Woodog
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Hello all!
I use a couple pairs of my speakers (Cornwalls Heresys) as a PA for my church.
We recently built a new building - and, as usual, no thought to acoustics was given until they found the room too lively.
I wasn't asked to be a part of the planning, but I did get wind of what was currently going on with 'fixing' the sound.
What do you think of this plan of attack outlined in the emails below. I personally would love to see tapestrys and carpets instead of acoustic panels (boring).
All help and advice appreciated. We don't have the funds to do what they are considering doing, and I feel they will hate the look.
I know this place knows audio! Help!!
and many thanks....
Forrest
the email:
HI guys and gal,
The bit of homework that I’ve done so far on acoustic panels.
Given our space in the social hall- 45’ x 50’ x 10 or 12’ ceilings, Tile
floor, dry wall ceilings and walls, with some glass. Here’s what I’m
finding with some consistency.
An acoustic panel 2’x 4’x 2” covered in a hemp/jute material with sound
dampening filling, runs about $60 per panel. An on-line analysis of
these features by ATS Acoustics suggests a minimum of 57 panels and 86
would be on the high end. This would run somewhere around $3,600 with
shipping.
Speaking with a representative of Audio-Mute Corp. suggests a lower
expenditure. They state for this size room you would need 15-20% wall
coverage with acoustic panels. Approx. 40 panels would be equal to that
amount with a similar price tag. With shipping an approximate cost would
be $3,000.
Another member's suggested company (Acoustimac) has the same size panels for
$49.95. (The $25 panel noted in the e-mail is much smaller.) The
minimum number of panels suggested for the space is 50, $2,500 prior to
shipping.
I considered the idea of building our own but I’m not sure would could
make ones that pass a fire inspection. Acoustic panel are made to be
flame resistant.
There are such things as ceiling baffles, but I’d personally hate to see
stuff hanging from the ceiling. As it is, the mounts for these acoustic
panels will make the space pretty unusable for hanging an art show.
Each panel requires a hooking system (a flange) mounted permanently into
the drywall. We could remove the panel but the flange would be
displayed. The two inch thickness and relative thin panel (24” wide)
means that only very small works could be hung, for fear of snagging the
jute covers.
I forwarded the following attachments to my committee but haven’t had any feedback yet.
Something to chew on. -
wow... thread from back a ways, and you're still at it with the hi-fi history.
You have a great site, and you KNOW you're always welcome in Bowling Green. [Y]
peace,
Forrest
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Well, I'm going to keep them. The Klipschorns will go to some lucky new
home in November, but first they will hang out with my son in his
apartment for a few months.If it were just for the sound alone, the Khorns with a sub that dug to subsonic levels would be best, but the history of these Patricians coupled with their beauty makes me want to hang on to them. Plus, I can always score another set of Khorns - not to make them sound 'common' as they are far from that - but certainly more available than Patricians. Plus the patricians look good in the house!
I'm thinking of putting together a 'listening' weekend ...
either
7/21-22
7/28-29
or
8/4-5
I'll be a single man for about 5 weeks and can have lots of speakers in the house.
I'll have my 1976 Klipschorns & Patricians in the 4 corners, 1976 Cornwalls and Tannoy SGM 10s there as well.
Scott 299B and 355/208 combo, and possibly the Altecs will be up and
running by that point. Not sure.
Of course, if you wish to bring some of your speakers/amps/turntables/etc. you would be welcome and ENCOURAGED to do so.
any interest? Bowling Green KY is a pretty cool vacation spot if you
want other things to do. Corvette Museum, Mammoth Cave, great local
eating places.
let me know... this would be fun to do
Forrest -
Gary, I have that horn in my newly restored Patrician 800s.
Fantastic imaging, VERY good low level sound, extremely efficient. I don't think you could lose money on these if you didn't like them.
Forrest
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Last year I reglazed all the windows and went through the main listening space to eliminate all rattles, buzzes and squeaks. Plaster walls don't usually rattle. [
]Forrest
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Thanks Bill!
Seti first turned me on to that schematic, but it took another user to
remind me. I sent the crossovers to Bob Crites, who speaks the language
you do and truly 'gets' speakers. He rebuilt them as they were and
commented on how some of the specs were different... had me measure
resistance and all that stuff.
Speaking of stuff, I wish I understood that stuff, it would make it
seem more legit somehow. I did trace the wires somewhat and I could
figure out how they needed to be wired. I was so meticulous taking it
apart that I was certain how I found it was the correct wiring.
Thank goodness for the internet!
My son brought some of his dubstep music over, very cool genre and we let it crank. Oh my goodness. These are VERY choice.Checking out Beethoven at the moment.
Life is good
Forrest
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(the below is from an email to Seti, who's been in the loop
for a while. ... just didn't want to type out the thoughts again)
After getting them into the house yesterday and hooking them up to my
H.H. Scott 355/208 combo, it was something of an anti-climax. They seemed anemic, and
while the bass was clearly 'there', things were muddy and not well
defined.Something wasn't right, or if everything WAS right I couldn't see why folks would be excited about these monsters.
I put the 355 into mono mode and couldn't locate the 'invisible' center
speaker, so figured I had wired them incorrectly even though I had marked EVERYTHING as it came out of the boxes - even down to which screws went where on the cabinets. Oh well, it was late and there was no time (actually too tired) to fix them
last night. I was SO disappointed.
Got back into both boxes today to check against a schematic JJBlue84 had posted over at Audiokarma.org.
Get this - the tweeters and the squawker were both wired red to red (pos) and black to black (neg).
The schematic called for everything EXCEPT the 12" woofer to be wired Black to Red (pos) and Red to black (neg)
As I said, I had marked EVERYTHING as it came out of those boxes, so there's
something of a mystery going on. I think it may explain the use of
finishing nails on the front of the box.
Here's my theory, they didn't sound 'right' , but certainly better than
your average stereo, so somebody at some point tried to go inside, and
stripped the screws off the front molding because that is the WRONG way
to get inside, even though it would appear 'easier'. When they realized
the effort involved, plus the fact that they were positioned a few feet
off the ground to begin with (and weigh 315 pounds!!!) they probably said 'screw it'.
Now ... with the speakers wired correctly, I could find the invisible center speaker with the source on mono, meaning they were in phase with each other.The sound???
OH MY... really good. Great sound stage and clarity.Khorn slayer? No way, but every bit a kissing cousin.
I still prefer the authority and muscularity of the horn loaded bass, but the Patricians deliver. Of that there is NO doubt.My son came over a few moments ago and brought some techno music. They definitely dig deeper than the Khorns.
The supreme test for me was how they sound at low volume. It's one of the features that made me fall in love with Cornwalls and Klipschorns - delicious. full, sweet and clear at low volumes.
The Patricians are the same way. As they say, no replacement for displacement.
They are not as efficient as the Khorns, so it takes more juice, but the
208 at ~30 watts a side (7591 tubes) is plenty loud if I want it, and
really nice at low volume (most of the time I listen at low volume). The Altec 1658a mono blocks are rated at 40 watts (EL84 based). So when I get those going it'll be interesting how they sound.
Here are the resistance values I measured from the drivers
Box one: measured at the terminals with crossovers in the chain and the speaker by itself (marked alone)
30W - 6.0 5.0 (alone)
LF (12") - 6.3 8.7 (alone)
HF (mid horn) 1.8 13.2 (alone)
VHF (350) .5 7.1 (alone)
Box two:
30W - 6.0 5.0 (alone)
LF (12") - 6.2 8.4 (alone)
HF (mid horn) 1.7 13.6 (alone)
VHF (350) .5 9.3 (alone)
Forrest -
Good news is... They're DONE. Well, almost done. Have to get a few
screws to replace warped ones, but functionally, they are DONE.
Sat back and listened for a bit in the garage last night. Nice.Will move them into the Khorn spot soon - importantly, corners. They are definitely not meant for near field listening, I
don't think.This has been a fun and highly satisfactory
project.
I'm waiting for some pics to load up and then I'll post a link.
Here ya go, pics here
above link takes you here
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/Patrician%20800/Done5142012/
will post a video that will tell you nothing about how they
sound. In fact I guarantee they'll sound just like your computer
speakers.
all best,
Forrest -
Got one of them finished!
Got one of em finished and the other one will have to wait until tomorrow.
Also, have to check to be sure the woofer is in phase with the rest of
the cabinet. I hooked them up like they came out (I had marked
EVERYTHING) but in looking closer, all the other drivers in each cabinet
are red to positive except the woofer, which is red to negative. Don't
think it's supposed to be that way.
However, the sound, NICE. First music across them was Scarlet Begonias
(Grateful Dead) which just happened to be on the radio. The attenuators
go from nothing to wide open, so there's a lot of color available with
these babies. tuned the station to a hip/hop techno station and the low end really shows itself!
Khorn slayer... probably not, but they aren't in the spots the
Khorns occupy, nor are they being driven by the same amp either.
Can't wait to get the other unit together tomorrow and listen to them together.
Pics of the finished one here
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r...0800/finished/
(which will tell you NOTHING about the way it sounds, but still)... also a cameo by my friend Tim who is another crazy audio enthusiast
Forrest
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Bill, the link worked fine. I really like the back panel on your pair.
!!
Forrest
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Waiting for pics to upload to photobucket as I write. Yesterday found
some detail that had to be done with clamping and cracks in the molding.
Used shims made from the old speaker cloth to put in the holes so the
molding would screw in snugly. They were previously stripped which
explained the finishing nails used on the front. At any rate, the
directions on the glue said clamp for 30 minutes but do not stress the
joints for 24 hours, so this afternoon the boxes will be ready to put
the speakers back in.
I have the crossovers mounted and got another two boards cut that I'll
mount the attenuators on (I wanted to keep the original panels untouched). I won't stain those since they will be hidden
from sight, but I'm sure it'll look okay.
Bob Crites does really fine work as you well know!
Oh, and if anyone stumbles on this thread who wants hi-rez photos of the
crossovers, just drop me a line and I'll send them to you.
so close...
Forrest -
Dang... didn't get them done this weekend. Will probably be next weekend.
Whoever decided not to standardize staple guns and staples should be shot. I spent a very frustrating Sunday afternoon looking for such and still didn't end up with the correct stuff.
Cabinets sure are pretty, though.
Forrest
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Update: I have the speaker cloth in. The crossovers are back.
Still have some minor blemish repair to do as well as a fabrication of a panel to mount the new attenuators in (pics will be forthcoming, but you'll see what I'm talking about). Removal of staples and the purchase of a staple gun to mount the fabric.
I think they'll be done by the end of the weekend. As always, I plan to take a LOT of pictures and post the link to them.
Colter - I will send you the old cloth as I promised. The stuff from WendelFabrics is pretty nice.
Excited? Yes! [
]Forrest
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Thanks Bill for an informative post on these beasties!
I'll have my crossovers coming back from Bob Crites and as soon as the grill cloth arrives I'll have them back up. The info on rotating the woofer is especially nice as I was intending to keep all drivers in their original orientation. I'll rotate it!
There was a pair in similar style on Ebay recently that didn't even get a nibble at $7500, so ya never know.
The plan was to keep these around for a year or so and enjoy them, then sell to finance a rebuild of my piano that I also bought, but after looking into the guts of the piano (a Baldwin model L from 1954) I realize it's not going to cost what I thought it would, especially doing the work myself, which I enjoy, so knowing me I'll probalby keep these if the sound is pleasing enough. [
]On one of the speakers the quarter round molding shattered when coming off (my ignorance in how they were mounted) but I got it glued back together fairly well. Might get a woodworker to reconstruct a new one. There's NO way to replace the grill cloth without total disassembly - same goes for the molding.
Again, thanks for the information. I was fortunate to be able to get these and want to get them back as close as possible to original.
all best,
Forrest
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I finally got around to working on the cabinets. I used Howard's Restor-a-Finish (Walnut) and 0000 Steel Wool for application.
the before pictures show some preliminary cleaning with Murphy's Oil Soap
They are shaping up nicely, still lots of warts (discoloration, gouges, etc) but the restor-a-finish is a great product.
Forrest
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I was looking into cane for one of my projects and found this link.
http://www.franksupply.com/caning/press-in-caning.html#webbingsheets
Great project and I am glad that it found you. Many would have just raped and pillaged
The audiokarma folks suggested this site, so I'm just putting it out there.. also seems like a good resource
http://www.wendellfabrics.com/mellotonefabricsamples.html
Forrest
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I was looking into cane for one of my projects and found this link.
http://www.franksupply.com/caning/press-in-caning.html#webbingsheets
Great project and I am glad that it found you. Many would have just raped and pillaged
THANK YOU!!! I think this company will work fine.
Forrest
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So... how many of you put your finger under the kitchen sink stream to see how the water would behave?
(raises hand)
Forrest
Those look like EV 8HD horns (I have a pair of them myself). They are diffrection horns, and have wider dispersions when mounted vertically, with 120 x 90 degrees. Works the same way placing your finger just under one side of a water stream, and it deflects to the same side.Interesting seeing the horns vertically mounted. Seems like it would limit dispersion?
Bruce
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Man, those drivers really look like NOS compared to the cabinets!
I'd love to hear them. I recall looking at magazine pix of these things in awe back in the day.
Interesting seeing the horns vertically mounted. Seems like it would limit dispersion?
Dave
Murphy's Oil Soap and some 'oops' product to remove masking tape, some 000 steel wool and this is my first attempts to clean those cabinets... still lots of warts.. guess I'll live with 'em [
]There are also a lot of finishing nails on the front of the cabinets that broke off while trying to extract them (they don't really show, but they're definitely there). Gonna get a punch and some putty to fill the holes.
above link takes you here:
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/Patrician%20800/03_25_2012/
Forrest
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I need to get new grill cloth I think. Got any ideas where I can acquire it? It's pretty shot, and smaller than a cornwall enclosure.
It would probably work for Khorns, however....
Forrest
great stuff here. I too have a set of old 8HD horns and 1829 drivers. Forrest, are you going to reuse that old cane grille and if not, do you think it would be salvagable for other other projects? I have this pair of 1963 Cornwalls here and the cane is just disintegrated.
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Now you have to rent a building to set up a "Real Life Live Home Theatre". All you need now are a couple of old theatre seats with
chewing gum stuck on the bottom.
JJK
I have plenty of that on the bottom of the piano (seriously).
Forrest
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It was very kind of you to take that old crap off their hands 8-)
I'm your go-to guy for garbage removal. [
] -
It always helps to express interest... here's the rest of the 'take'
I asked if I could have the amps that drove the speakers... sure, they said. Lookit what was in there:
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/Amplifier-Altec1568a/
Do I want anything else related to the amps, they asked...
Lookit what was in there:
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/Projection%20Room/
Finally, I got a call asking if I wanted the big black speaker in the back of the theater... they needed it gone. why yes, yes indeed I'll help you get rid of it...An Altec Voice of the Theater A4 cabinet
2 515Bs, a 288-16G and the horn ... as well as a HUGE cabinet, along with the original packing list and instructions for assembly.
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/woodogs-world/vot/
anybody know anything about old projectors? :-)
Forrest
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also, the T-350 that I thought wasn't working was not working because of the badly oxidized attenuator. In fact, I'm pretty sure the atteuators are the reason the speakers sound like garbage. All drivers work. YAY!
The piano was the other thing I bought at the auction. :-)
Forrest
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Reducing Room Reverberation
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Excellent info Artto and Marvel!
I think the entire committee is looking at this thread now! [
]
I also think using curtains might have a good effect. I also think that having 100 or so folks sitting in upholstered chairs would calm the sound more than they realize.
The current 'sanctuary space' (as a Unitarian, can I use the word sanctuary?) anyway, I LOVE that space as there are no parallel surfaces and the acoustic is just 'wet enough' so that singing is wonderfully enhanced.
I also know it's easier to reduce reverberation than to add it - except by electronic means.
thanks again!
Forrest