xcjago

Hey I thought you returned your PB12 cuz you weren't satisfied with it. You got another one?

One possibility is that you aren't used to hearing good bass. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, a lot of rap songs have loads of bass in the 40-50hz range. Crappy subs tend to accentuate this range and make it sound even louder, whereas a true subwoofer will not do this and may seem quieter. Why don't you fire up some dvd movies like Titan AE, or Lord of the Rings, if you want to hear some real bass? I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything here, I just think that you may be used to listening to that 100-watt pioneer sub, and not be used to hearing really deep bass. Also, the gain really doesn't mean anything. Some manufacturers make it so that gain increases the volume really fast to make it look like they have a lot of headroom, but they really don't.

double post

Ya, it really just depends on what you're looking for. Higher dB above 30hz, or higher dB from 20-25hz.

Just speculating here, but the Sub-12 probably has higher output than the PB-10 above 30hz. There's a big 'ol debate going on at AVS right now comparing the PB-10 to the LFM-1 and it's pretty much the same thing. PB-10 doing better below 25hz, and LFM-1 doing better above it.

In this review: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html The KSW-15 hit 87dB at 20hz. The RSW-15 hit 93dB at 20hz. That is equal to two KSW-15. The RSW-15 is no doubt the better sub in every way. They are not equally loud down low. And for those of you who would like to pick a fight with me, I have heard both of these subs personally.

---------------- On 3/9/2005 12:41:37 PM sivadselim wrote: anyone can make a sub that's cheap and loud at 25Hz. but it may sound like crap otherwise. ---------------- Really? Can you please point out a subwoofer that has high output at 20 and 25hz but sounds like crap otherwise? And can you please provide evidence as to why it sounds like crap? It seems to me that if it were so easy to make a cheap sub have high output at 20hz and 25hz, then wouldn't all subwoofers be able to do it?

Well, the 16-46 is -3dB at 16hz, and typically reaches down to 13hz in most rooms. How deep do you need it to go? Two 16-46s would be awesome.

So instead of running away, he decides to stand there and take pictures? What a trooper!

BTW, I don't just read reviews. I have also done my own testing. I've measured the SPL, FR, and THD of my subwoofer. If I had enough money I would go buy a sunfire and test it myself.

minn_male42, is everything you know based off of personal experience? I'm sure there are some things that you believe in that you read in a book or heard from someone else. If measurements are so useless then why do these professionals take them and publish them? Why does anybody bother reading them? They should all just say, "Hey our measurements don't really mean anything, you should just go listen to it yourself. Perhaps YOU don't care for measurements or for me to quote them, but I'd wager that there are some people who do appreciate seeing the numbers. So why don't you quit this personal agenda you have against me and stop trying to silence me. I am not giving biased opinions or spreading lies. I am giving facts. Even theEar admitted it. If you want to argue with facts, then you are the one who looks like a fool.

BTW, a blind man can tell if two objects are different colors. Let's say you have two shirts, one black one white. If you take them out into the sun, the black one will absorb more sunlight and become hotter than the white one.

---------------- Yes Sunfire subs have a higher THD than SVS or HSU or Velo HGS.Its a proven fact.And... The original post was about SELLING an SVS to get a Sunfire.Can you not comprehend the poster may prefer a smaller sub doing a GREAT job,in place of a larger one doing a GREAT job? ---------------- Yes, thank you for confirming what I have been trying to say this whole time. Of course I can understand that he may want a smaller sub that will still do a great job. Did I ever say the Sunfire was a bad sub? NO. Did I ever say he shouldn't buy the Sunfire? No. Did I say that it will have higher THD? Yes. He asked what the differences there would be between the two and I gave it. I even said somewhere on the first page that the Sunfires are the best you can get for the size. I guess where we differ now is whether or not this increased THD is audible. I think it all depends at what volume levels you are playing at and what type of bass you like. What I may prefer may not be what someone else will prefer. I believe in taking things in a more scientific viewpoint. I need to see the numbers to confirm that what I am hearing is accurate. This has nothing to do with my age or my "lack of experience." There are plenty of "mature" people who have the same viewpoint. Take Ed Mullen for example, they guy who wrote the SVS PB10 review and a few others for Secrets of HomeTheaterHiFi. He is an engineer and believes that numbers and detailed testing are required to accurately judge the performance of a subwoofer. Just take a look at his latest review: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/krix-seismix-3-mk2-subwoofer-1-2005.html Heck, I don't even understand all the tests that he did. Thanks a lot minn_male42 for assumming that my beliefs were based on a "lack of experience" as opposed to a true methodology used by many experienced and "mature" experts.

I wasn't going to say anymore but you keep spreading lies. I never said SVS was soooooo much better. I said the Sunfire will have more THD and it does. That's a fact. I'm sorry you can't take any negative comments about Sunfire or about your sub. And there you go again with age thing. I think you are the one who needs to grow up. I DO know that placement can affect subwoofer performance. In fact I have my sub placed in the corner of the room since it gives me the best response. How do you know that the CT-150 in that review was not placed in a corner as well? The reviewer doesn't say where he put it, however, it seems likely that he would spend some time to place it where it sounds best. btw, I'll be 24 in two months.

Oh ya I'm sorry. You must have those magic carpet rugs that give you a 15dB boost at 20hz. LOL, I'm done with this. I care about the numbers and you obviously don't, end of story.

LOL, that's actually the review I was looking at. If you LOOK at the graph you can see that it is down about 5dB by 25hz. By 20hz it's down another 10dB. So let's say -15dB by 20hz, not 20dB. Maybe you should get your eyes checked.

And you still have not answered my question ears. How many SVSubwoofers have you had in your house to listen to???

---------------- On 2/17/2005 5:51:37 PM TheEAR wrote: ---------------- On 2/16/2005 11:38:01 AM xcjago wrote: True I have not heard the Sunfire subs, however, I know that 10% and higher THD is audible. That is why Tom Nusaine uses it as a limit in his subwoofer testing. And yes I know all about the Velodyne DD subs. They are very nice subwoofers with amazingly low THD. ---------------- If you have not hear one stop acting like a parrot and repeating what Tom N said or Paul Z said.People here want a bit of personal experience,not numbers thrown at them. My point is YOU HAVE NO SERIOUS EXPERIENCE with a Sunfire and should not give FABRICATED opinions. Thank you ---------------- Perhaps you should learn what an opinion is. Giving numbers like SPL and THD are factual figures not opinions.

Graduating this summer with a bachelors in computer science. Audio is my hobby. Only two real subwoofers I have owned are the HSU STF-2 and now the SVS PB10. I've listened to numerous subs from klipsch, velodyone, b&w, martin logan, and others. p.s. I suggest upgrading your subwoofer. The CT-150 measures -20dB by 20hz.

---------------- On 2/17/2005 4:04:13 PM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 2/17/2005 3:54:19 PM xcjago wrote: Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK? ---------------- right.... YOU have golden ears.... and can hear bass much better than people who are paid to review speakers and other equipment for a living.... LOL so.... even though we get to pay more money.... the sub is distorting and causing people with less discerning ears to hear more bass.... and people like us might actually prefer that "kind of sound"... LOL and all of these comments are coming from someone who has never even heard a sunfire subwoofer!!!!! ROTFLMAO please keep posting - your comments just keep getting more and more humorous!!!! so - do you review speakers and/or subwoofers for a living or anything even remotely related to music or do you just read speaker reviews and test results for the basis of your "golden ears" and experience which places you above us mere mortals?????? please share with us some of your vast experience in your 22 years of life!!! LOL ---------------- I never said my ears were better than theirs. Everything I posted comes from "expert" reviewers just like the ones you posted. You are simply putting your "experts" up against mine. And what does my age have to do with anthing? That is called an ad-hominem attack and is a logical fallacy. The SVS PB12-Ultra/2 can put out 109dB at 20hz and 123dB at 40hz measured OUTDOORS with less than 10% THD. Moving indoors would result in 115dB at 20hz and 129dB at 40hz all at less than 10% THD. If you think any sunfire can match this then you are sorely mistaken. link: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201221&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1

Yes, yes, I have already read those reviews. They don't mention THD because they didn't measure it. Also, not everyone knows what THD sounds like. Some people mistake THD for more bass. Anyways, I'll just say this: The Sunfire's are very nice subwoofers and you probably won't find anything better for the size. However, you will be paying more money and there's a good chance that your THD will be higher. But even then, you may actually like that kind of sound or you may not even notice it at all. OK?

LOL, alright then. I guess the THD (which gets as high as 30% on some of the Sunfires) is only audible when you are personally listening to the sub. If you've never listened to the Sunfires (like me) then the THD doesn't exist and it's all just a bunch of numbers that don't mean anything. Of course if I go listen to a sunfire now, it won't make any difference since my mind is already biased right? I might actually try to listen for that high THD that doesn't exist. =D p.s. Hey ears, here's some numbers for you to chew on: Velodyne DD-18: 100dB @20hz Servo Setting 8 - 1.85% THD SVS CS-Ultra: 100dB @20hz - 4.93% THD Both from Secrets of HomeTheaterHifi. So you are telling me that you can audibly tell the difference between 1.85% THD and 4.93% THD? And at the same time you tell me there's no difference audibly between 4.93% THD and 30% THD (Sunfires)? Tell me ears, how many SVS subwoofers have you listened to personally?

You are obviously missing the point. Yes, I have not heard the sunfire subs (although I would definately like to someday). HOWEVER, the information that I posted about THD is FACT. You can deny it all you want and say that it's not audible but the THD is still there. I never said that testing and measurements were more important than personal listening. I think they are both important. I think the measurements are integral to understanding the true performance of a subwoofer. If you are looking for a subwoofer that is loud, deep, and has low THD, then measurements are crucial to understanding this. If you are satisfied with simply listening to a subwoofer, then that is fine for you. I am not cut and pasting just any info from the web. I am posting quotes from professional, qualified experts. These people have done extensive testing on subwoofers and know a lot more about them than you do. There is nothing wrong with me posting their quotes here. I am not taking them out of context and I am not claiming them as my own. I think the original poster has a right to know about the sunfire's THD. Are you refusing to believe that the THD is there just because "I" haven't listened to the sunfire myself? That's just rediculous. What do you want me to do? Get Tom Nousaine or Mark Seaton over here to tell you about it?

Just because you have heard the sunfire subs does not make your opinion more valid. I guess you're one of those people who thinks that detailed testing and measuring of a sub means nothing and that all that matters is "hearing the sub." The funny thing is that a lot of people don't realize that THD does not always sound "bad." In fact some people like the THD that some subs produce (Sunfire) because they think it makes it sound louder. I think I'll take the word of Tom Nousaine and Mark Seaton over yours.

Also here's something Mark Seaton posted on AVSForum: "True, and in fact this is really only of concern for some of the Sunfires and other heavy limiters driven well past their limiting point. With some of the Sunfires you can actually crank up the 20Hz signal and get more 40Hz than 20Hz" Link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485911&perpage=20&highlight=sunfire%20signature&pagenumber=4 I suppose you know more than him as well eh?