Raider

What is the Retail pricing of the KL-7800-THX and KS-7800-THX? Is there a price list for the THX and In-wall products? Thanks

I have to agree with MAS; Monster makes a pretty good product, but is better at marketing. I attended CES in 2003-2005 and always noticed that Monster typically had about $1 million worth of exotic cars, Lamborghini, Ferrarri, Maserai, etc., in their booth to attract traffic. The last year I was there, I was near the booth at the end of the show, and as soon as the clock struck on the hour, some very paranoid guys were very busy getting the cars out of the venue amid the chaotic tear down that had begun, so that they could return them to the rental company. That about summed up the situation for me. I also found out at CES that there are a few PAC-RIM build houses from which a majority of all the product comes from. In many cases cosmetics are the only distinction, which can be customized easily for a client. Most anything with a moulded end comes from these houses. There are good cables available, but research before you buy to find out if the cables are really any different from the mass manufactured stuff.

I have one of these on order: http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=451767&CTID=5001800 Has DVD audio/SACD and upconverts to 1080p. DCDi by Faroudja. Audio direct mode, 192 khz/24bit DAC, RS232 port. I chose it for the high quality video processor and high quality audio features. The OPPO units get good reviews, however my friend who does high end home theatre says they can be problematic to customize and integrate with some remotes; may or not be an issue for you..

If there is a resonance that is audibly apparent, I have found this product to work well, especially on metal surfaces: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-250&raid=54&rak=268-250 fairly inexpensive in spray form, or http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-256 by the gallon which can be sprayed with a compressor or applied with a brush. See also http://www.cascadeaudio.com/prod/vb1x.html for more information. Its also good for treating the inside of speaker enclosures as well. It is a latex product, so there are no fumes and cleanup. I have used this product in car audio applications where metal panels resonate, and have found it to be easy and effective. Based on my experience it would be my first choice in this application.

Tom: Wow. Thanks for a frank and honest reminder of what the season is really about. Merry Christmas.

I recently bought four RF82's and an RC62, shopping at four local dealers. Put 37067 in the ZIP code in the dealer locator, and try HiFi buys (ask for Paul, John, or Ed) or Kincaid furniture (ask for Mark; this is where I purchased), Audiomasters, or STL Home (a Platinum level Klipsch dealer, ask for Rhoades). All are in the Nashville area.

I have noticed an interesting phenomenon, not just here, but on many other forums. Folks will go to a forum to post a problem instead of pursuing the matter through established channels (i.e. 800 telephone numbers, customer service email addresses, dealer or retailer points of warranty service, etc.). In many cases they will even post on a general forum that has no formal association with the manufacturer or product. Some create a forum account just for this purpose. I wonder if when their car breaks or needs service, do they first post on a forum about it? Or if their car fails after the warranty expires, do they go to a forum and bad-mouth the manufacturer? Now I can understand if someone first takes the issue up with whomever services the warrranty, and/or with the customer service department and gets no response, that they might feel it necessary to seek other help. It just puzzles me why some folks seem to go to a forum for such things first. Instead of calling 911 in an emergency, do they post first? Similarly, how can anyone expect to be taken seriously when they won't go to the trouble to learn, or use, even the most basic communications skills in writing or speaking? And I guess if you throw in a little profanity, that helps your credibility? I just find it interesting that some people show little or no respect or responsibiltiy for themselves, yet can't understand why manufacturers and others won't bend over backwards to accomodate them. I have wondered if there is a psychological issue of some kind at play in some of these cases. Some of course are nothing more than trolls. Another phenomenon I have noticed is the decline of the ability, or willingness, to debate issues in a constructive manner. It used to be that two people could engage in a forensic exercise, vehemently debate an issue, then go have a beer and a few laughs. On forums nowadays, the least little disagreement or difference of opinion foments into a series of vociferous, if not vicious personal attacks. Related to this is the tendency of some people to take advantage of anonymity and say things or conduct themselves in a way that would likely result in having your clock summarily cleaned were it said face-to-face. A sort of cyber-cowardice. I guess that's one of the reasons I enjoy this forum, because it is for the most part free of these modern phenomena.

My wife got me four RF82's and an RC62. Found out she ulterior motives though. She is enjoying them as much or more than me.

I have service with Directv currently, and have had service with Dishnetwork previously. However I just bought an HD TV and need to upgrade service to HD. Of the two which has the best picture quality/signal quality? Is there any difference in the compression used? Which has the best service? Directv currently has a waiting list of late Januar for HD DVR's; Dish is immediately available. While Dish has 27 HD chanels to Direct's 11, I have heard that Direct is putting up a satellite and will have the capability of 150. Is this true? When is Direct likely to actually have this in place, vs. marketing promises. I am NOT looking for any type of flame war here. But I thought feedback here might be more objective than from an HT forum. What has been your actual experience? Is there anything I might want to know that isn't obvious on the surface? Any objective information appreciated. Thanks in advance

I've been considering this unit as well. It has the best black levels of any LCD I have looked at. Two other attributes that set it apart are the quality of its video processor, in that it handles standard def material unusually well. One night I asked CC to play SD on it and they lit up their entire bank of TV's on the SD feed, and the Sharp(s) handled the material as well or better than than any other units. Another thing I noticed was was how well the unit handled motion. I compared it to the Samsung and Sony peer units and when watching football, the turf in the background lost detail and smeared together on the Sony/Samsung, while the Sharp was considerably better in maintaining resolution of the detail. But what I liked the most, and something that could be appreciated at any distance was the amount of detail, which brought a three dimensional quality to the picture that was not as evident in its peer products. The only reservation I have is the banding issues, though the research I did last week indicated that those with serial numbers from 611... on did not seem to be having the trouble (611 indicating a November '06 date of manufacture). Can't help you with the Denon compatibility questions though, but the folks at AVSforum could help you if you post on the owners thread for the Sharps. Street prices around here are hovering in the $2500-2800 range fwiw. One reason I have decided to wait a while to buy, besides being sure the banding QC issue is resolved, is that I read an industy press release from Samsung that indicated they expected the LCD market to saturate the first quarter of 07, which according to supply and demand would imply that prices will fall near the end of the first quarter on all LCD's.

I recommend that you go here: http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=4 Download the owner's manual, and build the enclosure to JL's specs.

You might try posting at http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl . DIY forum which is pretty friendly to noobs. Also you might read the speaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason available at the same site which is an excellent resource on building speakers of all kinds. Good Luck

I have the RF82's and RC62. The RF82 has a slightly more open midrange that is particularly good with the warmth of the midrange; The RC62 is particularly good at the upper timbres of the midrange where the timbre female voices, harmonics in strings, and airiness and ambience reside. For this reason the RC62 is a great center because of the clarity it brings, and complements the RF82 very well. Tweeter sounds identical on both wihich makes for a seamless soundstage. The RF82's by themselves image well, and the addition of the RC62 brings additional clarity without drawing attention to itself. I'd keep the RF82's; they have a deeper more dimensional bass response that gives you a sense of space over the R62's. Never heard the RF82's wth the RC52 so i can't help you there.

Darkside Given what you are saying, I would definitely advise you to look at the JLAudio 12w6. It has most all of the sound quality that the W7 has, and can be easily driven with about 300-500 watts. They are bringing about $250 in street prices here. Another excellent low cost alternative is the Parts Express Reference subs. These can be purchased under $150 and work in very small enclosures and work well with about 500 watts as well. They have excellent support through the PE community on the forum at the partsexpress.com site. They are known for their value and excellent sound quality. But if you can spring for the W6, I would definitely take that route. See

I've done several subs in high-end installations in several cars using sealed, ported, bandpass, IB, and aperiodic loading. I have used several subs that were OEM'd by TC Sounds, and they are excellent products. JL Audio products are generally considered the reference standard for subs in that they provide both sound quality and output. Their product line focuses on providing optimum value at each price point and on niche products that optimize around a specific design criteria. One differentiator between TC and JL is the amount of R&D and refinement done by both firms, relative to other industry brands, as well as the amount of resident knowledge. However, JL takes this to the next level, and is known for being careful to fully develop a product before introduction, even at significant loss. While both companies manufacture in house domestically and are vertically integrated at this point, another differentiator for JL is that component parts of each driver are generally purpose-built for that specific driver, with a lesser amount of parts sharing across models. They often bear cosmetic and familial resemblance, but are in fact different. For example the automotive W7 and the driver in the F113 appear to be the same, but JL's site shows the subtle but significant differences. So if I were in your position, with no restraint on budget, I would choose JL. You will also find their pre and post purchase support exemplary. A couple of things have been touched on earlier, but bear repeating. First is that without question a sealed enclosure is the easiest to predictably implement in a vehicle environment. The natural rolloff of the driver in a sealed enclosure is offset by cabin gain below the resonant frequency of the vehicle. This enables flat response to the limits of hearing with little or no equalization necessary if enclosure size is properly utilized. Also, the sealed enclosure can be built in most any shape, assuming proper construction with non-resonance as the goal, which is a great advantage with the odd shape of vehicle interiors. (By the way JL offers some excellent fiberglass enclosures made to fit certain vehicles in an unobtrusive manner). Other enclosure types can certainly be done and done well, but the variables involved require considerable knowledge and expertise to properly implement. On the other hand sealed enclosures are relatively simple, predictable, and foolproof in the vehicle envoronment and are far more likely to yield best results. Another thing to consider as far as real world listening is concerned, is that the subwoofers you are considering are flagship products designed for maximum (read that capable-of-inducing-hearing-loss) levels well above normal and even very loud listening levels. Output of these subs will actually modulate your voice if you speak within a vehicle at extreme outputs, and you can feel you inner ear fluttering as it tries to protect itself. Certainly the stuff of bragging rights, but not something that can be safely enjoyed on a routine basis, as hearing loss is a function of both output and length of exposure. Indeed industry professionals that attend CES often use hearing protection at these shows. Consider yourself warned. Also since these subs are capable of extreme output, they require commensurately extreme power. Generally to get a super-sub to properly perform, at least a kilowatt of power will be needed to attain maximum levels. And as DocWho points out, ampifiers drawing this kind of power will tax the output capability of even vehicles equipped with heavy duty alternatiors and batteries. About an aggregate of a kilowatt total for all ammplifiers used is the practical output limit for most cars. Often super-subs are not linear, that is, it may take a lot of power to make the unit really come alive acoustically, but at lower more normal levels they may lose sensitivity. So the balance at different output levels may be hard to dial in. The W7 and W6 are actually unusually good at both moderate and high levels. TCSounds to their credit is careful to note the intended use of their various subs in order to create realistic expectations with prospective customers, as well as realistic expectaations for power requirements. This aids the customer in making an appropriate selection. Some folks find it a better solution to use a more moderate amplifier (around 500 watts), and a sub or two of a more moderate design. This can provide a better, more listenable and musical solution, but one that is still capable of producing very loud and visceral volumes. You might consider for example using one or two W6 JL's instead of a W7. One reputable auto sub reviewer pronounced the W6 as the best sub he had ever heard, so don't overlook this possibility. Good luck on your purchase. It will be difficult to not be happy with whichever alternative you choose.

Both Best Buy and HHGregg have the Sub10 on sale for the holiday weekend for $199. Heckofa buy at that price if you need a low cost sub. I just wish they'd run the Sub12 on a similar sale...

TheEAR has one; he's probably your best source of info. I haven't seen any reviews of this sub, and only a limited number on the RT12d. TheEAR usually posts later at night.

Maybe the Q-Link folks that make those golf pendants will make a medallion that you can place between the drivers to synchronize their output. Or we could make something out of exotic wood with healing properties used by the ancient Mayans............

I've been looking for something very similar with a very similar situation. From what I have found I would recommend first that you consider the Sub 12. This is a really good sub at it's price point. I have heard it capably fill the BB warehouse with great bass; I'm sure it can handle your room. It's deep, musical, and blends well with many different speakers. It can be purchased usually at BB for $450. HHGregg has these as well. DrWho recommended these as a great value and very underrated sub, and I'm finding this to be true. I find it compares well with many subs in the $1k range. If you go the Titanic route, I would recommend that you Get the 500 watt HPS sub amp, the Reference 12"HF sub and their prebuilt 2.0 cubic foot enclosure, precut for the driver and amp. Similar output to the Titanic, but much better sound quality, and well regarded by the DIY comunity. Another DIY option is the 12" Rythmik Audio Kit, which is a servo sub and will have great sound quality more comensurate with your Heritage room. Also consider the PSB subs. They have a 12" in your range which I find to be very musical, blends well, but doesn't extend as deep as the Sub12. Frankly, from what you describe, and what I have found from my searching, and at your pricepoint, I'd go with a known quantity (Klipsch) go to a BB or HHG, get a Sub12, and call it a day.

While each design type has inherent advantages, and disadvantages, it is often the quality in execution of the design that makes more difference.

Great idea. And a great tribute to PWK's legacy, and tie-in to Klipsch heritage. Down loadable PDF's would be nice.

Interesting. This subject was discussed previously in the thread http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/782250.aspx . The effect you describe is frequency dependent in all arrays to some degree. and is known as comb filtering, due to the resultant shape of the speakers response on a graph when measured from a fixed point. This is most noticable in the frequency range whose wavelength corresponds to the driver spacing. This is a downsidel when using multiple drivers in an array to reproduce the same frequency spectrum. The upside is that multiple smaller drivers can be more efficient than a larger heavier-coned driver of the same area, and the multiple motors can offer better control of transients. Also, the resulting narrower profile of the front face of the speaker significantly improves the ill effects of baffle step diffraction from the reflections off of the front face of the speaker. These benefits are often more audible than comb filtering, so its a pretty reasonable engineering tradeoff. And comb filtering can also be compensated for to some degree by speaker positioning, as you are doing, for really critical listeners. Klipsch elects to use a tapered array crossover in their center channel Reference speakers to help compensate for this, but not in the vertically oriented towers. Most folks seem to think the phenomenon is more noticable in a horizontal plane. Your experience, and that of others, seems to indicate some are more sensitive than others to this effect in the vertical plane as well. It would be interesting to know why Klipsch doesn't use the MTM arrangement (mid-tweeter-mid) preferring a TM, TMM, or TMMM arrangement in their towers, but uses the MTM or MMTMM arrangement in their centers. Its all about engineering tradeoffs and best compromise, but it would be interesting to hear the logic behind their choice articulated. I certainly can't argue with the results.

I've shopped with 5 dealers near me. All have been friendly, accomodating, informative, and helpful. When pricing I was upfront that I was comparing the dealers to each other. I see no advantage to buying via internet resellers and transhippers from a cost perspective. The dealers in my area offer excellent support both before and after the sale with full warranty, and are price competitive with the internet operations.

You've got alot to look forward to. As far as the size, its like the hot rodders say, there's no replacement for displacement.

I recently compared the JL Audio F113 and the RT12d at my local dealer on RF83's. Both had utilized their on-board DSP's to optimize to the room. You can't make a bad choice here. The differences in the two are expressed in terms of sonic signature and output. Both represent an excellent solution for deep, extended, musical bass with a minimal space intrusion in terms of footprint. Both are a tribute to the engineering expertise of their respective designers in balancing priorities. We listened to the subs alone, and then with the RF83's on a variety of music. When played alone the difference in sonic signature is subtle, but evident. The RT12d is musical and phat with deep response, but you can hear a subtle difference in the attack/delay times of this sub on some material. I think this is somewhat characteristic of subs with passive radiators, and the RT12d was very slightly less well-defined compared to the F113. On the other hand the F113 had a clarity that is more typical of sealed subs, even at the very lowest frequencies. Though both integrated with then RF83's very well, I was able to localize the RT12d to some degree dependent on the musical content; the F113 didn't draw any attention from the mains. The F113 had an audibly more solid response at the very lowest frequencies, and was even more visceral at all frequencies. The JL added what I can best describe as an ethereal nature to the music, because its clarity and integration of the lowest bass frequencies is something you seldom hear except with really good headphones. I came away thinking that the RT12d is 95% as good as the JL, and for what it is designed for, which is to provide lowest octave reinforcement for the Klipsch line with an emphasis on music, it is a choice that most listeners will be thrilled with. It should be noted that at street prices with typical discounts, the JL approaches nearly twice the cost of the RT12d. Actually the F112, at a more similar price point, is more comparable to the RT12d. I also heard the F112, and found that the differences between it and the RT12d were essentially the same, but much less pronounced. For the most discerning listener who has to have the very best articulation even at the lowest frequencies, and/or who has a very large space the F113 would be a better choice, assuming there is no budget constraint. It is the best sub I have ever heard. But at a cost. The cost is nearly double to attain that last 5% differentiation from the RT12d in performance. This also underscores the solid value that the RT12d represents. Nothing demonstrates the law of diminishing returns better than audio. But you should decide what sounds good to you. That's all that really matters anyway after the dust and the opinions settle.