ClaudeJ1

Agreed with all of your points. Since you were influential in my (gladly) catching the "upgrade fever" in a minor way, I'd like to hear your opinion on the very top end of the 402's. Since you didn't like stock K77's and preferred a JBL2404 or Beyma Tweeter on your Khorns (I can't remember which), how does "air" at the top sound, say, from 10-20K? Is it as good as a good Beyma or JBL Tweeter? Is the fact that it radiates from the same voice coil rather than 2 feet forward a big issue? Enquiring minds want to know. Claude

I got 3 of them about 6 months ago. It fulfills PWK's often quoted remark that: "What the world needs is a good 5W amplifier." This is 6W/ch into 8ohms without distortion, so close enough. To my ears, it's the closest thing I ever heard to "straight wire with gain." It drives my Chorus II's wild in the dining room direct from a CD player's output. Claude

I laughed out loud when I read the term "monthly tweaker" I have had my stock, untouched Khorns for almost 30 years (got a loan for them the week before I got married at 23). Only after I came to this board, about 6 months ago, did I even consider messing with them. I think I have caught the disease and I'm moving forward slowly and carefully. I just got done litening to Eric Clapton's Concert DVD (recorded in LA) and Cream's Reunion concert at the Royal Albert Hall DVD. This after listening to Diana Krall Live in Paris. All excellent DTS recordings. My system was set up using the AVIA DVD with all the tones and a tripod fixtured Radio Shack Digital SPL meter before Xmas of 2006. THAT made a huge difference even before I messed with the capacitors or added the JBL's. I'm hearing all kinds of details I never heard before. This system kicks some serious ***, espcially when using the "Master and Commander" Canon scenes on DTS! As for the Marantz 8b, I remember telling PWK, the one day I spent at the Hope factory and his home with him, in early August of 1985, that he coudn't keep it in his museum (the oroginal 16x25x10 room), since I was currently using one on my 3 channel array (I had the bridged resisors/mono center to my lone LaScala). He remarked that it was a very good amplifier. I bought it the day my first daughter was born 25 years ago for $350. Sold it to my best friend's son in the 90's for $750 (it needed tubes). He sold it for $1,200 a few years later. I kinda wished I had kept it now, but I get superb definition from the cheap Onkyo 6.1 receiver, just amazing. My next step is to hook up a set of Heresy's in parallel in the back of the room to get the 6th channel going. It should add more ambience to my concert DVD's and movies. I'm sold on the 96kHz/24bit sound of DVD's for sure and I will try and convert my vinyl collection (600 LP's) to 2 ch. DVD's in the next few years.

They never sounded shrill until I started to mess with things. The Midrange detail opened up considerably when I put some 13 uF MPoly caps in my AA's. It's like the ESR of my original factory caps were dulling everything. Adding the JBL's is what added the shrillness because they were too hot, even before the new 2uF caps in the AA tweet section. The -2 DB autoformer tamed the JBL's so the shrillness is gone (it was there even with the old caps). I think when I have the new Warren crossovers, it will be better yet, since they were designed specifically for that driver and not a K77, which is the section what I'm (mis)using now. The 6.1 signal processing and the 5 Onkyo amps are wideband and sound amazing with the right recordings. I used to have HarmonKardon tubes, then bad SS, then decent SS (Dynaco), then Marantz 8b/recappted Tubes, then Hafler Mosfet, then the Onkyo, so I know what tubes sound like. The differences between tubes and SS have diminished ever since Matti Otala published his paper on Transient Intermodulation Distortion in 1971. Allowing 10 years for the world to catch up, I'd say SS has been darn good for at least 27 years. I used to work with VSP Labs chief engineer (who did a fine transconductance-CMOS amp) back in 1981. He said he had a tough time coming up with a discrete front end as good as Natinoal NE 5534 op amps. I can't imagine that Audio IC's have gotten worse in the last 25 years. It could be that we need the softer edges of tubes and their promient and pleasant 2nd harmonic distortions in the power amp sections to compensate for the crisp transient response of horns, who knows? But I find the Onkyo's amplifiers to be just fine for now. Claude

Well I finally pried open the schedule and finished upgrading the tweeter sections of my 3 AA networks (bunch of 2 uF audio caps I got free from a friend whose son worked for Harman). I began by upgrading the 13uF caps on the midrange on all 3 channels and THAT was a real reveleation. The K400's never sounded so good. I had plugged in the JBL 2404's in place of the K-77's using the old caps and that was another improvement, but it hurt my ears on many recordings. Changing to the new caps didn't improve the problem, but everything definitely sounded much "crisper" than before with the 30-year old factory capacitors. Tried going back to K-77's with the new caps, but they sounded very dull after being spoiled by the JBL's. So, thanks to Bob Crites advice and his Autoformers, I dropped the level by 2 dB on the JBL's and they sound fine with the re-capped AA twweter section. Things keep getting better with the latest "taming" of those JBL's which are more efficient than the K77's (the magnets on the tweeters are bigger than the mid driver). Now I'm working on small Walnut enclosures and new (John Warren) Xovers to make those JBL 2404's on the Khorns "self-contained" and portable. I can't use the third one on top of the LaScala because messes up the CRT on my TV (I'm an HD holdout), so I'm stuck with a K77 in the middle channel for a while. Has anyone here had similar experiences? Claude

I found my old Audio Papers with PWK's autograph, from when I was still a kid. In describing "A New High-Frequency Horn," in the paper dated Nov. Dec. 1963, PWK describes the K-400 as being an improvement over the K-5-J in all aspects of horn perfomance. Lower cutoff frequency of 240 vs. 300 for the old horn. Also he cites flatter response above 3,000 Hz vs. the old horn, along with a high frequency extension to over 6,000 Hz. vs. 5,000 Hz. for the K-5-J. Paul always refered to a "metal copy" of his K-5-J, which I assumed meant the Altec 511-B. So, leaving all of your latest Tractrix designs out of it for a moment, Roy, why do so many of the people on this board substitute a "metal copy" (511B) on top of a K-horn, LaScala, or Belle as being audibly superior, when PWK's papers clearly show it as inferior. Did Altec make that much of an improvement to the K-5-J by adding those partition things near the mouth? Also, can I purchase a K-510 horn lens for my EV DH1A drivers? Or do I have to buy drivers AND horns like I do for the 402?? TIA

Since I am guilty of starting this thread, let me just say that I caught the "upgrade disease" from this forum, real bad. Then yesterday, I just simply took some audio grade polypropylen capacitors I got from a friend of mine and replaced the original capacitors (big cans) in my center channel LaScala's AA network. Even though I'm only listening to 1/3 of the front sound, the difference was night and day, detail wise, it made everything more crisp and with greater depth, amazing. I guess I never realized how badly age and ESR would affect the sound (thank you Bob Crites). Next step is to disconnect the JBL's hooked up to my Khorn's tweeter section of the AA's (more detailed than the T-35's but too bright). When I replace those caps, I will plug in the original T-35's and see how it sounds. It may be that all I needed were new capacitors in my 30-year old AA networks (I was a 23 year old when I got my 3-channel Klipsh array). In the mean time, I will build Walnut enclosures for the JBL 2404's and the new Xover I'll be making (thanks John Warren) so I can at least compare them to properly functioning stock Khorn drivers instead of comparing to old/faulty capacitors. Heck, I may even end up selling off this extra crap I have collected and sticking to the originals. I don't think the K-400 is as "relatively bad" as 511 and Trachorn devotees make it out to be, I hear lots of detail and depth with my setup, but I will find out the truth for myself, eventually, in MY room, which is the most important component anyhow. My Klispsh sound journey began when myself and another curious Detroit News paperboy ventured into the Hi-Fi Workshop store, only 2 blocks from out newspaper station. The men there were patient with these inquisitive 13 year olds in 1967. It only took me 10 more years to save up the money to own Klispchorns (installed in my mobile home no less). I got married that same year and moved to an apartment. When I turned in my paperwork, the lady of the park said, "Oh, you're that one that has been entertaining your neighbors."..............Hey, I was just exercising one of the 4 principles. Meanwhile, continuing the journey here 40 years later has been enlightening and positive, so I encourage you all to continue making constructive comments backed with facts and experience instead of wasting bandwidth with insider/personal/flaming stuff.

Omagod, that is the most insane setup ever for a horn freak. Is it a Japanese Doctor?

Yeah, well, why be a wimp about it, if size is not and issue then one should go for maximum perfomance. Bigger is ususally better when it comes to horns it seems.

Not sure what you mean by "Everyone here"--hardly more than a few have gone that route. They just post far more frequently than the thousands who keep things stock. "PWK approved horn" is not correct. PWK never even saw the 402, let alone heard it. He used the 403 in his public demo of the Jubilees, and had the 403 in his own home. Unfortunately PWK became too infirm and eventually died before the Jubilee top was completed to his satisfaction. What is available from the factory is the Jubilee low frequency bin, which was the big deal to PWK anyway, and your choice of either the 510 or 402 from Klipsch for higher frequencies, or some other non-Klipsch configuration of your own choice. The Jubilee as it exists today should be viewed as a tinkerer's speaker (because of the top and lack of aesthetics), and not a finished, home product. Better heard and not seen, it is something that calls for the purchaser's active involvement, rather than a speaker you can just relax and forget about as you enjoy the music. Well I didn't know the 402 was designed after the 403 was designed. I actually was at Ceasar's Palace for a photo convention, which was, co-incidentally at the tail end of the CES show that year. in Jan. 1999. I was pleasantly surprised to see Klispsh sign in the Hallway and walked in. I think I met Roy, but I'm not sure it was him, certainly looked like the guy in PWK's biography. Anyway I had been to PWK's house in 1985 and I wanted to say hi and see if he remembered me, but I missed him by 10 minutes. I saw the Jubilees there and they looked gorgeous. I'm assuming that's when the photo of Paul with the Jubs was taken, but I digress. Of course I was referring to only those people on the forum that upgrade they Khorn tops and not the guys who just listen to stock units. So, "everyone" implied everyone that does top end tweaks only not those other guys. It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow. I'm not looking for an argument either way. I have live with my stock 1977 Khorns for 30 years and this group got me thinking about upgrades. So far, so good. So I got some free audio grade capacitors from a friend whose son is an audio engineers and I'm recapping all 3 AA's on my fronts. I'm also building a self-contained walnut boxes (from the front faces of old desk drawers) to match the Walnut on my K's to house a Xover designed by John Warren for my JBL 2404's, which will sit above my disconnected T-35's. They are too bright the way they sit now with the AA tweeter section going direct so that will be the next incremental improvent with an eye for a future mid Horn for my DH1a's. The mids are a more expensive and laborious proposition vs. the tweeter upgrade that's for sure. I don't want to do it twice.

I have read here that you have sold your Khorns and have ordered some Jubilees, so YOU have definitely put your checkbook where it counts. Are you saying that you have paid extra to get rid of a vertical polar pattern, meaning you would have paid extra to get the 403 horn, if it were available? Form the photos, the huge 402 looks like a conical horn with a Tractrix flare at the end, is that what you are talking about? I thought the old K-5-J was the one that PWK claimed copied into metal and just added the sectionals. That was a radial exponential horn, right? Did that one have a collapsing vertical polar pattern?

actually.....no....poo poo, the 403 original horns, to see if they would work, were made out of fiberglass as were all our horns that we were prototyping. we decided to go wood in order to show the horn "naked" on top of the lf. biggest deviation between the 510/402 and 403 was that the 403 had collapsing vertical polar patterns and controlled horizontal polar patterns while the 510/402 had both vertical and horizontal polar patterns be controlled. have a blessed day, roy delgado If understand this correctly, this means that with higher frequency, the "beamwidth" for lack of a better layman's term, gets narrower in the vertical but is maintaned in the horizontal. This would appear to be a good design choice (trade-off?) to get a smaller, more aesthetically pleasing, yet still good sounding, horn, right? Since the 402 is being used behind a screen (it's design intent) then bigger is better and aesthetics be damned, it's the performance........................................am I on the right track here?

Well, your sense of humor certainly hasn't collapsed. I find this wickedly funny. Thanks for the laugh and the info.

hope this helped. have a blessed day, roy delgado Tremendously so. Thanks for your time and insights.

OK, so now I'm really confused. Are we talking about a 400Hz Xover here??

My goal was to make a Tractrix horn similar to the Trachorn from ALK for the EV drivers, but going a bit larger so the horn cutoff is a bit lower. But, if just the horn lens were available alone at a reasonable price...............I thought, because of the name, the 402, it was a 400 Hz. horn, just like the 401, only new/improved and designed by Roy. I have the space above the Khorn in my corners. So if the Khorn has had 400 hz. exponential horns since 1957, and 50 years later I can upgrade to a superior 400 Hz horn, at a nominal cost, why not do it? Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it. I don't have a big budget for this as I got a lot of my parts in trade, etc. for other stuff. so a $2,000 upgrade is out of the question. I have a LaScala center channel (going back to 1977), but for HT, I can't upgrade that one to a larger horn because I will need the room above it for a projector screen. This is a slow and careful project for me and I'm trying to get the best bang for the buck. Since you own these things, do you feel you are in need of a super tweeter with them? Or are the highs OK. Do you have a passive or active Xover? If so, is the horn a CD type horn that requires a 6 db/octabve attenuation towards the low end of the 3.5-20K band? Also, since I think K&A were buying their drivers from EV, I was going by the notion that horn may have been developed for a K&A branded EV driver .

I have 3 spare Electro Voice DH1A drivers with old CD horns. I'm thinking of upgrading my Klipschorn tops to your large 402 horn and using a digital crossover with time delay for Bi amping. Is the horn lens itself available for purchase? Will my drivers bolt right on to it? If not, can they be adapted? Is this an improment or am I wasting my time? If this is an improvement, is it lower distortion at higher levels and better phase cohenrence and imaging? Am I correct in assuming that this will go to 20K hz. since the 2" throat drivers are titanium? If so will they require a CD equalization, which is built in to the Xover anyhow? TIA

I'm even more skeptical when I would have to send $1,200 ito Japan for paper, coil, magnet, and frame to replace something made in the USA that's already proven to work. Talk about the law of diminishing returns. If I were to do this, I would, by law of the golden ear, have to spend at least $1,000 on a pair of speaker cables and use only silver solder for the tips.

Cheaper to buy a digital parametric EQ and a couple of used amps on the stock woofer to up the 300-400 hz dip. Claude, but what the heck do I know?

OK, now I get it. Too funny!!

You obviously didn't read it, and just complained about it, so just forgetabouttit. It's not important.

OK, so how do the Mid horns sound??

During my one and only trip to Hope to spend a day with PWK, in 1985 (before Roy, and while both GG and JH were there), I asked PWK what he thought of monster cable, since Khorns were shipping with the fatter wires.............his reply was "it's wasted driving 30 AWG wire in a woofer voice coil." I suspect it was more of a marketing decision rather than an engineering one, but I guess can't hurt.

Is the K55V driver a 16 ohm driver? AND can the Klipsch autofomer be used with an 8 ohm driver. If so, do you sell them, if not, do you sell them? Claude