J M O N

HornEd, I can understand your frustration. I haven't personally had that experience, but I have seen similar things happen to other customers. I didn't even know those customers and it still ticked me off. You have probably already seen the post "Frustrated Klipscher..." in the Home Theater forum. If you do have to buy out-of-state, I would highly recommend Sound Ideas in Albuquerque. They are probably one of the best Klipsch dealers around. In fact, PWK seemed to be a relatively frequent visitor to their store back in his younger days. They are true audiophiles there, and once had on display a Klipshorn-based home theater room(4 Khorns, 1 Belle). CONTACT: Loren Bishop Sound Ideas 1624 Eubank NE Albuquerque, NM 87112 (505) 292-1188 www.soundideasnm.com (still under construction) Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Kerry, I may not have been clear in what I was trying to describe. I was not trying to say that 2 dB is the lowest volume a human ear can detect. I was saying that a DIFFERENCE of 2 dB is typically the smallest DIFFERENCE in volume levels that a typical human can detect. That is most people won't notice a difference in volume between say 90 dB and 91 dB. You are correct in that measurements of dB are not absolute values. Decibels only represent differences in level. It is much the same as degrees in temperature. Degrees in temperature are not absolute either. Seventy degrees farenheit only means something to us because a reference to the freezing point of water (and the boiling temperature of water) was made. Hope that is a little clearer.

Can you ever have too much power? That depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are concerned about damaging your speakers, then the answer should be no, "you can't have too much CLEAN power". You are more likely going to damage your speakers when driving them hard by not having enough clean power, than you would with having too much. If you don't have enough power, your amp will clip and could damage your speakers. You can damage your speaker by running too much power into them, but that damage will happen at a higher level than if you don't have enough power. If you are concerned about sound quality at the volume level you will be listenting to, then as others have mentioned, some amps may sound better at certain power outputs. If there is a difference in sound quality at different power levels, huge amps are generally going to sound better at higher power levels (they're big because they are meant to be used with speakers that NEED that much power and are designed to sound better at those higher power levels). With Klipsch speakers being so efficient, you are not going to be using much power even at very loud levels. So an amp that is designed to sound better at lower power levels could be a better choice. Of course, you still want to make sure your amp has enough power to handle the transients in the music. The smallest audible difference in volume level a human ear can supposedly detect is 2 dB. Of course that is a very small difference, barely noticable. In order to increase the output of your sound by 3 dB, you have to increase the power by twice the amount. It is not a linear relationship. That is why a 100 watt amp is not much different than a 200 watt amp in terms of volume -- you only get 3 dB difference in volume level. It doesn't matter if you're at .01 watts or at 100 watts, to increase the volume by 3 dB, you have to double the power. I believe that most preamps will have a logarithmic volume control -- that is, the more you turn the knob, the faster the power output increases. This is so that the relative volume level increases in a relatively linear fashion. For example, at 8:00, you might have .01 watts. At 9:00, you might have .1 watts, at 10:00, you might have 1 watt, and at 11:00 you might have 10 watts (this is just an example of course). If the volume control was linear, then at the very beginning, a slight adjustment will increase the volume substantially, wheras as you turn the knob further and further, you would hear less and less change to the volume. This is because of the "twice the power = 3 dB increase in volume" rule. Now, what position you have the volume knob at with respect to the power output is going to vary from preamp/receiver to preamp/receiver. This is a result of preamps/receivers having different gain settings. Use a different preamp, and you might have a different volume level at the same volume control position with the very same power amp. With that in mind, it's tough to say what the maximum volume level you can adjust your preamp should be. This is also going to depend on if you are using an equalizer or tone controls with the levels boosted (those are essentially like volume controls, but only controlling certain frequencies). In my own use, I am careful to never go past the 1:00 position on my preamp. I do not use an equalizer or tone controls. This is just a rule of thumb that I use that means different things to different preamps, but so far I have not damaged a single speaker. With Klipsch speakers, 1:00 is very, very loud, so I very rarely push my speakers that hard.

Here is my recommendation. For Cornwall II's, another Cornwall II would be the best center. If that is too big (most likely it is), then a Heresy II would be the next best choice. An Academy would follow as the third best choice with a KLF-C7 as the fourth best option.

http://www.klipsch.com

AVMAN, As someone who has been looking at building a new house and have seen many model homes, you might want to ask some of your local builders. Many of the homes are being built with media rooms, and many times the model homes have very fancy theater-style media rooms right down to the type of carpet you are talking about. If your local carpet center can't help you, try looking into some of the builders.

My Belle has cane grill cloth, and I need to get black as well. Let me know what you find out about the grill cloth James.

Blown woofers on MCM-1900's? I'd guess you probably need to get your eardrums replaced as well!

Q-Man, Be careful. If you keep this up, next year's field trip to Klipschland will not be travelling to Hope, Arkansas. It will be going to Merritt Island, Florida!

Chacal, You have a projector and will be placing the speaker behind the screen -- are you sure you don't have enough room for a large center channel? If not a La Scala or Belle, a Cornwall would also be an excellent choice. If you just don't have the room, then the Heresy would be the next best choice as the others mentioned. It sounds like you're going to have a great system -- Khorns, Projector, it sure would be nice if you can get one of the larger speakers for a center.

DwK, I didn't mean to imply that B&W doesn't make good speakers. They make very good speakers and the Nautilus 801's and their others are definitely quality products. In my opinion, B&W is one of the better speaker manufacturers out there. However, what I was trying to say to you is that just because B&W is more expensive than Klipsch, doesn't mean they are better. There are probably things that B&W will do better and there are other areas where Klipsch will do better. It's all a matter of personal taste. One area where I think Klipsch wins easily is value. If you have a certain amount of money to spend, you will get more speaker by buying Klipsch than you will with B&W. This is just my opinion of course. B&W speakers are made in England and Klipsch are made in the U.S., so that is one reason why Klipsch is a better value. Going back to what I said about the Nautilus 801, I think they are wonderful speakers, but if I was going to spend $11000 on speakers, there are other speakers out there that I would choose first. Again, this is my preference.

HornEd, you know how rabbits are Sounds like you lived in Dallas before. What made you move? Not enough Klipsch Dealers?? DWK, There are two Hillcrest locations (that's the first sign that an audio store is trying to become more of a "supercenter", when they expand from one store). There is one on Preston and 635. The other one is on Parker and the Tollway (this one is much larger and has been around for a year or so). Most of their salesmen are knowledgable, but they do have some that are "new at this". When you expand and get more stores, you're likely to have fewer salesmen that are knowledgable (and passionate) about audio. My favorite Klipsch Dealer is Sound Ideas in Albuquerque. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but they used to have Klipschorns on display as recently as a couple of years ago. In fact, they probably had the most impressive home theater display I have seen -- Klipshorns in front, Belle center, Klipshorns in the rear (hanging upside down from the ceiling), subs under the floor, giant front projector. Unfortunately I never got to listen to this amazing system. It seemed that PWK visited Sound Ideas often. In fact, PWK was there the day my cousin picked up his Chorus II's. He got to share some Scotch with PWK and the owner, and also had PWK sign his woofers.

The C-7 should be a better choice for your Belles. Of course another Belle would be ideal, but they are huge. A Heresy might be the next best choice.

DWK, More expensive doesn't mean better. I saw from your previous post that you live in Dallas. Go check out Hillcrest on Parker and the Tollway. They carry the Nautilus 801 there and they also have the $40,000 Nautilus on display (It may not be a working model though). I have listened to the Nautilus 801, and at $11,000 I was not that impressed.

DWK, I know of only two stores in Dallas that carry Klipsch: Hillcrest High Fidelily and Tweeter (formerly Home Entertainment). Hillcrest has two locations and Tweeter has several, but both stores will have the same prices and carry the same models. Hillcrest is closer to the small "audio salon" that offer personalized service, but they seem to be trying to become more of a electronics "supercenter". My favorite audio stores in Dallas do not carry Klipsch. I have not been impressed with some of the salesmen at Hillcrest. A while back I overhead one tell an older couple that "He would not let them buy Klipsch" and wouldn't even let them listen to Klipsch. Another salesman didn't even know what a Klipschorn was. Some of the salesmen there are not audio enthusiasts, they are just salesmen.

Accidentally double posted... sorry. This message has been edited by JMON on 06-01-2001 at 04:06 PM

I think that cabinet bracing is a good thing, especially with such a large cabinet such as the Cornwall. However, remember that by adding internal bracing to a speaker, you are also changing the internal volume of the speaker. This changes the speaker. How much will this change the speaker? I don't know, but the more/larger braces you put in, the more you decrease the internal volume of the speaker. In bracing an existing speaker (i.e. not designing and building a speaker from scratch where you can compensate for the added bracing), it would be better to brace it from the outside of the cabinet (at least theoretically). The idea to add 60 lbs. of sand on top does just that, it "braces" the top of the speaker. However, you still need bracing for each of the other sides. One idea I suggested a while back, to test the benefit of bracing, is to get a large clamp(s) and clamp the sides of the cabinet (i.e., reduce the flexing of the cabinet walls). Just make sure the clamp(s) do not have any loose parts that will vibrate and make a racket. This is one method you can use to see if bracing will give you the benefit you were looking for, without actually making permanent modifications. It's also a method that will not change the internal volume of the speaker.

What speakers will you be using with the amp?

Last week I bought a pair of walnut oiled Klipschorns for exactly $500. I'd say those are the best speakers you can get for $500.

Thanks for the additional comments and suggestions guys. I am looking for something more along the lines of tube amps. I have tried some very highly regarded solid-state amps (Threshold, Classe, and Jeff Rowland). I have even had Harman/Kardon and Adcom SS amps in my system at one time or another. They all sounded excellent. The Threshold was great, had fantastic bass, but I preferred the Classe over it just slightly. The Classe seemed to be a bit smoother and natural sounding, although the bass wasn't quite as deep. The Rowland had a sound similar to the Classe, but just a little bit better overall. Then, I tried a tube amp (ARC VT-50), and it exceeded all the other amps I've used. This is the only tube amp I've tried, but it was enough to convince me that tubes sound better (at least to my ears, and at least with this particular tube amp). As it's been said many times, tubes and horns go well together. This experience has led me to want to get into SET's, as the word going 'round says they will produce "magic". I would love to hear how that sounds like. I don't have any complaints of the way my system sounds now, but if there is something better out there (price not being prohibitive of course), I would like to look into it. Boomer: you have a pretty nice looking setup. Those Khorns sure do look good. Max: I have never heard Accuphase, but do understand they are pretty good stuff.

MaxG, It sounds like your friend has Klipschorns from the Klipsch 50th anniversary year, but they are not the 50th Anniversary Edition Klipschorns. All the 50th Anniversary Klipschorns will look like the the photos shown, with the only differences being the three different wood types as mentioned. The 50th Anniversary Klipschorn is cosmetically different, everything else is the same. If he has "Genuine Klipsch" Klipschorns, then they should be the same size as all other Klipschorns. If not, then he could have a homemade Klipschorn copy.

From Old Klipsch Literature on the Cornwall: "...within the Klispsch line, only the Klipschorn offers a more extended bass response..." However, this is very old literature that may have come out before the Forte. Here are the frequency responses I have from old product literature sheets: Klipschorn: 35Hz-17kHz Cornwall II: 38Hz-20kHz La Scalla: 45Hz-17kHz Heresy II: 50Hz-20kHz KG4: 38Hz-20kHz I do not have any literature sheets on the Forte. However, I do have a "standard" Klipsch owners manual that went with each model and it does say in there that "The Klipsch Forte provides a smooth, well-extended response down to a solid 32Hz." Could the Chorus/Chorus II go even lower???

Stinger, Congratulations!! Today must've been a lucky day for people buying Klipsch. Today I was lucky enough to find a pair of Klipschorns in oiled walnut for $500. That's for the pair, not each. I still can't believe it. They are in very nice condition too. I just got them home. I wasn't in the market for Klipschorns, but I just couldn't pass it up. It was like they were giving them away. As far as your Cornwalls go, they are excellent speakers. You will notice a difference if you use a good quality amp. I have owned Cornwall I's and they definitely sounded better with quality amplification. The best they sounded was with a tube amp. Get good amplification, and you will be AMAZED at how good they will sound.

Since you have a solid state amp, consider leaving it powered on all the time. It is better for the amp and you will avoid the pops.

P.S. Just as reflected waves can cancel each other out, they can also can also add upon each other and yield as much as double the amplitude depending on what phase they are in when they reach each other (this depends on room dimensions, speaker positions, and location in the room where they meet). This could be the reason why in some spots you have too much bass, and in others you have nulls. It does sound to me like the problem is with your room, and not the speakers. Again, I'm not an expert in this area but I would suggest that you go out and do some research on this before buying anything. I believe someone posted a website where you can download an "Acoustics 101". You might want to do a search on this BB. Good luck.