psg
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----------------On 10/12/2004 4:50:55 PM D-MAN wrote:There is no technical difference between bi-wiring or running 2 parallel sets of the same wire cables.
No exactly true. There can be an order of magnitude less current on the wire going to the highs as opposed to half the current when running parallel sets of wires.
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Most of the idea behind bi-wiring is that most of the current goes to the woofer, and so using a separate cable to the highs ensures quite a lot less current is going through that wire affecting the higher frequencies.
Does it work? I don't know... I've never heard a difference.
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I found them here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=5724476151&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
They are the original crossovers from his La Scala's; he has upgraded to ALKs. I wouldn't want to replace my old ones with his old ones unless Bob tested them first.
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Interesting idea D-man, thanks.
Bob, I tried to email you but the messages bounced back. I'll try using this site...
Peter
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Thanks Dean for an excellent summary. I see it would be difficult to get a concensus on which is the best sounding option.
Daddy Dee wrote:Yep, I think you are thinking right on checking out the crossovers. It is fairly likely that they have drifted off spec over the years. You might find it interesting to take a look at the woofers, but I'd sure think that they'd be fine.Thanks. I would think you'd be fine otherwise I think I'd hear it. I do augment the bass with a Hsu STF-3 sub, now it doesn't affect all music material.
Dean has laid out some good crossover options from Klipsch forum folk. They are all good folk and offer a unique alternative on crossover solutions.Probably the least expensive solution would be to have Bob Crites test and rebuild (as necessary using your existing crossovers) to replace out of spec caps.That's interesting. I didn't know about Bob. I haven't researched this very thoroughly yet. But with that option, I'd be without my speakers for a long time. Ouch. On the other hand, I can't say I'm overflowing with cash and the idea of replacing only what's broken is appealing.
I emailed Al K yesterday and he said a matched pair of crossovers was $500 (if I recall correctly) and a kit was $330 (plus shipping in both cases). I'm think $500 might be above my budget for this since the speakers do sound fine to me. But what do I know...
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Hi,
I have a pair of 1973 La Scala which I got second-hand (from a cousin) in 1981. They sound great to me, but I figure after 31 years they might benefit from some maintenance. What is suggested?
Can the crossover be visually inspected for damage?
Should I dare to open up the bottom to inspect the woofers?
Are Al Klappenberger's or DeanG's crossovers considered the best upgrade? (I don't even know what type of crossover I have in there but presumably Klipsch has changed the crossover since then.) As I understand, DeanG builds the same crossover circuit found in current Klipsch but with better quality component, and ALK crossovers are a different design altogether that result in an easier load for amplifiers (and a better sound). Is that correct? Which is better?
Anything I should consider doing? These speakers are for keeps. I don't plan on ever selling them.
Thanks,
Peter
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Billiardicus,
You implied you were looking for value. In that case, I'd consider Hsu or SVS for a sub instead of Klipsch.
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Orange Peel,
Why in the world wouldn't a Pioneer Elite VSX-53TX be enough?
A setup with 200W will be you 3 dB more; that's it!
I listen to loud music with 1 W and to _very_ loud music with 10 W.
Aren't your RF-7 efficient enough for you? 102dB is not very far from Heritage efficiency!
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One thing I found is that in general I only need a small amount of output for my situation and my room is 24 x 32 with vaulted ceilings. I'm using very little of the sub power for a big room and still getting a dramatic impact.I'm happy with the addition of subs for the LaScalas.
Same here. I borrowed both a small Paradigm PDR-10 and a Magnat (12 inch). Both could match the La Scala in volume by setting them at their mid point. Both helped the bass a bit. Then I purchased a Hsu STF-3. It matches the La Scala volume at a bit under 1/6 on its volume dial and adds _so much more_ to the bass. A bass drum finally sounds real and pounds you in the chest.
I really recommend a sub with La Scala's.
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On most subs, you can plug in only one input on a marked input instead of plugging both with the same mono signal. Plugging in both only gives you 3 dB of gain, but that doesn't change the max sound pressure that your sub can produce. It only means that you'll be setting your volume control a little lower on the sub.
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Your US$1500 receiver won't let you send the low frequency content to both the mains and sub? That's surprising.
Then set your mains to "small" and send it only to the sub.
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Matching a Heresy to a pair LaScala's might be a good timbre match, but the 8 dB difference in efficiency is a bit of a killer. Having said that, theater reference is -17dB on my receiver with LaScala's as mains, and I rarely watch a movie above -25dB or so. So I could live with 8 dB.
It's interesting that old LaScala docs state 104 db at 1W and 4 feet (and I remember seeing 106 dB stated for 1 meter).
I object to the "voice" comparison to describe timbre. It's not a speaker's job to change the voice so, to me, timbre implies colouration. The current docs for LaScala state 53Hz-17kHz ±3dB. That's 6dB of variation across the board, equivalent to 4 times the power. The old docs said 45Hz-17kHz ±5dB, or a ten-fold variation in power. There's lot of room for coloration in either of those specs.
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"To make a long story short, there is absolutely no way for me to get a preamp signal to the sub for my music listening"??? Split the preamp output with a pair of cheap rca y's and send both left and right to the subwoofer.
Didn't he just say "absolutely no way for me to get a preamp signal to the sub"? That surely means there are no pre-outs.
:-)
Money for a RSW-15 but no pre-outs on his system. That is somewhat surprising...
I would think SVS are as good for music as they are for movies. For myself, I absolutely love my Hsu STF-3 on music.
Peter
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On 8/26/2004 2:34:27 PM firefighter wrote:PSG,Thanks for the reply to all the questions, There is one other sub that I am looking at, the SVS PB1-ISD, it is very similar to the HSU-STF3. Sooner or later I'm going to have to make a descision and quit analyzing it.
Hi Firefighter,
I don't know whether you have purchased anything yet, but I was thinking... Earlier you said your budget was $500. For US$399 + $25 shipping, you can get the smaller Hsu STF-2. It has the same low end as the larger STF-3 but has a lower max output (108 dB vs 114 dB). Since I'm only setting my volume level at less than 1/6, I'm sure that the STF-2 would still have ample volume to keep up with the LaScala's. Something to consider anyway.
Peter
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HSU recommended the VTF-3 Mk2 $699SVS recommended either the 20-39 PC Plus $825 or the PB2-ISD @ $899
I've had a HSU STF-3 for about two weeks and I am thrilled with it. Complements the LaScala's very well.
Peter
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psg,I was reading on another forum and comments were made that the vtf-3 had a huge amount of port noise, did you find any with the stf-3, did you resolve the issue with the scratches, does it have any chest slamming qualities, and last but not least does the sub seem fast enough for the LaScalas? Sorry for all the questions but I'm looking hard at the same sub.Jack.
Hi Jack and others.
Sorry for not following-up on the thread. My home computer died and then I had to leave on a work-related trip.
I did not notice any port noise at all, but I'm only running it at 1/6 on the volume level dial.
The distributor emailed back about the scratches, apologizing and saying there were no B-stock units, and asked me to take a few digital pictures and send them along.
A friend of mine is a drummer and he said he very rarely experiences the "live chest slam" on the kick drum with sound systems, but he does with mine and it sounded very realistic. :-)
It sounds great to my ears with the LaScalas.
Peter
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I received the Hsu STF-3 today. I unpacked it and was a bit disappointed to find a deep half-inch to an inch scratch on the front-right edge as well as a scuff mark in the front panel. Did I get a B-stock with retail price?
I set the volume to mid-level and set my receiver to something low, like -30dB or so, then put on Darla hitting the aquarium with her finger on Finding Nemo. My wife swears that the patio furniture on the outdoor concrete patio was shaking. I was in trouble. There was no way that sub was staying now. The whole house shakes!
I tuned the volume level with a calibration DVD and SPL meter and it turns out I need to turn down to volume to a bit below 1/6. So maybe the sub is too powerful for my room.
Then, I tried music. I had tried a few subs last week for a few days, including a small Paradigm PDR-10. There's no comparison at all. I could hear things even with the receiver volume at -40dB that I have never heard before. The first track of Sting's "Brand new Day" has bass I never knew even existed. The "Heel freezes over" DVD never sounded so good! The sub is staying! Fantastic!
I'm only concerned about those scratches...
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boomer9911 wrote:Paradigm with La Scala's...did I miss something here..enlighten me....
I borrowed a small 10" Paradigm PDR-10 to try out when I started thinking about adding a sub. Volume calibration with an SPL meter and a calibration DVD lead to setting the volume knob at mid-level on the PDR-10. I therefore assumed that it shouln't clip on LFE movie content, ever. But I guess a full-voltage blast at very low frequency might be too much; I don't know. I'll admit I never pushed it to the limit, as I never listen to a movie at 0dB setting on my receiver (-13dB is theater reference on my setup and I typically watch movies around -20dB).
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Jack,
It should be here tomorrow or so. It was shipped yesterday.
Hsu and SVS subwoofers are highly regarded in other forums such as http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/8666.html and that is what I'm basing my choice on. SVS are not available in Canada, so I'd have to hassle with customs and such. Hsu sells direct on the internet (http://www.hsuresearch.com/) but they have a Canadian distributor who are shipping one to me for C$799.50 + C$20 freight + GST = C$876.87. In the US, you can get one for $599 + $50 freight = $649 (or C$848).
You can find a revire here: http://www.onhometheater.com/product/20040401.htm
I haven't heard the CHT-15 and was more weary of buying it without hearing than the Hsu. The Future Shop store had the XHT-12 on the floor, but not the CHT-15. I wasn't very impressed with the CHT-12 (in the poor environment that it was in); it sounded boomy and monotonic to me on music (Holly Cole).
I'll come back to this thread with a mini-review after I have played with it a bit. Why is the Boston not heard when you raise the volume? Is it topping out? Is this on movies or music? What frequency are you crossing over at for music? I would think that setting a sub at mid-way on its volume dial would mean that it would never top off on LFE material played at reference levels on the receiver. Am I wrong in assuming this? I found that matching the volume on even a small Paradigm PDR-10 to the LaScalas left the sub at about mid-way on its volume dial.
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Thanks for the vote of re-inforcement. I'll likely be ordering the Hsu this evening via email.
Peter
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Translation for others out there: The paradigm PW2200 goes deeper than the RSW12 and costs less. There are dealers in Montreal who can give me a good price on it too.
Of course, his version used slang. :-)
Thanks Ear, but I figure the best price I could get on the PW2200 is about C$1000 with taxes. I heard it at the local Stereo Plus outlet (who ask C$1000 plus taxes) and it was the worst audition ever. It was booming on regular dialog! Granted, I should go back with a better salesperson...
Still, that C$125 more than the Hsu. I think I can get a better bang for the buck with a Hsu STF-3. Plus, I find it annoying to have to "deal" to get a fair price or else pay 20% extra. But that's just me. So if Paradigm ask me why I don't buy Canadian, I'd answer that they should sell for the lowest price instead of trying to dupe unsuspecting clients. :-)
How would you compare the PW-2200 to the Hsu STF-3?
Peter
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Thanks for the RW-12 offer. That is indeed a good deal and I wouldn't mind a blemish on the side. But I'm really considering a Hsu STF-3 at this point, for C$875 with taxes and shipping included.
I must admit that the specs are very similar! And I haven't heard either of them either; I'm just guessing based on reviews.
Anyone out there can comment of the RW-12 versus the Hsu STF-3?
Thanks!
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I listenned to a RW-10 today at a local store. It was very convincing and rock-solid on LFE ("Ice Age" beginning) but I'm unsure about music content. I should have brought a known CD but I was just driving by and dropped in. The bass was a little monotone but that could have been the music itself.
For the price difference with the RW-12, I'd probably go with the RW-12 if it's rated as well on music as the RW-10. That's if I go with Klipsch instead of the other choices. I could get the RW-12 in canada for C$899 + taxes (total of US$775), or mail-order from Brand Namez for US$429 with as-yet unknown shipping and duties which almost certainly would be much less than the Canadian price.
The Velodyne CHT-15 still seems like the killer deal for C$775 shipped to my door...
Peter
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Thanks for your post,
I wouldn't feel right ordering from Future Shop knowing I'd be sending it back regardless. Regarding your question, I'd put the sub at the position of your chair (moving the chair). I guess it should face the spot where you'd end up putting the sub.
There's another mail-order possibility, although I don't know how expensive it would be: Adire Audio Rava. Does anyone have an opinion on it?
Thanks
Talk Klipsch on the Klipsch forum.
in Home Theater
Posted
Too much SVS talk for you?
I suppose it's bad marketing to have other manufacturer's gear discussed on your web site. Potential buyers might come here to see what the fuss is about concerning Klipsch and end up reading about SVS. On the other hand, it's nice to see an honest and open forum. (Disclaimer: I don't own a SVS sub)
This really only occurs on the sub section. Perhaps Klipsch could see that as a sign that they need to be a bit more competitive in that specific market.
But I will respect your wishes in the future.