Workin' Stiff

Hello all. I haven't been around for a while. Last time I was here, the Heritage line was not being produced. No orders were being taken and supposedly a new squaker or something was being tested. What's the latest on all this especially as it relates to Belle's and Khorns. Thanxxx in advance.

Boa12: Thanxxx for pointing out the needed corrections, which I've made. My fronts were set to large. Does seem ashame to set Khorns to small. At 89-90db it is very impressive. I'm just worried that I am over working the subs amp, the receivers amp or pushing the system towards bottoming out or clipping. I anxiously await more feedback espcially from Khorn owners with SVS sub(s).

I must be doing something wrong. I've had my SVS 16-46PC for a few weeks now. Been doing lots of "informal" testing. So far these have been my observations. First, my equipment: Front speakers: Klipschorns Center: Klipsch KLF-C7 Surrounds: Klipsch KSP-S6 (I think that's the model number) Subwoofer: SVS 16-46PC AVR: Sony STR-D935 (110 WPC) Plus a lot of other stuff of no importance, I guess I tried two positions for the sub. Position 1 has the sub between my television and the right front speaker. The Khorns demand the two front corners. I do the test tone thingy with the Video Essential DVD. If I set everything to 75db at my primary listening zone, the sub amp is on 6, the receiver sub setting is at -10db, Xover bypass is off, Xover knob is at minimal (50 I think, not that it matters), Phase is set to 0. I also temporarily connected one of those X-10 remote switchers on the SVS 16-46PC so I could remotely turn off/on the sub from my listening position. First, I play a cd with good solid strong bass with the sub off. (En Vogue:EV3 tracks 1 & 7, if anyone really cares). The volume dial is exactly at the 9:00 position, a normal volume level for me. I listen for about 30 seconds, then I use the remote to turn the sub on. I hear absolutely no difference. None, nada, zilch. I would swear the sub is not even on. I go up to the sub, check the light in the back and feel it and yes, it is on and playing, but too low to detect from the listening spot approximately 12-14 from the fronts. I return to my listening position and repeat a few times. Same thing. I repeat the whole thing. This time with the sub in the rear corner. I thought the walls would help resonant or enforce the bass. I have to raise the subs amp level to 7 to get 75db. Again, there is no difference between on vs. off at the listening spot. The sub has no impact with these settings and listening position. Next I return it to position 1, max out the subs amp (10). This gives my a reading of 81db. I can barely notice the difference. Finally, I change the receiver sub output to 0 instead of -10db. The sub amp is maxed out (10). This gives a reading of 89-90. Now all the things I've been reading about the SVS subs are apparent. From all these I've come up with the following conclusions. 1)Either my Khorns are producing phenomenal bass all by themselves (which they do have a reputation for in an ideal room, which I don't have) My room is far from idea. It's nonrectangular, has vaulted ceilings, small hallway, opening to stairway etc. Nevertheless the Khorns have enough corner to produce bass that is wonderful to me. Can't imagine what they'd sound like in a good or perfect room. Spec sheet say they run down to 35 hertz. It could be that the bass in my sample music is well withing this range or something else, I don't know. It would be real easy for someone the just blame the room. I won't buy that. 2)Something is wrong with my equipment especially receiver. (Possible) 3)I am doing something wrong or have the wrong idea about reference levels etc.(Most likely) It's like the way my sub perform at 89-90db is the way everyone else's sub is performing at 75db. I can't/don't/won't beleive my preference are so diffferent from everyone else. I'm pretty lost at this point. Any ideas. This message has been edited by Workin' Stiff on 05-16-2001 at 04:00 PM

JCturboT: I absolutely can not beleive you passed on a set of Klipsch Belle's in walnut for $650. Any chance they're still available? Seriously, I would appreciate any info !!

Let me add a few comments so people don't think I'm crazy. When I had my sub at 91db, it sounded good at low to medium volume (volume dial at 0900). Around reference level (1015-1030) although it still sounded good, the bass becomes overpowering. I think the key to good sound is balance. Maybe the 81db setting is a common preference for HT medium.

Don't most people set their subwoofers to 81 db? I had mine at 90 db until I got the Video Essential DVD. My reciever produced the test tones but not for the subwoofer. I liked it at 90 db but turned it down to 81 db anyways.

Thank you Mr. K

jwgorman: Man, I would have loved to have seen that !!!

Hmmmm.....I leave mine off most of the time so when I turn it on it's like a special occassion. I reserve it for times I really want to view something. I don't feel like it just has to be on for it's own sakes. I like to turn it on for music while cleaning the house or cooking but not if I'm doing something that requires my concentration. It's getting harder and harder for me to concentrate these days. I do like to listen to music while watching sports and turning the sound off on the TV. That's very cool. You know one other thing that's very cool? Listening to music in the dark. I think your brain and auditroy senses become very sensitive when all visual stimuli are removed.

Uhhhh.......there is no "2.2 uFd (microFarad) +-5% Hovland Music-cap" at www.madisound.com I can't find it anywhere.

I downloaded the design file for the Khorn Xover. In the part list file (parts.txt) there is an item listed as: Item 2.2 uFd. +-5% Hovland Music-cap I understand this to be a 2.2 "micro" Farad capacitor. On the www.madisound.com page there is only a 2.2 mFd. I would understand that to be a 2.2 "milli" Farad capacitor. Is one of these a misprint or I am I just dumb?

I can't determine the manufacture date of my Klipschorn with walnut oil veneer because there is no alpha/letter designator in my serial number. What can you tell me about these? When were they made? What woofer driver do I most likely have? . Speaker #1 Type:KB WO HF Serial: HF 8925426 1181/ 323 <0331> <0410> Crossover AK-2 Squaker: K-55-M Tweeter: K-77-M Inspected by: Maria Guerrero Tested by: Judy Clayton Type:KB WO LF Serial: LF 8925421 1181/ 323 <0331> <0410> Inspected by Maria Guerrero Tested by Judy Clayton Speaker #2 Type:KB WO HF Serial: HF 8925420 1181/ 323 <0331> <0410> Crossover AK-2 Squaker: K-55-M Tweeter: K-77-M Inspected by Maria Guerrero Tested by Judy Clayton Type:KB WO LF Serial: HF 8925427 1181/ 323 <0331> <0410> Inspected by Maria Guerrero Tested by Judy Clayton Thanxxx in advance

Allan, I love that Yogi Berra quote.

I hate to be a named dropper here, but SVS also has a nice list of good bass demos: http://www.svsubwoofers.com/faqs.htm Check the section marked "What are some great bass demos"

Hello again. I haven't been around much lately but once again I need your advice. I'm in the market for a new amp and I never make a purchase before consulting here and the HTF forum. I was lucky enough to pick up a pair of Klipschorns in walnut no less about 2 years ago. I got them from a very nice retired Navy man. Thanxxx again "Mr. Mac", where ever you are. I only paid $1200 for the pair!! Musically they are in excellent condition. The veneer is slightly damaged in two spots. Nothing major. This is by far the greatest bargain I've ever recieved, except for my lovely wife, of course. insert <suckuptowifejustincaseshefindsouthowmuchmoneyispentonhometheaterinsteadofhelpingherbyanewcar.wav> file here. Just for the record, I love my Khorns. Add me to the list of people that just sing their praises day in and day out. Everything you guys have said about them are true. My room for them is less than ideal but I am totally happy with their performance. Proper acoustical treatments and structural mods could only make them sound better and I think that would be scary. I have them in decent corners but not perfect super solid corners that extend the woofer as much as it could. The wall they are on is a little shorter than optimal (18' vs 27') so the true sweetspot is about 3 feet in front of my primary listen zone. Imaging is excellent at the listening zone and absolutly freakin' unbelievable at the true sweetspot. I like to read reviews on Khorns. Almost all owners swear by them but you know what I find more interesting? Those that don't. I am equally interested in reading about peoples criticisms and dislikes. I pay even closer attention to the reviews that are less than 5 star ratings. I am convinced that anyone that rates these speakers as less than average just did not have them set up correctly or has some sort of agenda they are trying to address. I find that people that rate them slightly below perfect have valid criticisms, reasonable expectations and are being open, honest, objectionable and fair. By far the most common criticism is that they can be considered too bright, tinny or shrill for some listeners. The common response to these complaints is better amp matching, which is why I'm posting here. For speakers, I also have the KSP-S6s, the KLF-C7 and a 12"Klipsch subwoofer (KSW-12 I beleive). I ordered the infamous SVS 16-46PC to replace the Klipsch sub. It should be here this Friday. I can't wait. I would really like to get a set of Belles for rears but I just can't swing that right now. I've budgeted those monies for a new HDTV this fall when the new models come out. I'm trying to create a balanced HT / Music system. My amp is a Sony 935. It's a decent entry level AVR for when I started but now I feel these speakers deserve something better. I've been doing my research on speaker / amp matching. I'm no expert. Many of the debates contain technical aspects that are simply way over my head, but I read them completley anyways. Even though I don't completely understand every nuiance I can usually comprehend the concept the poster is try to convey and value it accorddingly. Regarding Khorns, there seem to be two ongoing debates. (1) Integrated amps (AVR) vs. separates and (2) tube amp vs. solid state (SS). I read a thread discussing warmth (which I always thought was a good thing) as being the result of distortion (which I always thought was a bad thing). Very interesting. Khorners usually reccommend tube separates as the ideal set up, but isn't that mostly for a music set up? Doesn't HT suggest if not almost demand SS rather they be separates or integrated? I've boiled my favorite two choices down to (1) Sony TAN9000ES / TAE9000ES ($1558 for both) or (2) the Denon 5800 ($2400). Many Khorners say the Denons give the Khorns that warm sound. I've seen nothing regarding the Khorns and the Sony ES together. Does a SS pre-amp combined with a tube amp configuaration make any sense? I would think that might yield the best of both worlds but it may be the worst of all. I've seen very little talk of that hybridization. There must be a good reason for it's absence. Basically this thread is boiling down to another amp reccommendation post for Khorns in a HT/Music system. You know what else is funny. It's funny how fast you become desensitized to good sounding music. Sometimes I forget how good my Khorns sound. I've been listening to a lot of HT stuff lately so my emphasis has been on DVD explosions, earthshaking stuff, gut wrenching subsonics, which I found a little lacking with my KSW-12 and hence the SVS purchase. Last night, I hit the CD play button and just listened to some R&B with the sub off. Man, it was soo sweet. The bass was soo tight and accurate. I play bass guitar so I know how I like my bass to sound. Then I moved into the true sweet spot, it was even sweeter. I turned on the sub and again, even better. I really appreciate the difference when I hear my second and third "sound systems" in my computer room and bedroom. I don't know this for a fact but I'd be willing to bet that next to your sense of smell, your auditory senses are the next fastest to becoming desensitized. One last observation. My experience is very limited in auditoning high end audio equipment. Up until two years agos I truly believed Bose 901's were undeniably the worlds greatest speakers amongst true audiophiles. I've just recently been introduced to the names Magnapan, Electrostatics, Logan, Flutterman, Krell, Macintosh and other super high end stuff. I'm sure they sound all incredible. I can beleive they sound different. I can beleive they even sound what I would consider better, but I can't imagine they sound a lot better but I don't deny that they could. In the end, Khorns may not be the best speaker in the history of man. They may very well be the best performer dollar for dollar and certainly toward the top end of that list but even if they aren't, I seriously doubt I will ever replace my Khorns with a different front speaker as my primary sound system. I will leave these in my will for someone in my family that I know will appreciate and take care of them. There are very few other material things that I can say that about. I can't beleive I wrote this post. It sounds like I almost have a clue as to whats going on. Please comment or correct any misconception I have as I'm sure there are many. As always, thanxxx in advance