chops

I've heard them before in quite a few different locations, most of which I installed and set up. I never cared for them that much. The bass was always too exaggerated. However, these were the original model. They may have improved since then.

---------------- On 4/20/2004 9:55:30 AM fabulousfrankie wrote: Have you considered building a sub? If you have basic carpentry skills and a few tools, there are plans online that you can follow and you can easily get the sub you need under $400. ---------------- Here's something for you to read. I'm trying to get more people into these. Please consider them at least. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=49194&sessionID={A866D98D-AE43-4800-BB9C-DACD1239DCAD} Also, for the very detailed original version.... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14179&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I have an 18" Klipsch pro driver that is in need of a new voice coil. Does anyone know how much it would cost to get this done? I'm not to sure on the model number any more, but I think it still might be in production and possibly used in one of the Cinema Series subs. All I know is that it has a cast aluminum basket, about an 8" big magnet, vented 3" voice coil, 800 watts max power, the freq response is 30-1000Hz, and the spider looks to be about 5". I think its efficiency is around 96-99dB @ 1 watt, and recommended sealed enclosure size was between 3-9 cubic feet. If I remember correctly, I bought it back in 1995 at Thoroughbred's Music for $342. Does anyone know which model this might be and if it could possibly get repaired? If so, how much do you think it might run? Thanks

Well, it's a long story, but I'll try to shrink it down some. I am an active member of the www.DIYAudio.com forum elsewhere on the web. I was just roaming around the forum one day when I saw a topic pop up that looked interesting. It had something to do with crossover design and history. So I stopped in to take a peak. Part way through it was a link to Seigfried Linkwitz website.... (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.htm) I obviously went to his site to see what it was all about. Come to find out, he designs and builds alot more than just crossovers! I saw all these neat looking loudspeakers and started reading up on them. Then the thing that really caught my eye was something about dipole subwoofers. Since at the time I was using a pair of Magnepans which are dipoles, I figured that a matching pair of dipolar subwoofers would work perfectly. After doing much reading on Seigfried's site, (almost the whole thing!), I went back to the DIY forum to do a search on dipole subs 'n such. (hehe, get it?! ) A-hemm...... Anyway, I just wanted to see what people were doing, if anything with dipole designs. Most of what I found was geared more towards the "point-source fullrange single driver" designs. I think there were only a few small threads actually devoted to dipole subs, so I of coarse read them and asked questions. What I found out was that there are certain things to look for in the T/S parameters. Just to name a few is a low Fs, a high QTS, and a high Xmax. The first one is needed, then second one I feel is needed but alot of people do what they want (more on this one in a minute), and the third I have proven is not required. Also, almost all the people I spoke to said that a traditional (monoploe) sub is required to reach the lowest octaves because their dipole subs could only reach down to about 40Hz. This is another one that I have proven wrong! Alright, now for the goods..... The drivers: After doing some hunting on the web, I came across these Pyle Pro PPA15 15" drivers. They are cheap, (about $35-45 each), 2.5" voice coil, Fs of 26Hz, Qts of .67, Xmax of 6mm, SPL of 93dB @ 1 watt, and can handle 250 RMS and 800 watts peak. Why did I choose this driver? Well, first off the price! Secondly, the specs match up pretty close to what's needed for an infinante baffle. The Fs (free air resonant freq) is 26Hz. The lower this number is, the lower the driver can reproduce bass. The Qts (or Total Q) which is Qms (measurement of the mechanical suspension system) and Qes (measurement of the electrical suspension system) combined is .67. The higher this number is, the better the driver keeps control of itself at the Fs. The Xmax (Maximum Linear Excursion) is only 6mm. Beyond this and the voice coil begins to leave the magnetic gap, the suspension becomes non-linear, and you get potential woofer damage and/or failure. Now for the baffles. I decided to go with a much larger baffle and larger drivers than anyone else because unlike them, I don't have a wife running my life, telling me what I can and can't do, and I don't care how big and ugly they are as long as they sound good. A good rule of thumb is that the larger the baffle, the lower the bass the subs will be able to reproduce. Mine are 48"H x 24"W x 24"D. Yes they're huge, but so are all the Heritage Klipsch. Except the Herseys. This is where I proved everyone wrong the first time about not being able to reproduce bass below 40Hz. For one, they make their baffles too small, and two, they use drivers with a much lower Qts of .40 - .50. When they do this, the driver gets sloppy around its Fs. Also, because they're using smaller drivers (10" - 12"), those drivers require a larger Xmax (due to their smaller cone area) to move enough air to reproduce any true sub-bass. Plus, those drivers are inefficient and require alot of power. Because of these drivers everyone uses, they have to build complex passive crossover networks with equalization built into them to help take out a huge peak in output around the crossover freq. They also have to use some type of subsonic filter well above the Fs of the driver to keep it under control and not get damaged. Because of these reasons, that's why everyone ends up using a traditional monopole sub (sealed/ported) to take over from 40-50Hz on down. Me on the other hand, made my baffles nearly double what Seigfried recommended. Remember, the larger the baffle, the farther the bass waves have to travel before they cancel eachother out, hence the lower freq output I'm getting. Because my Qts is higher, the driver has very good control of itself, giving a smoother freq response which means I need very very little equalization at the crossover freq, and no subsonic filter at the bottom end. On top of that, my drivers are efficient, meaning they require less power and a smaller Xmax. (Ever notice how little your Heritage Klipsch 15" drivers move at high volumes?) Same this goes for my dipole subs! Let me know if I left anything out. And please, by all means, go out and buy yourself four of these 15's, build yourself a couple of these baffles, and after breaking them in for a couple days, let me know what you think! You really can not go wrong for less than 200 bucks and get this kind of true audiophile grade bass.

---------------- On 4/27/2004 9:37:46 PM tankhokie wrote: lol chops, i was thinking to myself as i checked out your system, "that is probably what my setup would look like if i wasn't married" the kitty-proofing w/masking tape is nice. i am lucky my 2 cats don't mess with the components much. ---------------- Well trust me, I don't like having that thing taped up there. We have four cats, but only one of them goes back there. Say, do you want another cat?!

Those KG 4's look like they're in excellent shape. If it were me, I would go no higher than $275.01. Yes, that $.01 makes a difference with eBay auctions, trust me.

I just connect my laptop to my main system!

Actually, one of my brother's just informed me that Dunkin Donuts has been selling their own coffee for years now. I guess I need to get out more often.

---------------- On 4/27/2004 7:14:20 PM TBrennan wrote: Proud parent? What an odd way to express the purchase of consumer goods. Today I became the proud parent of a tube of toothpaste, a toilet cleaning brush and a spankin' new one pound bag of Dunkin Donuts coffee. ---------------- Dunkin Donuts has their own coffee now?! I'll have to check that out. Silly question, but where does one buy a bag?

There's a real nice pair of KG 4's on eBay right now with a little over 2 hours to go. The price is still under $200!! If I had a little extra cash, I would go for them myself right now! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=3092856531&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Yes, the Vifa drivers are very nice, indeed. Those are the same exact ones I have in my towers I built years ago....

---------------- On 4/25/2004 6:15:30 PM redtwo28 wrote: My sub does not work!!! Sat's work fine and everything is plugged in right, just no bass from the sub............ Any ideas??????? Woops... Promedia 2.1 ---------------- Kind of a crazy question, but did you try turning that little subwoofer knob on the left?

I for one do not care about personal attacts on me. It would take alot more than that to get rid of me! And the only kids I have are the 4 legged ones with lots of hair (fur). No wife either!!! Just four kittie-cats roaming around the house.

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ http://www.diyaudio.com And this is where I learned about dipole subs http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.htm Seigfried was even kind enough to include my website link on his. Scroll down to question # 23..... http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm Most likely, you can build a very competitive subwoofer at a fraction of the cost of a name brand one. Mine only cost a total of $185, which included all four drivers, wood, and screws. And I must add that even though I have probably heard well over a hundred different subs in the past, I have never ever heard anything that could compair to my dipoles!

Well, just to let you know, I don't have to "claim" about having anything. I can easily prove it, and here's the proof!

With that size room, you may want to consider a Klipsch RSW-15 15" sub(s) which have a bit of power behind them or the KW-120-THX sub. Although, you could maybe go with a Sunfire True Subwoofer Signature. OR!!!!!....... You could build your own.

You should seriously consider building some dipoles. They really are the greatest sounding subwoofers I have ever heard. However, if you decide to use those Tumult drivers, you'll have to do some serious EQ'ing to get them to sound right in an infinant baffle design. My drivers on the other hand, are an almost perfect match for dipoles, and require very very little EQ....

---------------- On 4/26/2004 1:59:52 PM SoundBroker wrote: ---------------- On 4/25/2004 9:14:17 PM chops wrote: ---------------- On 4/25/2004 9:01:24 PM Tweek wrote: nice sub! it can probably run right beside that $19k sub for a sliver of the price ---------------- Thanks! I bet it can hold its own pretty well against that monster. ---------------- Output wise...yes. Overall...probably not. This beast has the lowest group delay, the lowest distortion level, the highest linearity, highest efficiency and the most control of amplitude and phase of any sub ever measured. If anybody is familiar with Tom Holman's "The Hollywood Edge" test disc series and the infamous "boinker" tests which are just about the most brutal tests for a subwoofer imaginable...this is the sub that that disc was developed with and the only one that passes the tests perfectly. It was developed using an entirely new method of acoustical enclosure design called Parametric Acoustic Modeling (PAM). Here is a link to a brief description by Tom Holman of what PAM does... http://www.whise.com.au/popups/popup_tech_tom.pdf The sub will output 125db at any of the passband frequencies from 16 hz to 150hz with absolute linearity. We've had some pretty over the top designs, both home built and commercial, and nothing approaches this beast for overall performance. Yah, it is big and expensive, but it is the best. Cheers, Kevin The Sound Broker ---------------- Please, please, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing you or that sub at all. I'm just looking at it from a price to performance ratio. However, claims of it having the lowest group delay, the lowest distortion level, and the highest linearity may or may not be totally accurate. Sure, maybe at it's MAX output. But who plays it that loud all the time? Take my DIPOLE subs for instance..... They have vertually "ZERO" group delay at any level or frequency because they are not in an enclosure of any kind, just a large open baffle. The distrortion level is lower than most because they are so efficient, (I think somewhere around 106dB @ 1 watt/1 meter). Even at the highest volumes that I've played them, with any type of bass material, the drivers barely move and the amplifier barely gets warm over several hours of constant use. Linearity? With my Dipole subs, I can have my system playing at whisper levels late at night, or playing full blast in the middle of the day, and the bass quality and quantity sounds exactly the same, just louder. Plus, I have yet to hear a subwoofer system other than mine to be able to tell the minute differences between bass instruments. Anyway, both systems are good, I just feel mine would be the better bang for the buck, at any price.

---------------- On 4/26/2004 2:02:54 PM NOSValves wrote: That is a great deal on the Jolida for sure ! Just for kicks this one is even better scroll down to the bottom and check it out LOL !! Then read the fine print. http://www.newtube.com/content/estore_details.asp?product=49 ---------------- If you're talking about the $0.00 price tag, I'm gonna go buy 17 of them! LOL

Once I get an idea on how much it will cost, I'll probably be sending you my crossovers to be done in a couple months! I've seen pics of your work and can see you obviously know what you're doing.

OK everybody.... Let's just all kiss and make up! CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???!!!!

Yeah, but how much is that nasty thing?! I know that those drivers alone are about $500-600 each, especially those Aura 1808's.

---------------- On 4/25/2004 9:01:24 PM Tweek wrote: nice sub! it can probably run right beside that $19k sub for a sliver of the price ---------------- Thanks! I bet it can hold its own pretty well against that monster.

My dipole subs are.... About 115dB from 16-90Hz, give or take a few dB. THD is low enough to where I nor anyone else can notice it (the cones hardly move) 125lbs each channel 24" x 24" x 48" Four 15" Pyle Pro PPA15 Drivers Flat from 90Hz down to 20Hz, and only down -3dB at 16Hz. Carver M400t running @ 4 ohms providing 300 watts per channel (never even gets warm) $160 for all four drivers, $25 for .75" MDF and screws. I haven't found a pair of speakers yet that these dipole subs don't match up to perfectly.