J M O N

James, I didn't mean to imply that you had you speakers connected wrong. I only told that story to try and explain the cancellation effect. But as you say, it never hurts to double check. In fact, I couldn't believe that I would have connected those speakers backwards. I did double check, but didn't find my mistake right away. I later triple checked, this time much more closely and realized that I did indeed have them connected wrong. It turns out that it was hard to read polarity on the cheap (very thin) wire I used. The white line I saw on the black insulation jacket wasn't a white line afterall, it was the reflection of the light that looked just like the (smaller, less obvious) white line on the other wire. Boy did I feel dumb when I realized what happened.

James, Let's see if I can shed a little light on your problem with the nulls that you are experiencing by telling you a story of what happened to me once upon a time. Back when I was in college, I had put together a car stereo system that utilized a dual-woofer sub. It sounded pretty good and put out quite a bit of bass in a car environment. I then went out of the country for a year, and when I returned I reinstalled my sub. A year had gone by, but it sure didn't seem like I was getting as much or as good bass as I did before. I thought maybe it had to do with being gone so long, and remembering the system to be better than it actually was. One day while waiting for someone in my car, listening to music, I was goofing around with the stereo controls. I adjusted the balance and the sound from one side disappeared, but the bass actually increased and improved in quality. What the ??? How did that happen? After some tinkering, it turned out that I had connected one of the woofer connections backwards. So the two woofers were out of phase with each other. What happens in this situation is when one woofer moves out, the other moves in, and in essence, they are acting to cancel each other out. When you remove one woofer (as what happened when I adjusted the balance all the way to one side), you no longer have the cancelation effect happening, and have the bass from one woofer. Bass from one woofer is significantly greater than bass from two woofers that are out of phase. By eliminating one woofer, you essentially have "addition by subraction". I connected the sub correctly, and bam, the bass was there like it had been before!! The nulls that you are experiencing could be a result of bass waves canceling each other out in certain parts of your room. The bass traps that were mentioned would help increase your bass by eliminating secondary bass waves (typically these would be waves reflected off your walls) that would act in the cancelating the primary bass waves (those coming directly from the speaker) -- "addition by subtraction". This problem is going to be more a result of your room and the placement of your speakers (nothing you can do about that with Khorns), than it is with the speakers themselves. If you replaced your Khorns with other speakers, you may very well still have the same problem (although being able to move them around the room to an optimal location may give you some improvement). It is my understanding that this problem can be fixed using room treatments, but depending on the severity of the problem, it could be a tedius/expensive process. I am not an expert in this area by any means, so you may want to do some research on this subject or solicit input from some of the other folks on the BB. I don't claim to be 100% correct on what I said, so I welcome corrections by anyone here. There have been several suggestions for finding information on room acoustics from others on the board. Anyway, I hope I was able to provide a little bit of explanation of what could be happening.

Bev, I have recently gone through the same process you are going through. There are three things I did to my sound room that strayed from the standard construction plan. The first two ideas were given to me by a local hifi dealer that also had just built a house. Both our rooms were going to be on the second floor, and he suggested doubling up on the number of floor joists to give a more rigid floor. The other item he mentioned was to install double sheetrock on the walls. This was also supposed to provide more rigid walls. He said the results were good so I also incorporated those changes to my house. There was additional cost that you will have to check with your builder. Since I will be using Khorns, I wanted to make sure the corners of my room were also rigid. I wanted to add additional braces in each corner. As mentioned above, the builder called this "blocking", and I had the "blocking" peformed in each corner between each stud. There were about four of five blocks installed between each pair of studs, each "block" about 2 feet apart from each other. I had this done 4 feet out from each corner and from the floor all the way to the ceiling. My builder did not charge me for this.

CLS: The answer to your question is both -- you will also get less bass. Sound is energy, and if your walls are flexing, then some of that energy is being used to flex the walls and you have less energy to make sound.

Sunnysal, I posted a suggestion to your question in another topic (there is a used BAT preamp for $750 on Audio Review). Your desires are pretty tough. Since most tube preamps are "high-end", and most "High-end" preamps don't have tone controls, I think it's going to be tough to find everything you're looking for. Of course I'm not familiar with every model out there, but I think it will be tough to find a tube preamp with tone controls. I have been wrong before though. Also, it should not be hard to find a used Audio Research tube preamp in your price range (don't think they have tone controls though). My Audio Research LS-3 (SS) preamp does have two single-ended outputs, but they are not switchable.

James, Snap out of it!! Go get yourself some used Belles if you have to. A used pair will probably be cheaper than a new single one anyway. You can always go in with someone else that needs one too, there always seems to be someone here that is looking for just one. A single Belle is hard to find. I was lucky and found one available, but I had to drive a long way to get it.

Sunnysal, I saw someone selling a used BAT tube preamp for $750. Check the Audio Review classifieds.

Phil, Somebody was selling that magazine on E-bay (auction has ended). That is where I found the photo. Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1232008089

Here is a photo I found on the net:

Bloomis, I am building a house, and actually put double sheetrock on the walls. This was from a recommendation of a local audio store salesman who also recently built a house. This was not for the purpose of sound insulation, but to provide stiffer walls (keep them from vibrating). Since I have K-horns, I thought that this would be even more important. I don't know how much of a difference it will cause, but I'm hoping it will be worth the extra money.

John: Thanks for the photo!

JimG, Thanks for the info. Do you know how many were made? I wonder what those different wood types look like.

4977, Try your local audio store. That's where I got my Tiptoes over ten years ago. I think they were around $7 each.

Boa, No offense was taken. The topic is an interesting one to discuss (it's probably the main reason I love Klipsch/horn speakers), but since this post was of a different subject, I won't drag it on further.

Boa, Not to get off the subject again, but what I was trying to refer to when I talked about speed was dynamics. Acceleration (and deceleration) would have been a better word. How fast can a driver go from no sound to very high output (SPL) and then back to no sound. Horns do this better than direct radiators and of course live sound is even better. That's what I was trying to describe, not the frequency that a diaphram moves.

Does anybody know about these speakers? I'm interested in learning more about them. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!

The speakers on his show with the red ring around the woofers are Cerwin-Vega. It's funny, but I've several shows that have CV's as props. CV probably does that as a marketing ploy. You may have noticed that Martin Logan speakers can be found on the "Friends" set (I think at one time they also used CV).

When people say you need to have a sub that will "keep up" with Khorns or La Scalas, they are not talking about "keeping up" in output. It's in speed where they need to "keep up". Horn loaded speakers are very dynamic, and thus require a dynamic sub to mate well. This is tough to do in the bass region because so much air has to be moved and direct radiators have a hard time moving that much air, that fast. It has been mentioned on this BB that the best way to go using direct radiators is to use MANY small direct radiators. The small radiators will provide the "speed", and the high quantities of small radiators will provide the amount of air movement needed. Tom, I'm interested in the servo sub you mentioned. Where can these be found? Has anyone had any experience with the Edgarhorn sub?

4977: You have already built the bases, but in case you want to try something, you can get "Tiptoes" to put under the speaker without having to drill into them. Tiptoes (or spikes) should give you tighter bass than mounting the speakers on the bases.

Hello WS, Thanks for the interesting post. To respond to some of your questions, I actually have a similar situation to address. I want to incorporate my Khorns into a HT system. Two-channel audio will be my priority, with HT secondary. I also want to use an optimum amplifier for 2-channell audio, while still having the HT ability. For me, optimum 2-channel means using a separate 2-channel power amp and preamp. My thoughts so far are to have a dedicated two-channel amp/preamp for audio, and add on an AV receive for HT. I would get an AV receiver that has pre-out for the two front channels, and run those pre-out to a aux/video input on the preamp. This might not be the "best" scenario for HT, but again, my priority is 2-channel audio. I currently have a SS preamp with a tube poweramp and think it sound very good. However, I don't believe that is the optimal setup, and want to get a tube preamp sometime. I agree that Khorns, and Klipsch speakers in general, have a very high performance for the dollar. That is why Klipsch are my speakers of choice. They may not be the best speakers in the world (is there such a thing?), but it will likely cost a heck of a lot more money to get anything superior.

Spikes will actually be better than rebuilding the base. The best center match would probably be an Academy, but they are no longer made so you would have to find one used (they are rare). A used Academy will likely cost more than whay you paid for the Fortes. Your father got a bargain!

As has already been described, the Cornwalls will go deeper in the bass area. The La Scalas/Belles will not have as deep in the bass regions, but because they horn-loaded, the bass will be tighter and more dynamic. It has been a long, long time since I have had the chance to compare La Scalas to Cornwalls side-by-side. When I was able to compare them, I preferred the more dynamic sound of the La Scalas (with no subs). That is what appealed to my ears. Of course that was then, and my taste may have changed where today I might prefer the Cornwalls. Both speakers are excellent. I think that comparing the two will depend on your personal taste. Some people prefer the Cornwalls, and some people prefer La Scalas/Belles. A lot of people have complained of the aesthetics of La Scalas. I am probably in the minority, but I have always thought they looked very, very cool. They are unique in their looks (at least compared to other "home" audio speakers). I think they look wonderful if they are finished and even nicer if they have the front grill. I have owned Cornwalls and was extremely happy with them. I would suggest that if you're interested, let your own ears decide which ones you like better. It may not be easy, but see what you can do to listen to some Belles/La Scalas.

Classe Audio makes just the amp you are asking for. You will have to buy one used to get under $1000, but it shouldn't be hard to find one. I owned the Classe Seventy and it sounded wonderful with Cornwalls and Heresy's.

The tube amp vs. SS amp debate is still alive. I still believe the best way to decide is to let your ears be the judge, and forget about the results from test measurements. There is an interesting article in the May/June 2001 issue of Listener Magazine that discusses this very subject. The conclusion of the article is that for audio use, tubes SOUND better than transistors. Of course you still have to have speakers that work well with tubes.

As Ray mentioned, the Heritage line is only available by special order and they are built-to-order. It used to be that you could go into your local Klipsch dealer and walk out with Klipsch Heritage speakers that same day (assuming they had the model you wanted, in the type of wood and grill color you wanted). That was back when the Heritage line was all that Klipsch made (and it wasn't called the Heritage line, 'cause there was nothin' else). However, sales on this line of speakers has dropped significantly (mostly due to their size, and the fact that Klipsch and other companies began to offer smaller speakers of good quality). Because of their size and reduced sales, dealers no longer carry them in stock. So, if you want Heritage line, the dealer has to order them. Well, for the same reasons dealers don't keep them in stock, Klipsch doesn't keep them in stock either. So, if you want to buy one, the dealer has to order it from Klipsch, and then Klipsh has to go out and build it. This takes time because in order for Klipsch to build the product, they have to setup their manufacturing facility to build a particular heritage model. I would guess that they will wait to get a certain number of orders for a partucular model before they setup their manufacturing line to build a particular model. So that is why it can take so much time to get a Heritage speaker. Since the Heritage model can be ordered with a variety of wood-types and finishes, and different grill colors, this adds to the complexity of a dealer keeping them in stock. Because the Heritage line is not kept in stock, that also means it's hard to find any in showrooms. People who haven't heard Klipsch speakers (and there are lots of them), don't know what they sound like, so they won't buy something they can't audition, especially since they are expensive. This has contributed significantly to the drop in sales of the Heritage line. It's kind of a "Catch-22". I'd bet that both Klipsch and dealers would keep them in stock (the way things used to be) if the sales were high enough, but sales aren't going to go up unless people can listen to them in showrooms. There are a lot more people willing to spend money on high-end audio today than ever before (mostly because of the home-theater craze), and the Heritage line is missing out on this opportunity because they are not in showrooms. I have been to a Klipsch dealer where the salesman didn't even know what a Klipschorn was. Can you imagine how many people out there would drool at the sound of a properly setup Klipschorn in a dealer's showroom? It would probably impact their speaker selection.