Bluesteel

Thanks for the advice. Anyone else wanna chime in on this?

Ok ... I was trying not to get into the gorry details, because I know many people will have trouble thinking outside of the speaker cabinet. But I found a set of Chorus II's with a blown Woofer for $200. I needed a Center Channel to match my existing Chorus II's and Forte II's, so I replaced the Woofer, and tried hooking them up on either side of the TV with the Center Channel output from a Denon AVR-3300 Receiver. This resulted in an astonishing 5-Channel sound-stage with all six speakers up front, but no matter what settings I try (even using just one Chorus II), there is little to no bass output from the Center Channel(s). Since I have an old Carver TFM 35x amp (the kind with the Mad-Scientist meters, Hee-Hee Hee-Hee Hee-Hee), and no subwoofer; I thought I'd try sending the Subwoofer signal from the Receiver to the Amp, and then on to the Woofers on the center Chorus II's. Since the Woofers will only be getting the Sub-Woofer signal, I wouldn't need any extra Crossovers. But the Woofer leads coming from the Crossovers on the center Chorus II's will be disconnected, because I'll still use the Tweets and Squaks for the Center Channel output. So ... Its just like Bi-Amping, but I wanted to know if I need to do something with the unused Woofer leads coming from the existing Crossovers. I found some non-inductive impedence loads that are used to test amplifiers, but I didn't know if that was overkill. I'm thinking a simple 8 Ohm Resistor would get too hot, even with the relatively small amount of watts from the Receiver's Center Channel output. Thanks for the info in advance ... This message has been edited by Bluesteel on 09-18-2001 at 04:18 PM

C'mon, somebody knows sumpt'n!!!

White-Noise = All audible frequencies being reproduced at the same level (radio static). This sounds heavily wieghted toward the higher frequencies (I guess because there are so many more of them). Pink-Noise = White-Noise wieghted with more boost to the lower frequencies. Brown-Noise = ??? but I'm pretty sure it exists (may be the result of lactose intolerance by the sound engineer) 8) Many Receivers produce a Pink-Noise to adjust the balance between all the channels. But for precision, you'll need a decible (dB) meter to get a number on the loudness from each channel and balance them accordingly. There are cheap sound level meters from Radio Shack (selling on eBay for 1/2 price), but they only measure a limited range of audible sound (30-10,000 Hz as opposed to the 20-20,000 Hz range of human hearing). Want more range? Then you'll pay. Another use for Pink-Noise is to balance the level of most of the audible frequencies with an equalizer and a spectrum analyzer, or with a sound level meter and a test-tone CD, as the wise Colon suggests. The spectrum analyzer uses a microphone to listen to your system and show you a graphical display of the Pink-Noise it hears, (all across the sound "spectrum"). In theory, to reproduce the same sound your favorite artists intend you to hear, all the frequencies should be at the same level across the spectrum, a.k.a. a flat-sound. If its not flat, and NO real-life sound system reproduces a flat Pink-Noise spectrum, then you can adjust some of the frequencies up or down as needed with the graphic equalizer. This I have done. And for what its worth, flat or close to flat SUX!!! I like bass, lot of bass, even largemouth bass (ooops, sorry, wrong bass), but it is after all, a salt-to-taste thing. Its just that with a spectrum analizer and a pink noise generator, its easy to see where you're at, then go from there. You can use your tone controls on your Receiver if you have them. But the bass control is centered at 100 Hz or so and the treble is centered at 10,000 Hz or so. And who knows what the bandwidth is? So its a much coarser adjustment than you can get with a graphic or even a parametric equalizer. "Don't Bi-Wire, buy speakers!!!" This message has been edited by Bluesteel on 09-03-2001 at 10:21 PM

Not being a fan of the newer Klipsch stuff (I've got Chorus' and Forte's), or knowing much information about your setup, here's some of what I've experienced with harshness: If you're too close to a horn speaker, its going to sound harsh, sometimes terribly harsh. How close is too close? It depends on a lot of factors; I don't like being closer than 12 feet, but 15-20 feet is ideal. Additionally, since horns are so directional, just a few inches side to side can make all the difference, especially if you're too close. That's one reason the little satelite cone type speakers are so popular, they radiate sound (rather than propel it like horns) so even though they lack clearity, its easier to get a smooth sound. Many people just don't have the room to make horn-loaded speakers sound good. Generally Denon's Receivers are not too bright, but some others are just not a good match for horns, though its a salt-to-taste thing. Many DVD Players have good Digital to Analog Converters (DAC's) and sound better than cheap CD Players. But check the specifications on your stuff. I've been using a Sony 400 disk CD Changer, and its 1-Bit DAC finally got the best of me. So I added a good after-market 24-Bit DAC (MSB Link DAC) and the vocals and sharp electric guitar notes that were notorious for harshness, are actually enjoyable now. As far as speaker cable and interconnects are concerned, unplug all your stuff and take the cover off of your components, then look inside your speakers sometime. See all those TINY little wires? Unless you're running 50 feet from one component to the next, most of that high dollar stuff is PURE nonsense. "Don't Bi-Wire, buy speakers!!!" This message has been edited by Bluesteel on 09-02-2001 at 07:49 PM

If you disconnect the woofer leads coming out of the cross-over, and power the woofer with a seperate amp, do you need to hook up a dummy load to the leads from the Klipsch cross-over? Or can you just leave them disconnected?

If you disconnect the woofer leads coming out of the cross-over, and power the woofer with a seperate amp, do you need to hook up a dummy load to the leads from the Klipsch cross-over? Or can you just leave them disconnected?

ditto ... ditto ... ditto

Hello juladler, You might want to read a thread under the "General Questions" section, called: "Shocked by the skinny little wires!"

Thanks Boa, Perfect!

I agree, and that was my intention, to hear exactly what the artist intended. But ... that's not possible without being in the studio when they created it. An alternative is to have a standard: Little to no coloration or a relatively "flat" tone, lets say +/- 3dB over the whole response range. The deal is, every component: from the power supply; to the playback source; the amplification; the speakers; and especially the room will color the music. Its a sure bet that without some type of compensation, any system with the tone controls set to the neutral "0" position is not flat. Mona may not have a full moustache, but at the very least, shes going to have a 5 o'clock shadow. Without measuring the frequency response at several levels with a sound meter and a tone generator, or a spectrum analyzer, it would take a very special ear to tell if a sound system isn't coloring what the artist intended. Whatever you use to get a get an objective look, once you see your system in the mirror of a graph, think of an equalizer as an electric razor.

Read the thread: "Shocked by the skinny little wires!"

If Klipsch still makes the Heresy, then they could and should still make the Forte, but they folded to the pressure, and rationalized them out of production back in 1996. Just a little more producible, a little cheaper, and a little less quality ... shame, shame. Boy can I wait for the new-stuff. Never the less, I guess if the Forte II's were proportionately enlarged, that speaker would have an 18 inch drone. Is that what you meant? Hmmm ... wait ... please don't get me started down that road ... I have a cabinet design with a CNC Machined smoothly folded 20 foot horn ... but I digress. Anyway, you might be thinking of the Chorus II, which is the largest speaker in the Quartet-Forte-Chorus line. Its almost a proportional enlargement of the Forte II, with a 15 inch Woofer, but as Doug pointed out, the Drone on the Chorus II is still only a 15 inch. They're REALLY intimidating to women, hehe ... that is with a few notable exceptions ... one of which is wild-woman who goes by Bev, and I believe she has four of 'em! Thanks to that Wifey-Factor, Forte I's & II's are on ebay at almost any given time ($400-$800). Chorus I's & II's show up once or twice a month ($600-$1,100). Quartet's are harder to find (probably because theyre smaller), yet some of the used-gear Internet dealers have 'em ($400?).

Thanks, udaman!

Thanks, If its only a loss of power from the mid-hi amp, a resistor makes the most sense. That way the original x-over stays intact. Update: Additional information on this topic is in the "General Questions" section under the topic: "2 components.....1 pair of speakers???"

What if you did use a crossover before the amps? What I was thinking of was disconnecting the woofer from the crossover, and replacing it with a 8-Ohm "Dummy" load like they use for bench testing amps (they also make 4-Ohm dummy-loads if required). Then using the existing crossover to connect the output from the Receiver (set to either "Large" or "Small" output, whichever is better). While the LFE/Subwoofer signal from the Receiver goes to another amp and then to the woofer. The reason for this would be having an extra Chorus/Forte/Quartet for the center channel, and wanting to use the center speaker's woofer and cabinet as a convienent sub-woofer. Aside from not using these speakers in the way they were designed, is this possible?

Thanks for quantitative answer Ray. But the other question remains: What if you disconnected the woofer from the crossover? Could you still bi-amp full-range three-way speakers by sending "Small-Speaker" output from one amp to the main 5-way connection (using the existing crossover), and then use another amp to send LFE-Subwoofer output directly connected to the woofer? Would you have to add a "dummy" load to the open woofer circuit?

I wonder ... what would happen if two amps were connected to the same binding post? For instance, what would happen if you sent "LFE/Subwoofer" output from one amp, to the same binding-post on a set of speakers being driven by another amp sending them "Small-Speaker" output? Conversely, what if you disconnected the woofer from the crossover? Could you still bi-amp full-range three-way speakers by sending "Small-Speaker" output from one amp to the main 5-way connection (using the existing crossover), and then use another amp to send LFE-Subwoofer output directly connected to the woofer? If either of those scenario's is possible, then could someone use a tube-amp to power the horns and a ss-amp to drive the cone woofer?

Klewless, Are you saying not to bi-amp?

Kewl dude!

The Heresy is my first love. For mid-fi speakers, the only flaw in them was having the horns too close to the floor, and it seemed obvious to add a passive radiator for better bass. Years ago I had the same idea of getting an abused pair on the cheap and building some custom cabinets with a ridiculously long folded horn for deep bass. But the Heresy Woofer having such a short throw, is not designed for a vented cabinet (or one with a passive radiator for that matter). Which is only the first of many modification complications, hehe. Then Klipsch came out with the Forte and later the Forte II. For the money, time, and effort, you should check those out on ebay if you haven't heard them. For whatever reason, they sell for about the same as a used pair of Heresys.

Hey again, Little wires on the voice-coil make perfect sense, keeping inertia low. And I can see that using small zip cord for speaker wire is not wise, but there is a radical diminishing return curve once you get past 14 or 16 gauge speaker wire, unless you're going very far. It's just that it's not possible to be objective once you've laid down a big wad of cash for the equivalent of running a 20" high-pressure gas pipeline to supply the 1/2" lines servicing your house. Good grief, I have a 25 hp CNC Lathe out in the shop that will pull a full 100 amps, with a supply line that's 60 feet from the breaker-box, and it's not using some of the wire I've seen advertised as speaker cable!

Not shocked electronically, but shocked by the size. I looked inside my 1000W peak Chorus II's and found disappointingly tiny little wires. And to think, I kind of felt I was skimping by running 12 gauge speaker wire. I guess its supposed to simulate a direct connection to the amp, but what an eye-opener! And what a "Monster" rip-off! At least it was a generic monster, but I still feel like an idiot. I could make a fortune betting against people's "golden-ears" on what they can and can't hear with some double-blind tests. You know the kind, where neither the listener nor the test operator knows what they're really listening to, and an observer scores the results. If they could tell the difference significantly above random guessing, I'll pay them. If not, they pay me. How does five to one odds sound? Before you take me up on that, you'd better have a gander at those tiny little wires! Believe what you want, listen to the "Paul-Hardly" style marketing, read all those glowing buzz-word reviews about "imaging, sound-stage, etc." in the same magazines that sell 4-color advertisement space, and backup your objective research with some real-life testimonials at we'reallreallynotsufferingfrombuyer'sremorse.com. Then go get yourself some $300+ solid silver interconnects and $400+ hand-weaved speaker cables the size of a garden hose. Of course that stuff sounds better. And the more you keep telling yourself that, the more you'll believe it too!

I wanted a pure "flat" sound. So I used a spectrum analyzer to see how "flat" was flat and I found that even with the receivers tone controls set to 0, for whatever reason, the sound was very colored. Without graphing your response with a test CD and a sound meter, or using a spectrum analyzer, how do you know if what you think is flat actually is flat? Most manufacturers dont tell you what the tone controls are actually doing (as in what frequency theyre centered on, and width and shape of the adjustment). But even if you knew, would you be able to use those two tone controls to discolor the sound to flat? An equalizer allowed me to adjust the frequencies to a pretty flat response. But you know what? It really SUX!!! Almost no bass whatsoever. So, leaving most of the tones set for a flat response (settings that I would have never have guessed), I salted the sound to my liking, which is what its all about any way. I just learned that leaving the Bass and Treble knobs at 0 is not necessarily flat.

Roger that RWMIN! TTK, I've got a Denon AVR 3300. I thought about the 3801 but I couldn't tell if it has a tape monitor switch to remotely activate an equalizer. All the electronics are sealed in an entertainment center that hides any noise, which I've yet to hear anyway. A friend's 3300 use to make noise until he got some Forte II's. Maybe it liked that load better than his B&W's. I guess you've read all those posts on AudioReview.com so it's kind of a shot in the dark. My Receiver is driving 3 Chorus II's (main and center) and 2 Forte II's sitting next to the mains. With all the speakers set to "Large" on the Receiver, and five 15" passive radiators thumping one wall, there's not much need for a sub. I may try some RS-3's for movie surrounds later, and its hard to tell in the showroom, but they have not impressed me. However, for music, I find it very distracting to hear things like percussion instruments coming anywhere but from the front. Using the Receiver's A/B surround switch, I can change from 2-channel, to 3-channel, to a full sounding 5-channel. Of course its a matter of taste, but for my money, a lot of that surround stuff is a gimmick.