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  1. Bob, good decision! I read the thread with bated breath, hoping you would see the light before it was too late, and you did! You would surely have regretted selling your Fortes for $400, though you would have made a friend for life! The point I want to make is that though the electronics can be important with Fortes (I own a pair of '86 Forte I's) the room and placement are really critical. I originally had my Fortes in a relatively small room with hardwood floors and few drapes and they were very lively but harsh at high levels. I came to believe that the harshness was related to the liveness of the room, reaching a kind of "saturation point". That's a description of my perception, not acoustic science. A few years later I moved to a much larger house. During the move I had my speakers at my place of employment in the breakroom for a Classical Music Society session, and in the larger (but still bright) room the speakers sounded MUCH better. Once they were installed in my new living room with 17 foot high fir plank pent-roof ceiling and 2 foot soffit-ledges 9 feet up and heavy drapes completely covering two adjacent walls and wall-to-wall carpet topped with area rugs, the sound was WAY better. The high, irregular ceiling and nonparallel and absorbent surfaces made all the difference. Later, I rope-caulked the mid horns. It DOES make a difference, though not a radical one. The composite (plastic) horn is better damped than a metal one, but it still has a resonance that can cause colorations. Just tap the floor of the horn with a pen or something similar, and you can hear the resonance. The rope caulk reduces it a lot, though some of the resonance is cavity-related rather than structural, and rope caulk won't help that. (Hint: the midrange horn can be removed through its front panel opening. There is a wide spot in the opening that allows the magnet to squirm through. But note carefully the polarity markings on wires and driver before disconnecting the wires, and replace them exactly the same way when reasssembling. Also, if you detach the driver from the horn, the diaphragm assembly can detach also, and must be treated with care and replaced precisely during reassembly.) Finally, a few weeks ago I decided to reposition the Fortes a slight amount. I had been doing some listening from a position forward of the sofa to reduce back-wall reflection effects, and I had noticed that though the angle between me and the speakers was greater at this closer listening position, there was still a strong center image, no hole-in-the-middle effect. So I increased the distance between the speakers by about 2 feet, and then to reduce horn blare I toed them in a bit more, so that the right speaker is aimed just to the left of the sweet spot and vice versa with the left speaker. This broadened the sweet spot and did something really good to the imaging and articulation. Playing discs that I had heard dozens of times, I now heard lots of things I had never noticed before in complex mixes like Pat Metheney's Secret Story: voices speaking and singing in the background of instrumental passages for example. I was also able in some cases to hear (and even count!) individual, closely spaced violins playing in unison rather than simply hearing massed strings. It was uncanny how much the sound was improved. Sorry for being long winded, but the point I am trying to make is: listen, analyze, tweak, learn. Your room and layout influence your sound in really profound ways. If you get it right, a variety of quality speakers and electronics will sound good in it. If you don't get it right, nothing will sound good. Specifically, I recommend that you try moving the speakers far enough apart to fire past the love seat (or raise them to fire over it). With the grilles removed, you should be able to see all of the drivers in their entirety from your listening position. Then aim them at or even past you ("cross-eyed"), and see what happens. Experiment with back tilting the speakers too. A few degrees can make a big difference because of horn directivity and "lobing" at crossover frequencies. Keep in mind that controlled-dispersion horns will sound great only in a fairly restricted area, whereas wide-dispersion speakers sound okay everywhere but great nowhere. Also, it is a sad fact that many mastering engineers try to juice up the sound of their recordings to sound livelier on the average dull speaker, and on a big-as-life speaker like the Forte they end up sounding harsh. For such recordings you need to have duller speakers or tweak the tone controls to compensate. You've decided your Fortes sound good. Now make them sound AWESOME! Cheers! Don
  2. As a matter of fact, I HAVE heard the JBL 18" subs recently, at a pro subwoofer shootout near Denver a couple of months ago. On demo were the JBL's (2), a pair of Peavy 18s, a pair of Bag Ends with some SERIOUS processing to get them down to 10Hz (!), a pair of Turbosound horn subs, a pair of EAW horn subs, and pair of Bassmax horn subs. My conclusion was that all the horn subs were better than any of the direct radiators. The JBL was easily the best of the direct radiators, because its distortion, though much higher than any of the horns, was more musical sounding than any of the other direct radiators. Of the horn systems, the Turbosound was the loudest and cleanest and deepest, but the Bassmax had the most musical quality. It is important to note that the test began with sweeps from 10Hz upward, and that the amplifiers went nuts and shut down because of problems driving speakers at such low freqs. And they were MONSTER amps: Crests and QSCs with outputs measured in kilowatts. Thus subsequent tests were limited to 30Hz and above, which was still plenty low! It is also important to note that the tests were in a storefront church that could seat 500 people, and were conducted at levels between 100 and 120 dB. So here's my take on your questions. The JBL subs, or most any sound reinforcement subs, would be overkill from a volume standpoint and underkill from a depth standpoint. You want to be able to reproduce the LOW synth or organ pedal tones, right? Of course you do! Subs designed for both hi-fi and home theater use are the ticket, as the best of them are designed for deep bass reproduction (to 30Hz or below) at relatively high levels in rooms of moderate size. SVS and Hsu come to mind, certainly, as legendary bang-for-the-buck home subs. The larger Klipsch Reference series subs are worth considering, along with Sunfire and all the usual suspects in the $1500+ range. One approach no one has mentioned yet is to find a single Klipschorn bottom cab (or a Speakerlab clone, or build your own) on Ebay and amp it for a sub. That's probably what I would do, just to keep an all-horns-all-the-time philosophy intact. Horns Are Good. Cheers! Don
  3. Okay, some closure on this thread at last! My buddy bought some like-new oak KG-3.2's from another buddy of mine. We had a chance to audition them extensively in his LR prior to purchase. I must say I was quite favorably impressed. The room was much smaller than my LR, and I did not have my Fortes there for a direct comparison, but I definitely noticed the strong family resemblance. The midrange was a little more forward than the Fortes (not as forward as KG-4's), the bass not QUITE as clean and deep, the imaging not as precise (small room reflections). Otherwise a really close match at the level required to saturate his small LR and risk a noise complaint from the next door neighbors (he does NOT live in an attached dwelling!). The greatest surprise for me was a CD of a Guilmant (sp?) pipe organ concerto that I was sure would leave the KG-3.2's gasping trying to reproduce the pedal notes blooming forth in cavernous Liverpool Cathedral. Not so! The result was quite exhilarating, perhaps because it was so unexpected. I conclude that I may one day be searching out a pair of these for rear channels to go with my Fortes, though I imagine Heresy II's would be an even closer timbre match. Or perhaps mains for the TV room? They have to be one of the best speaker bargains around. Amazing bass depth and loudness for 8" drivers! Count me impressed, and my buddy and his wife very pleased indeed. Don
  4. Hey, how about some Fortes instead? Very similar to Tangent 500, but slightly smaller and far more available. I just did an a-b comparison last weekend between my Fortes and a friend's Tangent 500s. My impressions: Construction: Fortes definitely better built; smaller cabinet but about same weight as Tangent (partly woofer magnet weight), corner cleats on Forte but not on Tangent, less resonant panels on Forte. Tangent mounts passive radiator on front (less placement-critical), Forte on rear. Drivers: Mid and tweet essentially identical. Woofers different; Forte has ribbed cone, rubber reverse half-round suspension, larger magnet. Tangent has treated textured cone, accordion surround, smaller magnet. I'm guessing Tangent has a higher free air resonance and higher Qts, requiring the larger box to get low bass. Sound: Tangent very slightly more efficient, more forward, slightly louder bass, good imaging. Forte very slightly less efficient, very lifelike, slightly cleaner and deeper bass, excellent imaging, particularly good soundstage depth and ambience. Verdict: Tangent seems to be a cost-controlled Forte. Tangent is a better party speaker, Forte a better critical listening speaker, especially for acoustic music. Both are FAR better than average speakers. Both can make your ears bleed. I prefer Fortes. If you go for Tangent 500s, brace those cabinets! Good luck. Don
  5. Yet another perspective regarding the Quartet/Forte/Chorus vs. KG4. I recently a-b compared my Fortes with a friend's KG-4s. More different than I had expected. KG-4s had impressive bass for their size, and unexpectedly sounded just as efficient as the Fortes on first listening. The KG4s had a more forward high midrange that sounded really punchy with some music styles, but harsh and thin and artificial compared to the Fortes with really natural acoustic music recordings like classical and folk. The reason the KG4s seemed a match for the Fortes efficiency at first is (I think) that the music we auditioned first was predominantly acoustic guitar, and in that frequency range the KG4s output is high compared to that at lower frequencies. Male voices also sounded less natural from the KG4s, as the chest tones sounded somewhat distant while the overtones were right up front, so the voice localization seemed smeared front-to-back. As a result of the audition my friend is selling his KG4s; not that either of us felt they were bad speakers at all... well above average actually. But Fortes are OUTSTANDING speakers. IMO KG4s would work really well in home theater applications where their higher intelligibility from the midrange rise would make dialog really clear. I speculate that the midrange peak we heard in the KG4s is due to lobing in the crossover region where all three active drivers are operating and throwing a vertically off-axis beam of sound, in which case careful placement, particularly vertical placement or tilt-back, might make a huge difference in how the speakers sound. Don
  6. ---------------- On 8/3/2003 9:14:52 PM zoocow wrote: Finally, just a few questions...the speakers say 4 ohms impedence..but the Klipsch website says 8. What is the difference really? ..my RF3 are 8 Ohms. ---------------- Zoocow, the original model Forte had a minimum impedance of 4 ohms at around 150Hz, and a maximum of over 100 ohms if I recall correctly: an unusually wide range, and perhaps a reason why they are considered somewhat amp-finicky. Most speakers nominally rated at 8 ohms dip down to 6 ohms or so in the midbass region, so the Forte at 4 ohms min. could be similarly classified as a 5 ohm speaker. A tube amp should probably use the 4 ohm tap; a SS amp must have good current output capability to handle the low impedance. If your SS amp's 4 ohm max wattage rating is not significantly higher than it's 8 ohm rating, then it is not high current and shouldn't be used with Fortes or other lower impedance speakers except at low volume levels. Likewise if the amp doesn't even HAVE a 4 ohm wattage rating, as is common with cheaper receivers, don't use it. Also, you should use heavier speaker wire with low impedance speakers to keep damping factor high and woofer cones under control. 12ga should be quite sufficient for most home situations. Welcome to the Forte club. How sweet it is! Don
  7. ---------------- On 7/30/2003 7:27:19 PM Dflip wrote: --------------- Many on this forum, including myself would disagree strongly with you on this statement. The right electronics make a huge difference to the quality of the sound. At high db's the horns can scream at you on some/many solid state amps, preamps or receivers. That is why many are using tube amps to get the most out of their Klipsch speakers. Don ---------------- Don, I'm trying to believe what you assert, it's just that logic (or more likely ignorance) gets in my way. I hear the same thing about speaker cables all the time, and I think that's mostly a bunch of snake oil, as do people like Paul Dunlavy. Amps have a lot more room for variation or error than speaker cables do, but I wish someone could propose some kind of measurement method other than the subjective human ear to differentiate between amps. Slew rate? Square wave response? Damping factor? THD? IM? TIM, power bandwidth issues, frequency response anomalies? If all these nasties are quite low, even identical between amps, why do the amps sound so different? Is 70vdc from a toroidal transformer different from 70vdc from a conventional transformer? What unnamed and thus far unmeasurable property is responsible for making amp A sound harsh at high frequencies when driving a horn to high levels, whereas amp B does not do so? A crucial question, because until it can be detected and measured, designers are shooting in the dark in trying to correct it. And can these unmeasurable differences affect the sound more than a sharp -8dB notch at 6kHz from driver alignment problems at a crossover point? If harshness at high output levels is a horn-plus-some-solid-state-amps characteristic, does the horn somehow KNOW what kind of amp is driving it, even if the waveforms are identical? Sorry about the near-rant. You just happened to bring up a point of bewilderment for me. I want an explanation for everything. And (not that you are doing this) I get skeptical when audio gear gets the wine critic treatment: "It's a sunny and winsome little interconnect, with a generous helping of mellow June evenings, green at first then bending toward yellow, dry in the ear canal but slightly dampish at the eardrum. Placing Czech leaded glass paperweights on it at 2.83cm intervals failed to correct the dampness to my full satisfaction. Still, a best buy at the price." I don't doubt that tube amps sound different, and maybe better, at least for some program material. But if the objective is to hear the music as it was recorded, does a tube amp do that and solid state probably not? Or does a tube amp make it sound BETTER than the recording? (Many recordings NEED this!) Or does a tube amp correct some negative characteristics of horns so that they can sound more like the original recording? Or is it something that just can't be verbalized? And will my friend be unable to really enjoy his music collection unless he picks just exactly the right amp? Please enlighten me. Or ignore me; I won't take offense if you do. Cordially, (also) Don
  8. Lynn, You're a Laurie Fincham associate/disciple?..... We're not worthy! (genuflecting) Now that's off my chest, I would like to recommend that before you try to correct the wee prominences in your Chorus response with major surgery or filters, you might try damping the horns, which are pretty ringy as supplied. Most tweakers here use "rope caulk", a moldable weatherstrip cord product available at home centers. I'd be REALLY interested in before-and-after measurements on that tweak, as I own Fortes which use essentially the same horns. I have recently struck up a friendship with a former Klipsch employee who is still associated with the OEM which manufactures most of Klipsch's HF drivers. He is going to be sending me some alternative-material diaphragms (titanium, aluminum)for my Forte horns. He is really big on the sound of the aluminum diaphragms over the stock polyetherimide, though he says they tend to fatigue over time if driven at really high levels (which I NEVER do, oh no!). He says that the titanium ones ring too much, and that titanium is only in wide use because of marketing hype and because the ringing sounds sizzlin' good to some people. If and when I get these I may send them your way for some measurements, if you're game. Since you obviously like the Chorus, you will also have to look up some Fortes to audition. Many consider them the best in the Chorus/Forte/Quartet family. Significant bass extension below the Chorus due to higher cab-volume/driver-size ratio. You'd be welcome to audition mine if you're anywhere near Colorado, though I'm guessing you're from the Isles. Welcome to high efficiency heaven! Don ---------------- On 7/30/2003 1:09:41 PM LynnOlson wrote: By the way, my current project is smoothing out the top end of the Chorus I mid horn - it has a pair of bumps at about 5.5 and 6.8kHz that are 5dB high. I'll be measuring Gary Dahl's Chorus II's (which arrive on his doorstep today ) and see if the Tractrix does the same thing. If not, then I decide between woodwork on the Chorus I or a notch filter added to the crossover. Back in the bad old days of Audionics, I made notch and inductance-correction filters for each driver even before I did the high and low-pass filters, so that would be nothing new for me. But I also remember there's no free lunch in speaker design - even the most skillful notch filter subtly degrades transparency and the sense of "directness", so you have to avoid over-equalizing the speaker. ----------------
  9. Thanks for the suggestion, Todd. Sorry about the delayed response. I am actually getting some "professional" help on this question now. At a trade show a few weeks ago (I work in the music biz) I was introduced to a former Klipsch employee, I believe a one-time manager of Klipsch Pro's sales and marketing. He is very savvy technically. We hit it off right away and may actually do some audio projects together. He is suggesting some of the professional cabs for my friend, a possibility I had not previously considered. He particularly mentioned a flyable 8" 2-way (KP-102)and a commercial sub (KP-115SW). He is also sending me some alternative-material (aluminum, titanium) diaphragms for my Fortes for experimentation (grinning fiendishly as I dodge envious daggers). In reply to another posted question, no I'm not particularly interested in electronics suggestions, though if you have a really high bang-for-buck recommendation please go ahead and make it. I feel that the electronics are not nearly as important as the speakers if a little care is taken in selection. I myself am running a cheap 45wpc Onkyo HT receiver with very good results. Don ---------------- On 7/9/2003 5:36:03 PM toddc wrote: I think you should give a play to the new RB-75. (snip) ----------------
  10. Thanks again for the responses. To clarify the room size, I recall it as being at most 12x12, with a walkway on the left from the front door (rear wall left corner) to a hallway (front wall left corner. Sofa, 2 chairs, a few cabinets. As suggested, he MIGHT be amenable to something as large as Choruses but he's married so that's not likely to work from a WAF standpoint. I should look at his room again and see if some slim floorstanders would work, like RF-3. KG4 is a good suggestion though just a bit big, and with a rear passive they cannot be mounted against a wall. KG2 looks like a good fit except for same rear passive problem (they actually go lower than KG4, I've seen the curves, but only 90.5 dB). I will have to find some KG1 to audition. I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado. Anyone nearby listening in who has a pair I can check out? G'day! Don
  11. Thanks for the suggestions. Some of you didn't read my question very closely (shakes finger); I'm not trying to add smaller speakers to my Forte system, but trying to spec a compact system with as much Forte magic as possible for my friend's tiny living room. I'll definitely look into the KG1 and subwoofer, though if I recall correctly the KG1 is relatively inefficient at 90dB; and I tend, right or wrong, to associate slam with efficiency. OTOH, how much slam is possible in a small room with very short delay times before the reflections take over? (that's rhetorical unless someone cares to comment) BTW, I'm also looking at some Adire HE8.1's with a sub or HE10.1's, the advantage being that as kits he would have the chance to shape and finish the cabs to suit his room provided he retains the proper box volume. But he has that Ol' Time Klipsch Religion thanks to my Fortes so any other brand will be a hard sell. Hmmm. Maybe he should buy some old beat-up Heresys and make new slimline cabs for them, or build them into old-style console cabs with legs, that can double as end tables. G'day! Don
  12. Hi, Gang. I have a friend who has asked me to help him spec a system for his small living room. He LOVES my '86 Fortes and wants something that sounds similar, but his room just won't allow floorstanders or stand-mounted. Heresys are probably too big also, or I'd suggest a pair of those and a sub. I'm also doubtful that cabs with a rear port or passive radiator will work because he really needs to mount them against a wall. What should he get? I'm looking for replies from people familiar with the Forte sound who know whereof they speak. BTW, he mostly listens to rock, folk/ethnic, and jazz, and he particularly wants something that does kick-snare-bass with the snap and authority of the Fortes, without sacrificing good vocals. Thanks! Don
  13. On 6/19/2003 6:06:24 PM John Albright wrote: "The rope caulck actually absorbs vibration and converts it to heat, plus the extra mass lowers the resonant frequency (hopfully below the crossover point)." --------------- Hi, John. Yes, you are correct about why the toothpick makes the horn more inert, and also in your explanation of the effect of the rope caulk. (When I mentioned Dynamat I meant rope caulk; Dynamat is generally used for damping stamped steel woofer frames, duh.) I can see how the caulk would increase the moving mass and therefore lower the resonant frequency, and how a plastic (vs. elastic) material could provide some damping, but I am also concerned that with higher moving mass the Q of the resonance might increase and cause the horn to resonate as it is excited by WOOFER vibrations BELOW the crossover point. I design support structures for a living, and it is my experience that adding mass to an oscillating structure causes the frequency to drop and the amplitude to increase. Have you heard of anyone correcting plastic horn ringing by STIFFENING the horn body? I'm thinking of some transverse stiffening ribs or rings on the outer surfaces. The horn material is most likely ABS, and it would be easy to bandsaw some 1/4" thick sheet ABS rings to bond to the outside of the horn. G'day! Don
  14. As I was messing around with my '86 Fortes yesterday it became clear to me just how mechanically underdamped and ringy-cuppy the plastic mid-horns are. A light tap on the floor or roof of the horn interior produces a loud and obnoxious pop, like tapping the bottom of a paper cup. I'm sure the Dynamat tweak recommended in earlier posts is the preferred way to correct this, but here's a dead simple compromise. Take a square or round cross-section toothpick and break the tips off to make it just over 1-1/2" long (for a Forte, anyway). Wedge the toothpick vertically between the floor and ceiling of the horn. You're done! The horn is now far more mechanically inert, as you can confirm by tapping the floor of the horn with a fingernail with and without the toothpick installed. Maybe it's just my imagination, but I thought the speakers sounded noticeably more mellow and sweet after the pick treatment, with less of a "loud whisper" overtone. Try this for yourself and let us know what you think. Don (who is foolishly considering building a pair of K-horns)
  15. Just checking in to say thanks for the help. I'm going 5.1 (Onkyo) but I remain skeptical about the superiority of a separate subwoofer even if it extends the system response down to 20Hz. Julian Hirsch's Stereo Review test of the original Forte logged by far the lowest (in 1986) bass distortion ever measured by him, and still state-of-the-art today. The possibility of phase cancellations when crossing over to a sub at a low frequency seems high. I am afraid I might lose (low distortion, flat response) more than I gain (1/2 octave bass). I know this is an awfully conservative outlook, but with 2ch music as my top priority I think it is justified. I might change my tune if I start viewing movies a lot. Thanks again.
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