Domain

I appreciate all the replies From the countless reviews i've read, message boards i've scoured, and the replies here, I suspect I won't be disappointed with one of these subs, but I suppose I can always send it back if thats not the case. The "size" issue shouldn't be too much of a problem I hope (I'm working with a limited space bedroom/HT combo), from the measurements of their website, the "floor space" is similiar to the KSW-12, just 4 times the height . Looks aren't too much of an issue either, i'm really more concerned with the sound output anyway, but those SS sure are pretty. As for the KSW-12 I just have mixed feelings about this one. Sometimes it does everything I expect, sometimes I have to peer into the corner to make sure its actually on. Maybe its too "subtle", i'm not quite sure how to explain it, but there are times when I want to "feel" the bass, and it just isn't happening. I suppose its a sorta unfair comparsion as well (the SVS is $350+ more than what I payed for the KSW), but the input was definately helpful. I plan to keep it around even if the SVS makes it here though, i've become awful attached to my HT gear in the past year Thanks again, ------ Domain This message has been edited by Domain on 04-21-2002 at 09:30 PM

A Y-Cable is not a requirement, but it will up the subwoofer output a tad (I believe it was said, though I could be wrong, a Y will give +6db over a single input). ----- Domain

Hi all, I've been fairly successful tackling "upgraditis" (mostly due to my college student budget), but I'm finally starting to succumb to its grasp again, and am hoping to get a opinions on my "subwoofer dilemma". A year ago, I purchased a "pre-packaged" Klipsch set (SF-1, SC-1, SS-1, KSW-12) and for what I payed I couldn't be happier with the performance, but I've always felt a little disappointment on the bass end (seems like something is missing). I've just brushed it off thus far, but now I'm strongly considering a change in this area. So, anyway to on the real question: I've been looking and perhaps purchasing one the SVS PCi series subwoofers (20-39, or 25-31), but unfortunately I don't have any first hand experience with these, just what I've read in reviews. So I was hoping to find some opinions regarding this matter. Does anyone have any side by side experience with these models (or similar)? If so, how noticeable is the difference? Also, any opinions on how one of these things would match/not match the rest of my speakers? It is quite easy to be deluded into spending more money believing I'll get better sound...I just don't want to make the mistake of buying a sub, that is either not going to live up to my expectations, or is going to be so radically different performance wise, it will overshadow the rest of my system. I appreciate any replies, Domain This message has been edited by Domain on 04-19-2002 at 04:17 PM

When I recieved my first CP1 early/mid last year, everything seemed to be working fine for awhile, until one day the Rear Right speaker became insanely louder then all the other channels. In response, I posted on this messageboard, was contacted by a Klipsch rep, and the CP1 was replaced promptly. Now, after completing a move, I finally got around to pluging in my Promedia's, with some interesting results. First, I noticed a large amount of static coming from the Rear Left speaker. After playing around with the connection, I found that it worked as long as the plug was only half way into the back of the sattelite. Of course, then I also noticed that the Rear Right speaker had become insanely loud again. I did all the normal checks on the connections and what-not, and everything was fine. I also cut/restriped the speaker wire, with the same results. Luckily, I still had my original CP, so I disconnected the CP1, and now everything is working fine again (rear speaker is at right volume, and I can put the plug all the way in on the rear left sattelite). So, what I want to know is...is there any recourse for this problem? It has been quite some time since the CP1 was replaced (7-8 months maybe), and i'm not sure what the "warranty" on this item would cover. I appreciate any information/assistance, Domain

The KSW revisited You might check out the following link: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/PCI.html I too have battled with this issue, but after I tweaking, and tweaking, and adjusting, and tweaking...and well you get the point, I found the method in the above link gives the best results. I made one minor change to the above method however... I set my Denon's sub level to -12 db, and used the level on the KSW instead. The sub seems to produce a "different" sound when done in this fashion, however your mileage may vary. Domain I can never get the Smilies right...bah This message has been edited by Domain on 06-20-2001 at 10:04 PM

Boa, I think his post was well thought out, and gave a good deal of technical information as to why, rather then just a answer without a explination. Definately though, its all going to depend on equipment, personal tastes etc . I think I finally got the sound I want (still "seems" a little weak in the low end, but i'm begining to like it more and more ). Then again, i've been thinking about adding to/or replacing the KSW with one of those monster SVS subs Domain <- "Someone take away my CC's before I go broke"

Boa, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say Did you mean running a Y-adapter (or rather I guess it would be a "tri"-adapter ) from the recievers L/R/Sub preouts strictly to the KSW's unfiltered LFE input? If thats the case, then there *shouldn't* be any summing of the signal, so no db increase. The power requirements I was refereing to would apply to the KSW's amp, when you connect from strictly the recievers Sub preout to the KSW L/R/LFE input via "tri"-adapter. Anyway , I read a real interesting post (very informative) about the whole crossover / sub, etc issue: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/003524.html Specifically check Brian Florian's post (6th post down). Domain <- "Mind overflow - Too much information, not enough space left"

Boa, Yeah these KSW's have been an interesting experience. Or perhaps the problem is that I'm trying to make it more complicated then it needs to be. Anyway, adding the L & R inputs will give you that db increase, but then you would just be reintroducing the KSW's crossover back into the mix ("cascading effect"). The other thing that concerns me about using all 3 inputs is the power requirements involved. Now I assume (once again, something better directed toward BobG), that the L & R inputs (giving ~6db increase) are upping the power requirements almost 4 times. Adding the LFE unfiltered input to these (which may give either ~3.6 or ~1.8 db increase) would up the total power requirements from the amp to something like 7 or even 8 times. Or....I could be wrong Domain <- "Finding innumerable ways to confuse himself every day"

bscross, I could be wrong, might be wrong, and most probably am wrong The KSW's apparently sum the Left & Right inputs, which when hooked up via a Y-adapter, which yeilds something like a 6db increase in output (~2 times the original output). Following that logic, I would assume that adding the LFE input to the previously combined left and right inputs would yeild another increase of approximately 3.6db (~45% increase in volume), but maybe more like 1.8db...that is probably a question better answered by BobG. Now, this is all personal taste, but I would probably use the unfiltered LFE input only. This way your avoiding "cascading" crossovers, letting your reciever do all the "bass management" or filtering. Of course, you're losing the db increase by summing the inputs, but you should be able to match that by increasing the KSW's level. I know I wish I had this option on my KSW-12 In the end though, just do whatever makes it sound the best to you... Domain <- "Suffering from the highly contagious and uncurable disease known as Acousticus Tweakitus" Fixed Smiley/Can't Spell/Bad Grammer This message has been edited by Domain on 05-11-2001 at 04:07 PM

Ray, Nope, never tried punching a hole through a tuna And yes, for the most part Fedex does a decent job of delivering on time and in one peice. Considering the volume of packages they deal with, the horror stories make up a very small percentage. However, with a little more "care" of how the handle packages the rate for "horror stories" would decrease sharply. I can't recall how many times i've watched one of their drivers beat, bang, mangle, and otherwise destroy delicated equipment/items. Of course their drivers are from my understanding are alloted a certain amount of time to deliver to their route, and pay is based upon meeting that time. Maybe thats the inherant problem?.... Even more horrifying is spending some time at a distribution center for a large retail chain (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc). One particular day, I watched a group of workers trying to "stuff" a pricey RPTV into a truck. First pushing, then kicking, then finally taking running starts to jam it into place (not to mention the 100+ other incidents all witnessed that day). After seeing that, I truly wonder how anything makes it to the destination in one peice Make me wonder what perils my equipment might have been through before I purchased them Domain

Ah the joys of UPS / Fedex. I'm still waiting for them to merge into a company called FedUP (seems to be the concenus of most of their customers). I have had my fair share of problems with them in the past 6 months. Fedex left a new 17" FD Monitor on my porch in the middle of a thunderstorm (needless to say it didn't work so well). They also decided that a DVD player is best placed behind the back wheels of my car (luckily I didn't run over it). UPS isn't any better...they delivered a package with some imported CD's to me, that look like it went through a meat grinder. I refuse to use them at all anymore, unless I have no other options. http://www.hardocp.com] And I don't even want to get started on the USPS Domain

Belial, Depending on your browser, the process will vary. Generally just right-click on the link, click on "Save Target As...", and save them locally for easier viewing Since they are in PDF (and if you have Acrobat installed), it will try to load them directly in the browser window (not recommended for non-broadband connections). Domain

Fredorama, They are located under Home Audio -> Manuals. Domain

Razorback, Just some general things I've picked up thus far (I'm somewhat new to this also, still trying to get it "right"): As far as the the "size" you specify for your speakers, seems to be a personal preference (and what they are capable of producing). I am running all my speakers as "small" (connected via Sub Out), since none of my speakers are capable of producing low frequencies. (I have a Denon reciever, and they recommend the "small" setting unless the speakers are capable of being flat to 20hz). The sub settings itself are also a personal preference. If the Onkyo is handling the bass management, you might set the filter on the Sub to 120hz (so the filters don't "stack"), but ultimately just adjust it to what sounds best to you. Room placement is very important also, you may have to spend some time moving the sub around the room, until you find the "optimal" placement. The Phase switch can also play a part here. Good luck, Domain ----- SF-1 SC-1 SS-1 KSW-12 Denon AVR-2801

Bloomis, Thanks for sharing your setup information, its always interesting to see how others are doing things. Not to bother you with questions, but I'm not familiar with how the Marantz handles bass management, so would you mind if I ask a few questions? You said the LFE out (front) doesn't send signal in 2 channel mode... but in all other DSP modes it sends a "normal" sub out signal (everything including LFE)? If I run speaker level, I don't think I could get around using the KSW-12 as the high pass filter for the mains (The SF-1's aren't quite as potent as those Legends of yours ). If your reciever is sending a full signal when not in 2 channel via the LFE, then I would assume it would be the same as running Sub On (LFE + Main's) on my Denon... Do you notice a increase in Bass Output in other DSP modes vs 2 channel (assuming the LFE is putting out a "full" signal in all the other modes)? (Just curious about the "summing" of inputs that was talked about earlier). Thanks, Domain

Boris, The Sub level is going to be largely based on your own personal preferences, and "what" you are trying to set the level for... When you say your speakers are set to 85db, is this the level from the Denon test tone? Avia? Video Essentials? Depending on the source, the level is going to vary. I started out trying to do the sub level solely based off what the SPL meter was telling me, but ended up tossing that ideal aside and just setting it to the level my ears felt was best (with a few minor tweaks after that). Domain

t-man, Errr, reading back in my last post, I didn't make the last part very clear. When I said Mains to Large, Sub On (LFE ONLY) and just connecting the LFE Input, I meant doing that while it was running at speaker level. Sorry for the confusion. Domain

spanozzo, It seems the KSW's are very difficult to get "right". I've been battling with mine for about two weeks now, and finally found results i'm comfortable with (though I'm sure i'll do more tweaking ). Bloomis pretty much covers everything in a nutshell as to how to hook it up...the only other thing to keep in mind is that this Sub seems VERY dependant on positioning. You may have to move it around the room a few times to find the optimal position (I spent hours doing this). One thing about the KSW though is that its not a "booming" sub. When I first purchased my KSW-10 (and then upgraded to KSW-12), I was expecting the "thud" type of sound, but that was not the case. Its a very clean sound, and blends very well, not calling attention to itself. Good luck, Domain

bacevedo, I spent more then a few hours last night adjusting the speaker levels, and ended up trying to get a average of 0db (mains are a little lower, surrounds a little higher). The results are very positive... its interesting on the Denon's level control, as the level decreases, it seems to have more impact on the higher frequencies then anything else, giving them a "suppressed" or "muddy" sound. Then, I left the Sub level at 0db, not bothering to measure it. Instead I decided to put in my favorite CD, cranked the bass up too loud, then adjusted downward from there. After a few hours of playing with it, I finally found the right level so that it "blended" with the mains. (Its funny, I used to like big boomy bass, but after this new system, I tend to prefer a bass that doesn't call attention to itself) Once those adjustments were made, I decided to try measuring it with the Denon's test tone... it was marginally higher then it should be, so I left it alone. Then I dropped in U-571, and the bass wasn't too overpowering, though it was probably a little higher then the "correct" level. I might spend some time with the LFE level on the Denon to correct this when I find the time. t-man, I've read your previous posts regarding your experiences with the Denon / KSW, and i'm defintately going to experiment with the Speaker Level vs Sub Out (though probably not until I finish moving). Now, its my understanding that if you set the Mains to Large, Sub to Off, then all bass information, including LFE will be sent to the mains? What about setting Mains to Large, Sub On (LFE ONLY) and just connecting the LFE Input? Well anyhow back to work, Domain

Boa, I might try that as soon as I get moved (oh boy, new room, new acoustics, another 12 hours of playing musical speakers ). I'm curious though, if your running both Line/Speaker level, then your sending a unfiltered signal to the KSW-12 from the speaker level, and a filtered signal from the Sub Out. Now, you said the input signals are not "summed", and while your sending the same single to both inputs, the filters aren't going to matched...(I may be going over my own head with this next one)...since the filters aren't at the same frequency, wouldn't they slope differently?...and how would the sub reproduce this? <scratches head> Maybe i'm reading too much lately... the confusion is setting in... Domain I can't spell

bacevedo, Its a interesting situation. I don't have problem with leaving the sub at "on" all the time, but when its on auto, it only turns on when I recieves a signal (or perhaps when it recieves a powerful enough signal?) So until the reciever is reaching a certain volume level, appartenly it is not producing a signal, or a powerful enough signal to even activate the subwoofer. So when this is occuring, the sub is just sitting the corner looking pretty, but not doing anything (wheter its set to on or auto). I'm not sure the Sub Out is on the same "level" with the speaker outs if you know what I mean... but then again I could be wrong. Boa, I've heard about people running dual connections (speaker and line level) to the sub, but i'm not sure if this is safe? The sub's documentation says you can use one, or the other, but not both. Domain

bacevedo, The other speakers are in the Synergy (SF-1, SC-1, SS-1). I'm definately going to play around with the level adjustments as you mentioned, I expect I will have much better results. However, I see a problem as the rest of the speakers become more "sensitive" and less volume being required. Seeing that the sub barely activates as is until -20 or so on the Denon, it may not activate at all when those adjustments are made, since the volume level will be much lower... I'm just curious though, since i'm not very knowledgeable on this, would adding +dbs on the channel levels for the speakers be detrimental to the speakers as it is for the sub? Is this not the case because the sub has its own amplifier? Domain <--- Is a sponge for knowledge I've also played musical speakers all last weekend, and found basically where I feel they sound the best. It was a interesting experience though, I was listening after calibration...thinking....wow this sounds good. Then I looked over, and the sub was "asleep". Bah... Oh well, gives me something to do, even if I end up pulling all my hair out Domain Boa, The KSW-12 unfortunately doesn't have Line outs, just speaker level outs...

Boa, Sorry, I see what your talking about now. I feel stupid Domain

bacevedo, The way you callibrated your system is very interesting, and very helpful information. When I adjusted the levels on my system, I had to adjust many of the levels WAY down (-7 db on the mains, -3 on the center, 0db on the surrounds). Last night I spent about 3 hours playing around with the system (mainly on the bass), but I did notice that especially on the mains, as the Denon's channel level decreases, the horns become extremely "muddy/washed out". I found it very apparent when I switch from Direct or Stereo, to 5 Channel Stereo, the mains had a completely different sound from the center (the center was very clear vs the muddy/washed out mains). As far as the Denon's Sub level, I leave mine set at 0db, though as I said I upped it to +8, with no audible difference, so it seems to be useless anyway. I find the Denon's bass management strange to say the least...and horribly confusing. The overlapping filters probably don't help the situation either... I've read that people get drastic results from going the Speaker Level route, and I'm thinking I might get a better "blend" by utilizing the sub's high pass filter anyway. Of course, I am most definately, probably wrong Boa, Errr....I might be confused here, so forgive me. I'm pretty sure the Sub Out, is part of the Pre-Out section, though if the Sub is turned Off, it turns off the Sub Out...(this may be different for his 3801 as I have a 2801). 2801 Specs: http://elec.denon.co.jp/europe/pdf/AVR2801.pdf 3801 Specs: http://elec.denon.co.jp/europe/pdf/AVR3801.pdf Domain

Ray, Thanks for the great link Phil, The links are all different (at least they were for me), but I did notice that there are 2 links for each one (except the first). If you click on the very first section, you get a different link then if you click on the "Quicktime movie 5mb" section. (The Quicktime movie section on every link points to the same file). Domain