SomeGuy15

" i did, i tested BOTH systems and decided ont eh 4.1" Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't u buy the 4.1s and then test the Z-560s. Wouldn't you be just a little biased? I'm sorry but such bias can change your perception a lot. Just take a look at this BB and the couple of times people were rocking up saying that the Crossfires weren't as good as the v2-400s because they owned the v2-400s. And experience doesn't count when it comes to very low-end audio equipment. Do you actaully think several thousands of dollars was poured into R&D for the Promedia range?! "if someone wants to sI'm just surprised at the entire post. It mentions that the Logitechs may sound even better than the Klipsch he's still willing to pay up to 3 times more for the Klipsch. Doesn't that just seem a little weird to you? "Promedias own logitech" OK. Whatever you say. Klipsch definately was an outstanding player in the multimedia speaker market and probably started this whole quality PC speaker revolution but others have caught up and are making a killing. Logitech makes a system which goes just as loud (some report even louder), has better bass and sounds just as good for 1/3 of the price of the Promedias 4.1s The Creative 210D is $100 more expensive than the Promedia 2.1s but according to Mikael at 3DSS, they sound even better than the Crossfires. The Pro 2.1 don't even approach the Crossfires. And we have Polk and Monsoon, the "audiophile" speakers. If you want to debate this, go to 3DSS and talk to Roj. He has heard the Promedias, Polks and Monsoons and his opinions will shock you. Its now Klipsch's turn to play catch-up.

"LogiTech has been making decent comptuer speakers for a while, but not long enough to compare to Klipsch" Computer speakers and large hi-fi speakers are completely different beasts. If you're able to design decent hifi-speakers it doesn't mean you'll be able to design quality computer speakers. Take JBL for instance. Oh yeah, Logitech has been designing and making computer speakers for much longer than Klipsch! "Ok, so they didnt implent the magnetic shielding of the sats right, like you said, that is amazing. " Nah thats a volume problem. When an aperture grill monitor is rattled (like by loud music), the image will "sway". There's nothing you can do about this except turn down the volume. When a speaker isn't magnetically shielded, you'll get VERY noticeable colour shifts on the screen even when the speaker isn't plugged in. All computer speakers (including the Z-560s) ARE shielded. Its an absolute MUST. "performance (sound quality in certain fields) is very very close to the promedia or on par or even slightly better. but it still comes down to the buyer. do you want to spend USD 199 on logitech or USD 299 on promedia???? i will still go for the promedia." OK this makes no sense what-so-ever. If the Logitech is better (or even has the same quality) and costs US$100 less (US$184 to be accurate) how stupid would you be to buy the Promedias?! Oh BTW, this is what Gamepen had to say about the Z-560s.. "Of course they do, but are they better than the Klipsch? After comparing the two, the answer is an absolute and positive "yes"! Considering the Klipsch speakers didnt perform as well when compared to the Logitech ones, the price that the Z-560s come in are just phenomenal"

"These ppl must be pretty ignorant themselves to roast the Klipsch's" Generally I would agree. A lot of these reviewers are ignorant and don't really go in depth but there's one thing you cannot ignore.... they clearly said they performed a head-to-head comparison with the Promedias 4.1 and the old X-trusio DSR-100. "Klipsch has a lot of audio experience and Logitech(??) just now.. " Logitech has been making decent PC speakers for quite a while (like the old DSR-100). I believe they out-sourced the design of the DSR-100 to a specialist company. Also they recently acquired Labtab who has been a specialist PC manufacturer for the last decade. I suppose they used all these resources to design the new Z-560.

Holy crap, listen to this review: ------------------ If you are in the market for a high-end 4.1 speaker system, the Logitech Z-560 is the system to buy. We tested it head-to- head with the Klipsch Pro Media 4.1's, and even Logitech's own Xtrusio DSR-100's, nothing comes close. The Z-560's deliver solid, wall-shaking bass, and crisp, clear midrange. The speakers are attractive, well made, and handle anything you can throw at them. Logitech has created a speaker system that offers ease of installation, excellent features, and a price that just plain kicks ***. The $300 price tag of the 4.1's seems just plain ignorant when compared to the $200 retail price of the Z-560s. Who would have thought that a company known for mice and joysticks would suddenly kick Klipsch right in the nuts, and offer a monster audio system for considerably less cash? I'm sure the guys at Klipsch are asking themselves that same question right about now. This Christmas, treat yourself to something nice. Get some Z-560s and you'll even have enough money left to buy your girlfriend something, too. ------------------ http://www.maximum3d.com/reviews/z560.htm

FYI... Mark at 3DSS has just received a pair of Z-560s and has compared it to the PM4.1 in a couple of posts on the BB. The verdict on its musical abilities is still in deliberation.... but otherwise: "From a gaming and movie perspective they are outstanding with my brief impressions (maybe an hour or so playing around with them) being I have heard no equals at the $200 price point. The upper bass extension of the sats is outstanding and the sub is deep, clean and powerful. My early impressions are that these are a huge threat to the ProMedia 4.1 for gaming and movies" Not bad for a system half the price of the PM4.1! Klipsch its time to respond and get ahead once again. We can't have Creative and Logitech beating you can we?! Think of all the disappointed Promedia fanatics!

quote: So my thinking on this would be that if a 4.1 Klipsch system is "almost" as good as the Videologic 5.1 system, then imagine how good the Klipsch 5.1 is going to be. Not quite. I believe the entire range uses the same satellites with the exception of the centre channel in the 5.1 So with this in mind, and the fact that the 2.1 and 4.1 sound exactly the same, there will be no difference in quality between the 4.1 and the 5.1 The extra $100 will give you slightly louder bass and a centre channel, not better sound quality. quote: a digitheatre system for 614 bux (tax,shipping, timport taxes?) and sucked compared to even my 4.1s Gotta admit this is the first time I heard someone prefering the Klipsch over the Xfires. I remember someone on the 3D SoundSurge board who had the 4.1s then upgraded to the Xfires and loved them. Also Mark, one of the guys who own the site, had this to say during the Promedia 2.1 review, "...ProMedia 2.1 also excels but I found myself more often than not also putting the Crossfire (4.1 system) ahead of the ProMedia 2.1. Its not a night and day difference but a pretty consistent impression"

The wires included with the Crossfires wouldn't have cost Videologic more than $3 for the entire 10m. They *DON'T* package special wiring, just your standard copper cables. There is *NO* special coating, *NO* special termination, *NO* special ANYTHING. Its just normal cheap copper wiring. Where did you get that the Crossfires include thicker or better wires than the Klipsch? Have YOU seen them? I never said that cables are completely useless. What I said is unless you're purchasing quality speaker (say $2K+), dont even bother brand-name or "special" cables. ANY HALF-BRAINED IDIOT who knows anything about hifi will tell you that if you're purchasing a budget system (say under $1.5K), don't even think of spending any more than 50c/foot for speaker cable. What I'm saying is a $595 speaker with $5 cables will sound better than a $500 speaker with $100 cables. Like I said, if you want to spend an extra $100 upgrading your Pros 4.1, you'd might as well go with the Crossfires. It sound better BECAUSE of the better (and more expensive) drivers, not because of some super cables. If you spend $4K on a set of speakers, then go ahead and experiment with cables. *SOME* people have found cables to make a small difference. I didn't say anything was bad about using gold plated connectors. In fact its the only way to go. FYI copper is a better conductor of electricity than gold. They use gold because it doesn't oxidise as easily. Many manufacturers are forced to use thick brand-name wiring and 5-way binding posts because the public demands it, not because of any technical advantage. To quote one of the manager of one of the country's largest speaker manufacturer: "We use binding posts on our larger models because of consumer bias and appearance, not for any other technical reason." This is exactly the same for cables. Many manufacturers have tested different cables and realised that differences are minimal if any at all. Are you willing to discount tests conducted by people such as John Dunlavy? Why are there so many hifi cable companies? Its because audiophile are willing to believe anything. Cables are cheap to make and its not easy to make a lousy cable. The mark-up is huge, meaning its good business. There are some who truly are into R&D into making better cable but most make up stupid claims which have NO scientific backing. If you believe your wiring upgrade have made a huge difference then good for you. You believe what you want to. I'll stick to results from blind testing, eletronic theory as well as my experiences with hifi equipment.

Cat5 cables are only really necessary for low-power cables such as interconnects and when there is large amounts of interference. Any theoretical advantage of Cat5 cables is barely (if at all) noticable. As for speaker cables, most people don't bother with shielding due to the high power going through them. quote: There will be SOME kind of Improvment with Better wires on the Pro Medias. Yeah, NOT! There are so many other flaws with such a cheap speaker no amount of super wires will make it sound better. quote: The "time smearing" thing.. I found out for the cable to actualy make a difference.. a signal will have to have been sent from here to the moon. But the improved wires on the Reference line does improve it some. Um since the cables aren't quite a zillion miles long, how did you come to the conclusion that the Monster cables will improve the sound of the Reference speakers? Honestly I think the Reference line will sound just the same with standard cables. Instead of spending $300 on the Promedias and an extra $100 on cable upgrades why don't u just get the Crossfires?!

quote: Originally posted by DwK: To prove someone wrong (so much being said, this has to prove someone wrong) The Monster Cable used in the new Klipsch Reference line uses one thing (cant remember the name ) but it stops "time smearing" by slowing down the High Frequencies so all the frequencies reach you at the same time. Like building tilted Speaker boxes, but... using... special wire instead..... Having badass Monster Cable on the Pro Medias, with upgraded hook ups, will probobly only offer alittle improvement in sound, due to less deteriation of sound through the wire, the connectors. And the anti "time smearing" stuff. It would also lower the resistance some allowing the spakers to play louder with less power. (Not a BIG difference.. we're talking fairly small s>. This is what I'm talking about. There's a lot of trash which we call Marketing material. This "time smearing" is due to the reactive impedences only due to the low frequencies. Since the impedences are already very small, even the poorest cable would only introduce a maximum phase shift of 5 degrees. 5 degrees is completely INSIGNIFICANT compared the the phase shift introduce by the crossover and the driver configuration. All that "super cable" is pointless and its only purpose is to fool the public into thinking "only the best materials have been used". quote: But when you get done you have probobly spent 100 + bucks.Not worth it In my opinion. Just save up and get some good speakers if its that big of a deal to you. Exactly. If you're gonna to spend an extra $100 "upgrading" the wires on your Promedias, you'd might as well go with something better in the first place. Even if there was any significant difference, do you really think the "upgraded" Promedias could sound as good as the "standard" Crossfires?! You're paying just as much for either setups.

quote: To clarify, the distortion of metals is simply put. If you had two pieces of sheet metal, say 12" x 12" each and hit them together on end they would cut into each other. If at the point of deepest cut you could pause that you'd find no oxygen. As it has been forced out by the marrige of the two pieces under force. So why don't all high-end speaker manufacturers do this instead of soldering? Soldering ensures a long lasting good contacts with no oxidation. quote: Oh, and I placed my digital multimeter on two pieces of wire, each exactly the same length at 10ft. One wire was my upgrade and the other was none other than the factory Klip wire. I must attest first that both wires were tested to see if they work and both do. The ohm reading test showed 0.1 for the Klips and 0.00 for my upgrade. Negligible yes, but different none the less. You do realise most digital multimeters aren't exactly accurate and generally have an error of 1%. Also I haven't seen many multimeters capable of measuring resistances below 1 ohm. Which model? quote: I then hooked the right rear on Klip wire and the left rear on my upgrade wire, the right rear had no mid-range speaker movement and the left did. So I took out the Klip wire and put my upgrade back on and restarted the song. (the song was Slow and Low by the B. Boys) Well..... the movement came back on the right rear mid-range. That can't be blamed on faulty wire from Klip as sound does transfer thru them. My diagnosis, the upgrade did some good, no!!?? How can you argue that except to disbelieve. All this is here to do is prove that your theory on no change what-so-ever is not accurate. I may not have all the knowlege you do but it bugs you that a rookie like me had a disagreement with you and was right. RESISTANCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. Resistance is frequency independent, any eletronics lecturer can tell you this. The resistance of the wire cannot change the character of the sound. Like I said before, when I first bought my cables and hooked it all up, I too thought the mids were smoother and more fluidic. In fact I was utterly convinced I could hear a difference. But now after I have examined the facts and done much more exhaustive testing, it revealed that I was merely imagining the improvement. This is the placebo effect and it is more "powerful" than you think. quote: Next I guess your going to tell me that line level interconnects don't make any difference like S-Video and digital coaxial RCA's. My video switch box allows me to switch between single RCA video wire to S-Video and although the sharpness stays the same the colors are more vivid and rich. Cables make a difference period. Don't even get me started on interconnects. Even more people dispute the differences interconnects can make. I have a $115 0.8m Telfon-coated silver-plated 6N-OFC interconnect which made no noticeable difference in my $6K hifi. Please explain how digital coaxial RCAs can change the sound quality. You're passing logic 1s and 0s. I'd love to hear your "theories" on how changing digital cables can make the mids smoother. RCA composite and S-video is a completely different story. A composite RCA connection matrixes the luminence (brightness) and chroma (colour) signals into one. These have to be seperated at the other end, generally with a loss of quality. S-Video on the other hand carries the luminence and chroma signals seperately. In fact with careful inspection, you'd realise a s-video connection will give you sharper images. This is especially evident on the borders of different colours. With test images, it becomes even more apparent as moire patterns appear with the composite connection.

quote: Originally posted by DwK: Someguy correct me if I am wrong here. If we upgrade our Speaker wires and instead of a 1/8th hook up on the back we have Straight Speaker wire hook ups. Now you got this signal being sent through 16 guage Monster Cable till it reachs the plugs on the Speaker. From the Plubs to the actualy Speaker, you have tiny *** wires. Its like having information sent through a Fiber Optics network, till it suddently reaches a ISDN line. Just seems to me there would have to be some improvement. Because as soon as the signal reaches those small wires, it looses something. Thats the thing, you don't lose sound quality, maybe a small fraction of the power, not that your ears can actually tell the difference. As for the 1/8" jack, if its was done properly in the first place with a good connection, then you won't hear any differences. Some people are having crackling problems and apparently this is due to the poor workmanship in the satellites. In this case, if done right, hooking up the cables directly to the crossover will stop the crackling, but won't improve the sound quality. There is no scientific reason why it would. With your Fibre Optic/ISDN analogy, your ISP has a huge connection to the "net" while you have a 56K connection. Do you get garbled rubbish at your end? The information you get is just as good as the information the ISP gets.

quote: On the topic of Large speaker wire internaly. Klipsch's new Reference series is shipping with Monster Wire inside, they say it improves the preformance. I remember you saying in an earlier post that the larger wire wouldnt matter unless you were using high end speakers, amps or something else.. cant remember. Is Klipsch just toying with our minds, or is this for real? For one, I think it is (for real). When it comes it high-end speakers ($2000+) where most of the other major faults like crossover design, driver and enclosure quality have been optimised, then POSSIBLY its worth considering better wires. It will only be of any importance if the speakers exhibit a poor impedence response (ie very reactive). Apparently eletrostatics (like Martin Logans) do improve with better cables due to the large amounts of power required although I've never personally tested them. I cannot honestly say that there will be any difference between standard 16 gauge cables and 16-gauge Monster cable in the Reference series. It seems to me like more of a marketing tactic. Audiophiles are easily fooled. You should have heard some of the things they did to get better sound quality. quote: I've already said THIS IS A WASTE THE MONEY. However this is a product defect and Klipsch SHOULDN'T have ever let this happen. Klipsch should fix it for free. No. I actually means its NOT a waste of money. If you have a loose connection and the speakers or wires get moved around, you'll hear crackling noises as electrical contact is made and lost. You can fix it youself (and lose the warranty) or Klipsch can do it for you. Its a product defect, either due to low quality parts or poor production techniques. It'll remove the crackling (unless you have the pre-amp problem as well) but it won't make the midrange fuller, the high-end smoother or anything like that. quote: their engineers with 50+ years experience You do realise engineers don't get much of a say into these matter. Its more likely Klipsch Marketing had to do with the addition of Monster Cable. quote: these very high end, if not the top end Go listen to the Videologic Sirocco, Crossfires, Pros, Monsoon MM-2000, Diamond HPM-4100 and then tell me the Klipsch Promedia is "top-end". quote: then Lucasfilm specs for THX systems Do you actually have any idea what is required for THX multimedia certification?! No one does because they refuse to release the specifications required for THX certification. For all we know LucasFilms is throwing certifications to anyone just to make a buck. At the start of the THX program, products with THX certification were treated with the upmost respect. Now that THX is creating rubbish like THX Select and THX multimedia, no one is taking them seriously anymore. They've sacrificed their reputation to make more money. quote: Standard speaker wire is not 99% true copper too, it's mixed with tin where as quality OFC has no tin content and therefore better conductivity. To make a connect oxygen and tarnish free requires more than solder, the connect must distort the two metals together (pin and speaker cable) This the only <u>true</u> oxygen free connect and pressure crimping 24K pins to copper wire does just that. And you say I'm talking out of my butt! I have never heard such a poorly made up "theory". The "connect must distort the two cables together". I have never heard such rubbish in my life. Crimping cables to the pins will not make it airproof, thus it'll still oxidise. Soldering the cables directly to the connector ensures a good connection and because the copper is not exposed to oxygen, it won't oxidise. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TRUE OXYGEN FREE CONNECT. How much do you know about chemistry? Its almost completely impossible to have a completely pure element, especially a reactive one like copper. quote: That and an amplifier only pushes the power that the volume control knob tells it to do, so..... better wires (more conductivity) would be less work for an amplifier as the amplifier would try just as hard to push 300 watts thru bad wire as good wire. Resistance makes heat. As you know, you can neither create nor destroy energy, just change it so, better wire=better sound=better conductivity and a cooler amp. You are right that the sub should have heatsinks and fans.... totally right on there, but better wire and connects can not hurt anything and will give some improvement, maybe small as I said but it WILL be better. No need to respond to this as we don't agree, never will and thats fine with me. I have my now moving mids as proof that it did something. I'm guessing that you lack any knowledge of eletronics or physics because just about everything you just said is wrong. Pure resistance (not impedence) has nothing to do with sound quality. NONE. It'll reduce power to the satellites, but thats it. And since the standard wires have a resistance which is a minute fraction of the satellites, the resistance of the wires can be disregarded. PLUS YOU'RE NOT PUSHING 300 WATTS THROUGH THE WIRES! You won't even hit the specified 60 watts, let alone 300 watts. quote: Perhaps you saw no difference cause you did a crappy job at the upgrade?? So you're saying all blind test with done to stringent procedures are also "crap". quote: this ixtreme is "suffering" from the placebo effect, and someguy15 is blowing off about the amount of information he knows. OK I admit it looks like I am "blowing off about the amount of information I know", but you have to do a little research into these topic to find out the truth. In this "audiophile-world" there is so much crap floating around that many people are simply willing to accept as fact. But I agree with Btrigg, iXtreme is suffering from the placebo effect and is now going through the denial phase. I did exactly the same thing. quote: I'd like to say that you are talking about the promedia's here. A speaker system costing $300. If you really want good audio, buy some more expensive ones, don't waste time and money trying to get the most out of pc speakers. Couldn't agree more.

Like I said before, you guys should be asking for stuff like better quality control (loose connections and crackling preamps) and better heat dissipation from the amps. A "cable upgrade" option is stupid, especially considering that YOU'RE USING CHEAP COMPUTER SPEAKERS!

The only reason to change the connector is because people are getting broken connections when the sats or wires are moved, thus causing the crackling noise. I've already said THIS IS A WORTH THE MONEY. However this is a product defect and Klipsch SHOULDN'T have ever let this happen. Klipsch should fix it for free. And about your cables rant, first of all, there is no such thing is pure OFC. The resistance between 99.999999% and 99% copper is negligible. Do some research before you post your "theories" quote: These are the facts, the better the signal path, the better the signal at the end product. Less work for the amp to push thru... less resistance from poor wires This is utter bullshit. Do you have any idea the resistance of even a thin piece of copper wire COMPARED to the resistance of your speaker. It is INSIGNIFICANT. Your amp won't be able to tell the difference. Also FYI, if the cables had a significant resistance, the amp would actually be more happy as it has to deliver less current, meaning less heat. The Promedia amps aren't sending 60W to the satellites, so you don't need 16 gauge wires. quote: 24K pins to the sub end keeps bare wire from eventaully tarnishing so hence a better connect in the long run Yes and unless you carefully solder the cables to the plugs (not those screw tightening types), it'll tarnish anyway! quote: You want stories... here's one..... the gravel road will get you there sure but it's dirty and bumpy. The paved road is clean and smooth. WRONG! This is physics we're talking about and your analogy couldn't be more wrong. No offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if you lack knowledge of even simple electronics to even realise what cable impedence is and what its effects are, let alone transmission line theory to fully understand how cables work. quote: I changed my wires and connects today and there IS a difference, the mids actually move now... with factory wires they never moved. There's your proof that it does make a diff. I was also fooled by all this "audiophile" trash and I change the cables to my speakers too. Initially I thought the midrange was fuller and more involving. But now that I'm more familiar with hifi and understand transmission line theory better, I realised that it isn't really possible. I tried a more exhaustive objective test and guess what, no differences. Just I said in the other post, most of the time, its due to the placebo effect. You hear what you want to hear, irrespective. I'm not the only one how believes speaker cable companies are milking the uneducated public for every penny. There is no scientific reason why expensive thick cables would sound noticeably better, nor have there been any objective tests to show this. Read the post titled "Replacing ALL the wires-How much improvment?" , Dunlavy's tests is one of many which proves the same thing. People are being fooled by all this audiophile-cable hype. I'm man enough to admit I wasted $100 on new cables, ARE YOU? I'm just trying to stop u guys from making what could be a costly mistake.

quote: Originally posted by Windstorm: I did this to my 4.00's, soldered 16 gauge right to the speakers. Pretty noticeable difference, although it could be because my rear cables are about 40 feet. It was pretty easy to do on the 4.00's since they only have a cap btw the midbass and tweeters, the 4.1's have a croosover IC in each sat so it may be harder... but it did improve quality a bit. quote: i can definitely hear the difference after the speaker wire upgrade. You guys still don't understand. Replacing the wires and soldering it directly to the crossover will not improve the sound of your speakers, it'll just remove the crackling caused by the lousy connection, NOTHING ELSE. Unless the wires are actually defective, replacing them, even with thick wires won't change the sound. You're using cheap computer speakers with even cheaper amplifiers... how the hell do you expect an improvement? You're fooling yourself if you think there is a definate improvement. EVERY BLIND TEST HAS PROVED THAT UNLESS YOU'RE USING EXPENSIVE SPEAKERS (OR ELECTROSTATICS) AND EXPENSIVE AMPS, CHANGING WIRES WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. I believe this demonstration by Dr Dunlavy says it all -------------------- Mr. Dunlavy has often gathered audio critics in his Colorado Springs lab for a demonstration. "What we do is kind of dirty and stinky," he said. "We say we are starting with a 12 WAG zip cord, and we position a technician behind each speaker to change the cables out." The technicians hold up fancy-looking cables before they disappear behind the speakers. The critics debate the sound characteristics of each wire. "They describe huge changes and they say, 'Oh my God, John, tell me you can hear that difference,'" Mr. Dunlavy said. The trick is the technicians never actually change the cables, he said, adding, "It's the placebo effect." -------------------- Why u guys keep wasting your money is beyond me.