2 hours from me but something kept me from making the drive...... Hmmmm, was it my schedule? No. Was it the size of my vehicle? Uh, no again. Was it the size of my WALLET??????? Absolutely. Seriously nice score, and you can add me to the list of jealous members here. Ron

Congratulations, they are big and heavy, and pretty so you really don't want to drop one. Very nice

You mean that my barbed wire speaker wire will not give me a sharper sound ?????

Yup I do. thank you for the kindness. I actually just finished Brads amp simply wonderful results from the bench... Did a bit of tweaking on my parts list. The P-P EL84 is getting 18watts 20-20khz and peaks of 40.5 watts when I was testing in the mid band. Ill do a separate post tomorrow... long story short... was super happy with the test bench results... I took the extra time out and went into the NOS bins and tested what Im shipping... I think he will approve.

Dean, Super kind words... thank you!.

That is a great offer, this forum has great members!

OH! OH! OH! Me...Me... I want to be a "Sticky God". [] Oh... Wait a minute... That almost sounds a little dirty doesn't it? [:$] Never mind. []

I totally agree with the 'Sticky Thingy" as this is very valuable information for a lor of people. Let the Sticky Gods prevail.....>!

you CAN improve the H3 crossover. REMOVE IT FROM THE INPUT CUP and mount it to the cabinet. darn spindly legged input cup. [:@]