decibel man

There is that "audio bliss" I mentioned earlier. It seems as if the Canadains have got the Klipsch together. BobG, I will continue to promote Klipsch to all of my friends, as I am often a personal shopper when someone wants to buy some HT equipment. Although, it looks like I may have to drive them out of state to do so. Just for the record, when I ask my friends who have purchased non-Klipsch systems (only because of the dealer situation) how there system is sounding, they say; "not as good as yours, but ..." Happy listening! JT

Quote: With such a wide coverage, this casts some doubt on the Klipsch claim that this is a wide dispersion speaker, at least if assessed by the standard of dipole speakers, such as the ones supplied with the Jamo system. Can you say "oxymoron"!!!

BobG, that is a very welcomed and intelligent post. I agree with your view of the audio world and your opinion on demand. I believe Klipsch would be a pretty easy product to sell though. I have two friends in the last year that have moved up from a Pioneer rack system and a bookshelf stereo system to the entry level hi-end audio sector. Do to the lack of Klipsch dealers and customer service in this area one of them bought a Paradigm system and the other a B&W system. Both sound great, but they aren't Klipsch, if you know what I mean. They took the plunge after a few movies on my Ref system. Both of these guys wanted to buy from a local dealer that would continue to give them good service, so Klipsch was not the answer and that sucks! I even contemplated selling my system to the later and wating for the new Ref line, but I then came to my senses after writing another mortgage check. I will be ready in about another 12 to 18 months, but what are my options going to be? I don't think you should support a dealer because they are the only one, I think you should support a dealer because they are the right one. BobG, I don't want to sound negative, I just am a little frustrated. I know there are a lot of markets in the US that have this same problem. Likewise I am sure there are those markets where "audio bliss" occurs, the right product, the right service and the right price. The median income in this area has been increasing for some time, and the good audio shops are as busy as they have been for years, but no Klipsch. Help us help Klipsch! JT

Thank you HornEd for the compliment. Just for the record, Strongsville is in the Cleveland area and the above mentioned store is not in Cleveland. It is about an hour southeast of Cleveland. I really think that the AudioCraft chain in Cleveland / Akron is the best opportunity for Klipsch. The one current dealer in the Cleveland area was not so nice to me when I bought my Klipsch system a couple of years ago. This dealer is still on the far northeast side of the suburbs and I live on the southwest side, so it is about a 45 minute drive. Since I was spending $2,000 plus and was treated like dog meat, I thought we would try the next closest dealer, because my friend only had $1000 to $1500 to spend. And just like the other dealer they wanted to sell us a Paradigm system. It was not the salesman's fault, he had no inventory of Klipsch. AudioCraft used to carry Klipsch a long time ago, but not now. The sales people by far are not the most intelligent, but they are curtious and willing to help the consumer make choices. They did not seem to push any particular brand of product either. The problem is they don't deal much and their trade in is only on the front pair of speakers (not to mention they also carry Blose). The do have a nice selection of brands like: Adcom, McIntosh, Paradigm, Phase Tech, Def Tech, Pioneer Elite TV's, Yammy, Dennon and others. They also have four stores. Another question is: If there are more than a half-dozen Paradigm stores really promoting the Paradigm lines in this area, than why does Klipsch only have two single locations? Klipsch has the better product at each price level, so I know product quality is not the issue. Def Tech is another manufacturer with good dealer support. JT

I apologize for my absence from this topic. I left Sunday for a three day golf outing in Western Michigan. Nothing like 50 degrees and and three inches of rain to make a golf outing fun. I just got back last night and checked my email (45 in total). This BB is on my top five list of responses and the only non-work related one that will happen today. I want to start off with the standard cliche`of saying that I am a loyal Klipscher. I think that the Klipsh Ref line is one of the best values available in the entire audio market today (electronics included). I did not know that this post was going to create quite this much discussion, but I am glad that it has. This board is a great median for both the manufacturer and the consumer to be heard. I greatly appreciate the response from the factory and field members of the Klipsch organization. I also appreciate all of the responses of my fellow BB members. The experience I had was not a catastrophic debacle of customer service, it was just a very disappointing experience. It is my opinion (and obviously other BB members as well) that if the dealer is the only one in the area, they should try and represent atleast a couple of different products from each line. I would think that they would want to, since their competition would not have the same products. As I had mentioned earlier in this strand their Klipsch inventory was complete crap. The KLF-20's and 30's were not hooked to the same amp so you could not A/B them without major movement and niether of them was in a HT setup. There were NO Klipsch surrounds in the store. The only pair of Ref speakers were a pair of RF-3's and one had a dented driver (it really looked nice). They did however have several models of the various Paradighm, Def Tech, and Kef Reference speakers in various setups. I asked if they were clearing inventory for the new Ref models and was told "no." Then I asked when they would be getting the new line in and the answer was "eventually". And "no" was the answer to the question asking if they had even ordered the new line. I realize now that this was my fault. I should have called the store first to find out if they were really a Klipsch dealer or if they just played one on the Klipsch website. It is almost as if some of these dealers are half-@*$ed mail order stores. You drive the hour away and order speakers that they don't have so you cannot listen to them first and then you drive back again in a few months when they finally get around to getting your speakers in. Reminds me of a J C Penny catalog store. I love my Klipsch, but no thanks if this is the hell I have to go through. Luckily for myself I travel so I can go to a city with a real dealer and just have a frieght carrier that we work with pick it up for me to deliver the product to my house. It is an out of state sale (no tax) and it is not mail order if I am at the store to purchase the equipment. I guess my charge to Klipsch is; If you are having a problem with adding more dealers in secondary markets like mine then atleast let us know what products the current dealers carry. I know Klipsch can do that because you have the sales reports that show what products the dealers have bought. If the reps are actually calling on the stores then they should also know what products are on display. Just my two cents, JT

I don't have all of the answers (actually I am not sure that I have one answer), but it seems as if Klipsch has somehow upset audio dealers around the country. I have been in sales from the manufacture side for about 10 years and I have always had some dealing with retail stores. It has been my experience that the floor sales person becomes brainwashed as to the direction the store wants to go. My point is that if the store isn't excited about a product it will probably be obvious from the way the sales person represents it to the customer. You always have some VP of Sales telling us to go out and get the store sales staff excited about selling product "X", but if the store owner and management are not on board you can bet the rest of staff is not going to be either. The best way to get a store owner on board is to make good business policies. This usually starts with a firm handshake and a good look in eye so they know you are serious about making them money with an excellant product. Thank God for industrial customers lucky for me the items for retail that we produce now are only about 10% of my sales. The question is: what did Klipsch do to upset these dealers? And what is Klipsch doing to make ammends? When a store has a better collection of Martin Logan and Hales than Klipsch in a middle income nieghborhood there is a big problem. Still frustrated, JT

I think the major problem in this area is the lack of multi-store hi-fi shops. There is only one high-end store with three locations and that is it. At one time some years ago they used to carry Klipsch, but not now. It seems as if even their staff has been greatly downgraded as far as quality is concerned. We listened to some Paradigm and Phase Technology speakers. The Phase Tech's were the Theatro (sp?) and boy did my ears hurt. A lot of people think the Klipsch are bright and slightly harsh, but in the dictionary under harsh there is a picture of the Phase Tech speaker system. The clowns from this shop even setup a both with Bose at the Home and Garden show ever year. My friend could not understand why I wasn't correcting the salesman everytime he would give out horribly wrong information. I told him it does not make a difference if the store doesn't care anymore to train these sales personel more carefully. It was a joke, he would explain the the "... speaker was crossed at 40Hz, so it had great bass." That statement is wrong on many levels. How do you explain to a salesman that he is totally wrong when you know that you probably won't be buying from him anyway. It would just be cruelty. Not to mention, everything he was selling was at MSRP, but he did offer to throw in a 10% discount on just a sub if we bought a five speaker system. It is so frustrating to deal with these local shops. I hope most of you are having better luck than the rest of us in this audio hell. I just got my LF-10 amp back yesterday and now the sub will randomly start a very very loud hum all on its own. It might be a cable problem so I will test it out this weekend. At least the customer service and technical staff at Klipsch has remained excellant unlike their retail representation. Happy listening! (that is if you can find some equipment to buy) JT

The HK510 has Logic7 cinema and music. The Logic7 surround was created by Lexicon (also owned by Harmon International) and it is very similar to the ProLogic II. I have the HK7000 and use the Logic7 cinema all the time for VHS and regular TV listening. The HK's have massive toroidial(sp?) transfers that wiegh a ton. The HK510 also has a 192/24 DAC for some really nice sound. 45 amps of current, need I say more. You can't go wrong with the list that you have though. Good luck and happy listening! JT

I ment to post this earlier in the week, but my time and patience were still pretty thin. It started a few weeks ago when one of my old friends asked me if I would help him put together a new economy HT system. I asked him the usual questions and gave him some reading material to help him understand the basics. I explained to him that the biggest mistake for first time HT goers is that they do not spend enough money up front. Then in a few months they realize they are stuck with a system that they have already outgrown. Make a long story short we came up with a number between $1000 to $2000 to spend on a receiver and speakers. His roomate has the TV and DVD player. He asked why I love my Klipsch speakers and what makes them different from other speakers. After about two hours of serman like audio talk, I told we would go listen to as many different system as possible to see what he liked. I came across a special from J and R on the Yammy HTR5250 (same specs as the 596) for $299. I told him to go for it after we went to the dreaded Best Buy to look at the features. It is a nice piece for $299. This brings me to the speaker purchase. Last weekend we drove all over the Cleveland / Akron / Canton area looking and listening. He wanted to hear what other types of speakers Klipsch had to offer so we first went to a Kliipch dealer. This dealer's inventory consisted of KLF-30's, KLF-20's, a KLF C-7, (all KLF's were on clearance) RF-3's, a RC-3, and the 10 and 12 subs. They did not even have a pair of surrounds or one bookshelf speaker. They also carried Paradigm, Definitive, and KEF reference. Since they had no Klipsch bookshelf models, and that was what he was leaning toward for future space flexibility, we did not even listen to the Klipsch line. I was embarrassed to be a Klipscher. I even asked when they would be getting in the new ref speakers, for myself. The answer was "eventually", so I asked if they were on order and that answer was "no." We drove over an hour to go to this store. The sad part is that the local super hi-end store that is a whole 5 minutes from my house also owns the mentioned Klipsch dealer that was an hour away. They did not have one positive thing to say about Klipsch marketing or management, but did not knock the product quality. After two days of listening we ended up back at this local store with a nice B&W DCM303 system. It is a great sounding system for a mere $1150 including a $450 PSB sub and 75 feet of Tara Labs 12 guage wire. Of coarse my friend happened to have a cook out Sunday night when I was setting the system up for him. That way all of my friends could be there to ask why I did not steer him into a set of Klipsch speakers. I heard the phrase muddered "...because nobody wants to carry them anymore." This has been a very disappointing and humbling experience for me. There are almost a dozen Hi-Fi stores within an hour drive that carry at least one model of speakers that cost more than KHorns, so there is no excuse as to the lack of support from dealers. In school the professors always said that marketing is part of the total product, so what does that say about my beloved Klipsch? What is being done in markets that are not as large as NYC, Las Angelos, Las Vegas, and Chicago to immprove Klipsch representation? I don't mean to be negative, this is my first real negative post in 100+ posts. I am just concerned and embarrassed. JT

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but don't the current SACD players just have bass management for stereo SACD playback. It is all a real mess. The problem with SACD is that Sony is pioneering both the hardware and the software. The issue here becomes the age old copyright paranoia and therefore the lack of digital connection. Typically the hardware manufacture would want to provide the best equipment, which in today's technology should include digital connections. But the record labels are so paranoid that there will be copyright infringment they pressure the hardware manufacters into not providing digital outputs. If SACD wins this battle, we are less likely to see the digital connection capabilities any time in the near future. This will mean that the players will have to have pre-amp like options (channel adjustment, bass management and whatever else the player will have to do). So if you buy a Lexicon pre-amp/processor with 192/24, you will have to let your Sony player do all of the tweaking. Kind of defeats the purpose? I just wish everybody would decide on one format so we could all just get along! I believe Toshiba has a DVD-A player with progressive scan coming out this summer at $400, this could get interesting. Happy listening! JT

Refridgerator? Well you are going to have measure out the cubic foot requirements for your desired chilling position. Be sure there are no warm air drafts as those would raise the cold air resistance causing the compresser over time to work a little harder. Another important consideration when buying a premium food chiller, is what type ingredients are you actually going to be storing? If you prefer frozen beef, then it is important that the compressor either not run often or the air flow stay away from the food. This will help to prevent a fridgophile's worst nightmare, freezer burn! If you're into the prepared pre-boxed meals, these factors will not be as important. A nice power conditioner may also help to keep the compressor at lower temp, creating a better chill factor. Then there is that on going debate as to whether or not you should use the factory supplied power cable. Many things to consider. I think you see my point. Just divert you energy. JT

Pardon my lack of detail. I re-read that post and confused myself. I was talking about a set-top cable box. The strange part is that it is in a dbs receiver size box, and not the usual narrow small cable box. My cable company is having all of its customers switch to digital cable on or after June 19. They are now offering one free month of cable and internet service. I don't know what to do, I don't think I can handle a stable and fast ISP. Not to mention, digital sound for my HT system? I think I may just have to get the bunny ears back out, and maybe even bust out an eight track player. This technology stuff is just too much for me. Pre-historically analog, JT

And I almost forgot about the subwoofer question. As part of the processing in the receiver there is a subwoofer channel created in the HK, but I am not sure about the Denon. I would have to think that it would have a sub channel in surround stereo though. Again good luck and feel free to ask any questions, these Klipsch fanatics have a wealth of knowledge and they love to share it. JT

Som, I don't know that it would be true to say that the 192/24 DAC is worthless as compared to a 96/24 DAC if you aren't using it for DVD-A or SACD. It may be a case were the information is getting upsampled at a faster rate. For instance, the 5 channel stereo mode on the HK is called Logic7 Music (or at least it is with the rest of the line, 310, 510 and 7000 models). The reciever either takes the music from the sorce in analog or digital format(coax or optical), then if it is in analog form it coverts it to digital to then process it for multichannel playback. Then it converts the seperate digital channels to analog and sends it to the amplifier portion of the receiver. This is where a faster DAC will do a better job of processing the information. If you use a CD player with a digital output, the 192/24 DAC will be a nice compliment. Also I think the HK110 has HDCD like the rest of the line, but I am not sure. Just my two cents. I hope this wasn't too confusing. Another option if price is a concern is the Yamaha HTR5250. The 5250 is being replaced by the 5450 at a lower price point. The 5250 MSRP is around $599 and the 5450 is $399 to $499. www.jandr.com has the 5250 for a mere $299 right now while supplies last. I have a friend who is starting out with his first home theater and I recomended he start with the 5250 because of the price. It is a pretty respectable receiver. He ordered his last week on Monday and received it on Wednesday without a scratch. They do a good job on packaging components for shipping. I have spent a few thousand dollars with them over the years and have been quite pleased with customer service. My suggestion would be to call them and not to just order from the website. Any of these three are a good choice. Good luck and happy listening! JT

That KLF-10 center is sweet. Are you getting the bass out of it like your C-7? You know I never thought of the textured paint idea. That would have been perfect for what I was doing.

JPK, I have the AVR7000 which has the 96kHz DAC. I love it. This is my second HK receiver. The first one is used in my garage / workshop and is 14 to 16 years old. I also have a Denon AVR2500 in my spare room. The Denon is also a great receiver. I like the high current capability of the HK, and the Logic7 surround modes. Logic7 was developed by Harmon's Lexicon division and is great for just watching TV or casual music listening. I don't think you can make a bad choice between the two receivers you are looking at. Good luck and enjoy! JT

I am also about to make the jump into digital cable and internet access. Adelphia ia the provider here, but my parents are about 20 minutes south of me and have Time Warner Cable. They have a Pioneer digital receiver with an optical digital out and the front of the receiver says "Dolby Digital 5.1". Now of coarse my parents do not even have a stereo, so they have now idea what they have. They just like all of the menu options and the pay-per-view selection. I don't like being jealous of my parents equipment, it is just not right! JT

4977, you can't put enough coats of primer on that MDF. My speakers are the same size as the RB-5's and they still took about 5 cans of sandable primer. I painted mine white, so they really had to be coated. The other problem that is created by not using enough primer is the MDF soaks up the paint. If you use any sort of gloss paint it will look dull in spots where the wood is still soaking the paint in. I remember the very moment I finally hooked the pair up and heard the creation I had been laboring over. It was a grand accomplishment. I know that some guys build speakers as a hobby, but this was my first attempt and first finished pair. I don't see a second pair in my near future, but I do not regret that project. I am glad that your project is going well. Good luck and happy listening, JT

Tman, there is a thread with links to pictures from an Arkansas trip that some of the BB regulars took this summer. There were a couple of pictures of the Jubilee's in that group of pictures. I can't remember who posted the pictures, but DougDrake would know. I think they listened to them for a while at the factory. They looked like a KHorn on steriods with European eligance. Actually they didn't, they were just beautiful. It looked like a mohoganny finish from the picture. Good luck and happy listening! JT

Boa, that is way too funny. It has been the week from hell. My employer found out for sure that we are not going to purchase our major competitor (large houshold name with a 58% share of the market in most of our product sectors). Seeing as how we only have four people in sales and they have over 150 that would have been a major promotion. The company that owns our competitor is doing poorly with its other divisions and now does not want to sell this division because of its success. My sister finalized her divorce today, that means I am now doing husband duties for two households (refinanced her house, selling her Explorer, helping with the two nephews, and the list goes on). What was supposed to be a weekend of baby sitting the in-laws' dog has now turned into three weeks with no end in sight. My weed trimmer broke Tuesday, one month after the one year warranty expired. And last night when I needed some rest I noticed my LF-10 was dead. If my back was not sore from my parents recent move, it would have probably exited out the window! Of coarse the people at Klipsch were very nice and helpful when I called them this morning. The CSR suggested that I ship just the amp to save on shipping. That is what I am doing. I hope that this is the problem. I can't hook up the amp to the driver with out pulling the driver to see if it works. They needed to put wires that are about three inches longer inside. This just sucks. I am going to the Indians game tonight in a luxury suite, Murphy's Law is forecasting thunderstorms. I just don't care as long as the beer is cold, I'll watch the infield tarp get wet for three hours. Good luck with your Velo and happy listening! JT

Thanks guys for the information. That link was a very informative review. I am helping a friend put together a system and we are looking at low cost options. The 1050 seems like a very good deal at $600. Happy listening! JT

So I should have known better. I need to think before I talk (and / or post). I was just telling someone on the BB last week how pleased I have been with my LF-10 and how it was doing rather well. That of coarse put Murphy's Law into motion. As I was listening to a couple of CD's yesterday I noticed that the sub seemed to be quite. So I looked behind the TV (the TV is about 3' from the corner of the room, leaving me plenty of room to corner load the LF-10) and the green light was illuminated on the front of the sub. I then pulled my speaker away and noticed that there was no sound coming from the sub. I tinkered with the connections and the receiver for a while and even tried my sub from the spare system. The other sub worked. Needless to say, I will be calling the good people of Klipsch today to get a RMA number. I will miss the little girl while she is in the subwoofer ward at the Klipsch Clinic. I was wondering if anybody else has had a LF-10 die on them after it had been working for quite a while? A proud father of a sick little subwoofer, JT It is times like these that we should thank our lucky stars that we have a great customer service department at Klipsch.

Blue, I might be selling my black pair of RS-3's so I can get a white pair. Email me if you are interested. JT All reference, all the time!

Has anybody checked out the Outlaw unit that is $600? That looks like an interesting unit, but I have yet to talk to someone that has one. DTS-ES for $600 seems like a good deal. If any of you have one or have heard one, let us know what you think. JT

4977, you had asked about primer earlier. I used several coats of sandable primer and sanded each one to make it ultra smooth. You may be able to buy Black Ash vinyl veneer from www.partsexpress.com or some other speaker building supply store. The veneer would have a little wood grain to it. I painted mine white to match the walls in my garage/wookshop. It is also an easy color to hide any small mistakes. I am glad everything is turning out okay for you. Craig, I am sorry to hear you missed that KLF-10. You may get lucky with ebay or another dealer (with clumsy warehouse guys). Good luck and happy listening! JT