trioid

Hi jjptkd Thanks much for your response, and for not dinging me for mentioning a non-Klipsch sub. After I posted I had second thoughts in that regard. Anyway, maybe Klipsch will get into that range. In the meantime, my findings are like yours and so far about 50+ Hz low pass with a roll off of 18 db/oct is quite nice. CW3s can thump the bass pretty good, and I run them full range as you do your RF-7s, but there is plenty of tasty musical material that the sub adds. I do have a Paradigm crossover, but I really do not want to run the CWs through that, and I would rather not run just the sub through it either. Any other suggestions are most welcomed! Cheers! Jim

Many moons have passed by since I last posted.... FYI; recently purchased a SB16 from SVS and am working to match it up with a pair of Cornwall IIIs. Currently looking for the best low pass filter freq. and I am guessing somewhere between 40 and 50 Hz since the CW3s are not in a corner. Suggestions are welcomed! As usual, room position is the biggest problem, mostly for the sub, and I have very few options. I do like this sealed sub already - it sounds much better than other subs I have tried. Cheers, Jim

Hi - I have CW IIIs and for several years have run them with Bottlehead Paramount SET monoblock amps running 300Bs at ~8 W. This is in a pretty large room. Plenty of power. Cheers, Jim

Hi Chris: Interesting, and thank you for the inputs and handy links! Plenty to think over here, since with the Cornwall III, I can easily 'biamp' properly given a good Xover. The multiple outs allow the sub it's own range as well. Later, Jim

Wm - Thank you! That is exactly what I was wondering about. I think I need to reconsider all of this. In particular, looking for a really good active crossover. Anyone have a suggestion? Behringer has one, but one would have to modify (upgrade components) in that circuit as well, in my opinion. Cheers, Jim

Hi All Here is the situation, and then the question. Sorry for the details, but if someone out there is willing to help guide my thoughts, you will need to know the setup. This music system here is all ‘tube powered’ except for the CD player. The speakers are Cornwall IIIs and they are assisted by a pair of SVS subwoofers. I currently use a DEQ2496 only for ‘tuning’ the subwoofers -- the higher frequencies go direct from the preamp to the main amps. The preamp has a second output pair that goes to the DEQ. The DEQ output right now goes to a Paradigm X-30 active X-over that is used only as a low pass filter. That works just fine, as my room is somewhat flat from 100 to 20K Hz (I have measured it). Below that, the DEQ boosts from 0 to a max of +8 dB over the range of 100 to 20 Hz. Nonetheless being an audio nut case, I want to try out using the DEQ full range (after modifications*). The DEQ would go between the preamp and main amps. However, I don’t want to use the high pass on the Paradigm X-30 to go into the main amps – i just don’t like it. What I would like to try is running the pre amp to the DEQ then the output of the DEQ split to go direct to the main amp and through the active X over for the subs. The plan at this time is to more or less leave the equalizer settings I have below 100 Hz, and use the DEQ full range (let it auto equalize above 100 Hz only for room correction). With this setup, the Cornwalls are still getting the full range input. Soooo, here is the question for you experts (and I hope it is not too stupid!). Will I over drive the K33 woofers? They would now be seeing as much as an extra + 6 dB at 20 Hz, for example. Up to this point, I have not had any problems running full range to them, and the system sounds rather good, if I do say so myself. Just as a reference, I listen at or below ~ 90 dB at 10 ft away Anyone?? * Mods to the DEQ (no plan to run digital in or out) – new input op amps, direct out from the DAC to capacitors (avoiding all output op amps and related circuitry)

I have some experience here. We have Cornwall IIIs, and they are quiet (slightest hiss with your ear to the speakers) with no source input, and full gain on the preamp. As I recall, here is the system with tube details..... Preamp - Bottlehead Foreplay 3 with Telefunken 12AU7s Amp - Dennis Had 'Superamp' running 6DJ8 (BB)/EL84 (BB) driving 6CA7 (GE) in push-pull (class A) Plenty of power, and also very quiet. Oh, and I have a pair of SVS subs (25-31 PC-Plus) trying to keep up with the Cornwalls. Jim

I have not found it to make much difference unless you go to extremes (in wire gauge, that is). I still use multiple strands of magnet wire (copper wire with enamel insulation) after having earlier used the thick Monster rope, and other 'stuff'. Here is another recent discussion on the topic: http://www.audiodesignline.com/howto/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=E5B1CPNZNY3ROQSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=201805860 What a fun and also crazy hobby

- Contact Antique Electrronic Supply - Purchase 21 Ga magnet wire. ($5 for 100 ft). - Twist in pairs to get 18 Ga, strip the ends to bare Cu. - Hook up to speakers using any technique you like (bi-amp, bi-wire, bi-whatever) - Sit back and enjoy - Spend the money on music Another physicist has shared his opinion....[8-|]

Hi Pauln: I like your illustration! But I only got 154 uW. Does this mean I am both impolite and wrong? [] Cheers, trioid

I got my CWIIIs a bit over one year ago. The wall of sound is outstanding (6l6 pp amp driven by bottlehead foreplayIII). I believe you will be quite happy. Give 'em a little time, though. Mine just got tastier and tastier. Jim

nonetheless, IN MY CASE, it sounds better that is all.... jim

and, my experience is that it depends what the tubes are hooked up to. That is, it is the whole system that really makes it or not. Some speakers may be too laid-back for tubes, different tubes sound different, etc.

oops.... didn't think the first one went through!

Hmmm. My tube amp is a zero global feedback design. Other designs may not be so forgiving. following jackpod's comment: to be safe and take it out of our hands -- one should check with your amp manufacturer

I suspect that depends on if they have a feedback loop from the load, which mine does not. I can operate it safely with no load at all.

Peace ! I have inadvertently created a monster. [] In a sense, we are all on the same side..... here we are searching for the finest in audio. Unfortunately, electronics are subtle, and this tread is testimony to that. If we are to continue this, please folks, with some humility (no accusations here, just a request) trioid, aka jim [:$]

Hi speakerfritz: Thank you for bringing this up. It is a worthy concern and topic. I believe you are addressing the issue of use of an active XO, prior to the amps. Using one of those would eliminate your concern. In this case we would need to use it at pretty high frequency, like around 600 - 800 Hz, I believe. If I were to do that, each amp would receive only the frequency spectrum for the speaker it was driving. For the HF section, > 800 Hz (nominal) and LF, < 800 Hz. Doing that is fine, but you do not want to run both the passive and active XO. You would want to bypass all passive XO components in the Cornwalls. I do believe it would sound great. Each amp would be doing only what it is called to do. It would sound better than letting each develop all freqencies and throwing away a portion of a audio spectrum. However, as you know, I am using only the passive XO on the Cornwalls. Now, addressing the concern. (No one likes fried amps, and I am glad you spoke up!). I am not going to get into AC theory, or calculate phasors, or anything like that. I am in no shape to do that now. Here is my argument: The reflected portion of the band (< 800 or so Hz for the HF tube driven section) may provide some unwanted noise, but I do not think there is any significant additional power to dissipate. There is no load for the < 800 Hz frequency band; no load, no power that needs to dissipated. It is reflected 'stuff' that is not wanted and certainly does not help anything. It will create some small level of noise. That is my speculation. I have run these amps to pretty high power with this setup, and each is running as cool as ever, and not complaining in the least. And it sounds very tasty. Note that the tube amp has zero negative feedback, is transformer coupled, and the tubes are biased to class A anyway. In otherwords, it is already operating at near max plate dissapation even without music playing. I have rumbled the house with this setup, so that act should have pushed it over the edge and smoked if the amp if reflected power was an issue. So - let's get more discussion and thoughts here, as I think this is very important, and not trivial. I sure do not want to fry my amps! Furthermore, I would hate to see someone follow this, try it, and fry their amps!! Inputs? Opinions from experts in 'the electrics'? Cheers, Jim

Howdy Link: Sorry, the CWIIIs were my first Cornwalls - can't compare with CWI or II. Can compare with several other types of satellite/sub and acoustic suspension speakers, and there is no comparison. They win every catagory. You can look at the pictures of how the CWIIIs are put together. The fit and finish is excellent on mine, and they are solidly built from my poking around them. Check this out (if you haven't already) for further info on the bulid: http://www.cyclonecj.com/dtel/Dtelcorns-small/index.html FWIT: I would buy them again in an instant. Jim

Agreed! That was why I talked with Klipsch support. The old style XO circuit would not work with bi-amping without modification. They would not give me the new XO circuit.[:'(]. But, again, Steve Phillips, who is very helpful, assured me that bi-amping is A-OK with the new CWIII. [] later Jim Oh, and by the way, I stuck a VOM across the two negative terminals on the LF and HF and found no connection. That is how this whole thing got started with the desire to bi-amp these things. Talk about one thing leading to a another (no pun intended).

Nope - letting the passive XO on the CWs do all the work. Straight run from the SS to the LF terminals, likewise straight from the tube amp to the HF terminals. I thought about an active, but why do that? The XO's (LF, HF which must be separated) in the speaker should be fine -- do you agree?

Yes - the autoformers are still under consideration. I am not sure about the impedance being high on the mag wire. It is just plain copper, with a heavy insulation. If you go look at the current carrying ablility of 21 Ga Cu, it is pretty high, and should be quite sufficient for this application. Resistance should be minimal for these voltages, currents and frequencies. (I guess, anyway) Now, the tube amp is running just the HF, so I may go back to the 8 ohm tap on my amp and impedance should be pretty well matched. By the way - these really are BI-AMPED. the new Cornwalls allow that from the configuration of the XO. That was confimed by Steve Phillips at Klipsch.

Hi speakerfritz: A brief history. Prior to the bi-amping experiment above, I did have the CWs bi-wired. I did not do enough comparisons to really answer if it make much of a difference. What I had (have) is 21 Ga magnet wire in a dual twisted pair. It is unterminated - no banana or spade plugs, just stripped and used as is. It sounds just fine. The magnet wire is not CCC, it is the stuff you can get from Antique Electronic Supply. Sometime i will get higher quality mag wire and make new speaker wires. I will tell you this: the mag wire sounds one whopping bit better than the 'Munster' Cable (the thick grey rope stuff) that I had there before. Much higher detail level (also true according to the wife). Sure would like to have you give it a try if you are so inclined! It is a cheap experiment, but will probably take you an hour or so to get the wire stripped and attached. The current setup: The HF portion (tubed amp) is the 21 Ga magnet wire. The separate LF is being run from the SS amp to the woofers via the old 'Munster Cable''. I would like to stay tuned and hear about your results! So far I am oK with the cheap mag wire, but someday will need to make some improvements. Right now that is especially for the LF range in the bi-amped version - Note that the new Cornwall woofer goes all the way up to something like 800 Hz, so one is well into a freq. range where quality counts. I need to get something better in there. Cheers, jim

Greetings from AZ - For those of us obsessed with experimentation,....last night I tried bi-amping the CWIII's. Those now have the double terminals in back ,and it is quite simple and easy to bi-amp. Result: I paraphrase the wife* - 'I can can hear a 3 dimensional head singing right in the center'. 'The bass is nice and clean'. * Character reference - she is not easily impressed. sings in a band, has a ba in music, and phd in biochemistry Setup: - triode strapped 6L6 amp hooked to the HF (running Class A, PP, fixed bias) - Parasound SS current amp running the LF, output adjusted to balance with HF (bottlehead FPIII preamp, Shanling tubed output CDP) Try it if you have some spare equipment laying around - you might like it [] jim

Preamp and CDP, OK at least over the weekend. Power amp, no way. Fire it up when you are listening. Ready to listen in 5 min, 30 min and it is optimum. jim