Boomzilla

Hi reference_head! Have you ever heard Emotiva gear? Having owned more than a half dozen of their items including: UMC-1 AV preamp XDA-1 DAC XPA-2 power amp Mini-X power amp XSP-1 stereo preamp Power cables Interconnects HDMI cables I think that the Emotiva gear is the absolute cleanest-sounding that I've ever owned. Despite this, I don't consider myself an Emotiva "fanboy." The UMC-1 just wasn't my cup of tea, for example. I would say, however, that the Emotive power amplifiers are the best I've ever owned, and I've owned products from McIntosh, Bryston, Classé, and many, many other makers. So to the OP, I'd recommend Emotiva amplifiers without reservation and IMHO they are "as clean" as any I've ever heard.

When Klipsch came out with their "new" MDF cabinets, they (wisely) took the step with the La Scala 2's of making all cabinet walls significantly thicker for vibration control. With the Cornwalls, however, the original 3/4" thickness was used. The results, in my opinion, are insufficiently stiff cabinets that resonate and "sing along" with the music, particularly in the bass. My Cornwall 3s (henceforth "Cs") sound very loose and boomy in the bass frequencies. This is not a room artifact. The same location where the speakers are placed has worked well with many other speakers (including Cornwall ones) without the bass issues that the Cs have. This is not a result of slap echo - the room is treated with ATS panels and has worked well with many other speakers. This is not an amplification artifact. The Cs have been tried with a half dozen different amps, none of which adequately control the boomy bass. Some amplifiers do seem to be slightly better than others. The "tightest" that I've tried so far is an Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc, solid-state). Although the boom is not gone, it is somewhat reduced with this amp. Assuming, therefore, that the remaining looseness and bloat in the bass is a result of cabinet vibration, my question becomes: Without damaging the resale value of the Cs, what modifications are feasible with the speakers that will reduce cabinet vibration? Ideas that I've come up with (but have not yet tried) include: Screwing a small ATS pad to the back of the speaker - foam to the cabinet, for panel control Taking some open-cell foam and making plugs for the port openings Using self-adhesive lead wheel weights to add mass inside the cabinet Using poly fill to stuff the cabinets Damping the woofer struts with adhesive material and using a felt sheet to attenuate the woofer's back wave for higher frequencies So the point of the thread is to ask: Will any of the proposed mods improve the bass of the Cs, or do I need to consider other choices? If the latter, what choices might be effective? Thanks - Boomzilla

OK - My thread about amplification in general didn't quite answer my specific question, so I'm starting this thread. My Cornwall 3s (henceforth "Cs") were initially unlistenable in my room. As it turned out, the room was mostly at fault. Being very "live" with excessive slap echo, the Cs sounded boomy, bright, and just plain ugly. Once I realized that the room was at fault, I installed some ATS panels that seem to have brought very good results. In the treated room, the Cs sound much better, but the bass is still an issue. Since other speakers in the same positions have NOT caused bass problems, I know that room geometry is not the problem. The Cs have poor pitch definition in the lower frequencies. They also are not as tight and tactile as I'd like. Some of this may be solved with amplification but some may depend on the Cs' cabinets. I'd like, in this thread to studiously IGNORE potential cabinet issues and focus on amplification matching for better bass. In theory, having a solid-state amplifier with very low output impedance and high damping factor should produce better woofer control. To that end, I've tried an Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc, solid-state). This amplifier has successfully controlled Theil 1.6 and 3.6 speakers whose bass is notoriously difficult because of both low impedance and complicated crossover phase angles. The same amplifier, however, doesn't seem to do much for the Cs. Going to the other end of the amplification scale, I've also tried two different vacuum tube power amplifiers. A pair of Vacuum Tube Logic "Compact 100" monoblocks was tried first. These amplifiers had previously been used with La Scalas and sounded ravishing. Unfortunately, they did nothing special for the Cs' bass. Also, a Rogue Audio Tempest Magnum tube integrated was tried (in both ultralinear mode - 60 wpc - and in triode mode - 30 wpc) without any significant improvement. So to get to the point of the thread - What amplifier(s) do YOU use with your Cornwall 3s, and how well do the amps control the bass? Focus answers, please, on what specific amplifiers or integrated amps worked well (or not) with your Cornwall 3 speakers. Thanks - Boomzilla

Thanks, I'm good at missing the point (unfortunately). I'm already selling off the "losers" of the race. Since I bought them all used via either Craigslist or eBay, the financial pain is not at all significant. In fact, I'm making a small profit on some of the equipment; but I digress... So your point, in plain English, is that performance DOES improve with increased expenditure? I'd agree that expecting an inexpensive box to compete with cost-no-object equipment will produce the expected results every time. There are, however, products in the middle that are exceptional bargains for their cost. It's those I'm seeking. Even if I fail to identify a bargain and end up having to pay top-dollar for top performance, I'm willing to do it. I just don't want to have paid top dollar and then found that I didn't get what I paid for. For example, one would expect that Krell electronics, based on their reputation and their house sound, would provide extremely tight bass with just about any speaker they meet. So would a Krell integrated amp turn my Cornwall "rumble boxes" into something else? Maybe; maybe not... If the problem is driver control, then yes, I'd expect the Krell to work its magic. If the problem is box resonance though, not even the Krell will be able to prevail. That's why I'm "fishing the forum" for those with experience with the Cornwall 3 models. What electronics do YOU use? What are their strengths and weaknesses? If you had to do it again, would you buy the same electronics? What tweaks have you tried? Did they work? This is info that isn't readily apparent and that virtually NO "professional review" will ever mention. Only the owners have the experience to help. Again - I'm open to suggestions. Thanks - Boomzilla

And that's exactly correct. If it were about the money, I'd have just chosen the cheapest (or most expensive, depending on predilection), and been satisfied. If it sounds right, then it IS right (regardless of price).

Alas, if I had it all figured out, I wouldn't be spending time posting on a forum - I'd be listening! I am beginning, however, to narrow the list of possible suspects for amplification. At the top of the "maybes" list is the Peachtree integrated. It has built in DAC, a switchable tube preamp stage, and is universally well-reviewed. My question is "does the Peachtree's class-D power amp section have the muscle to control the bass of the Cornwalls?" Another idea that occurred to me was that if ATS panels on the walls controlled room echo, might an ATS panel (screwed onto the back of each speaker with the foam against the speaker's back) also control box vibrations on the Cornwall cabinets. I still think that at least some of the wooly bass I'm hearing from my Cornwall 3s is due to cabinet vibration. I have no idea how thick the back panel is, but it seems the largest of the panels on the cabinet. I'm sure that nobody has actually tried this idea (except maybe for Mr. Moray James), but is there any technical reason why it wouldn't work? It is minimally intrusive, doesn't destroy the future value of the speakers, and will be invisible from the listening position.

Those may have been "cheap" in the money department, but they're neither obsolete nor low-end! Wish I could hear them!

Well, I've heard WONDERFUL sound for less than stellar equipment before. A Frank Van-Alstine modified Dynaco PAS is an (inexpensive) thing of sonic wonder. Even lower on the food-chain, I tried a Qinpu A-6000 (tube pre + SS chip outputs) that sounded ravishing at 16 wpc. At the time I tried it, my speakers weren't 16 wpc friendly; now they are. I've read a GLOWING review in TAS magazine about a Nu-Force DDA-100 that would do everything I wanted, but then read a review at 6-moons (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce17/5.html) that said the amp only sounded good when almost clipping. Point is, it isn't about money, it's about the sound. I don't expect electrostatic speed from my Cornwalls; I don't expect Magnepan transparency from my Cornwalls; I don't expect Theil imaging from my Cornwalls. What I do expect is realistic vocals, good detail from top to bottom, some soundstaging, and good bass. My definition of "good bass" includes a lower register that is tight, has good pitch definition, and goes deep enough not to need a subwoofer. These are realistic expectations for a speaker of the Cornwall's construction, design criteria, and size. What I haven't yet found yet is an amplification combination that will fulfill those expectations. As to electronics, my philosophy is "less equipment is better equipment." I'd rather have one box on the rack than three or four. That leads me toward an integrated amplifier with a DAC built in. I've had some tell me that what I want isn't available. I don't believe it. SOMEBODY makes it! The Bel-Canto that I read about in a recent TAS magazine might be a contender; the Nu-Force might be; NAD makes integrateds with DACs. All of the previous, however, are solid state only. If I can get the sound I want from solid state, then I'm perfectly happy to do so. One other recommendation that might work is the Peachtree (which has a switchable tube buffer in it). And now the ball's in your court again, ladies - You know what I want, where should I go to get it?

Well, ladies, at least SOME progress... I've taken the Dared SL2000A preamp OUT of the system for good. I've asked Dared for an RMA number. I'm skeptical that I'll receive one, but we'll see... I tried the Audioquest Dragonfly directly into the Emotiva XPA-2 (which I consider a WONDERFUL solid-state power amp). The image collapsed, the sound was dry as dust, and the system sounded profoundly "solid state." Not a happy match. Then, leaving the Dragonfly as combo DAC and preamp, I (reluctantly) put the VTL Compact 100s back into the mix. NOW the soundstage opened up and instruments began sounding "real." The problem was that I've now got too much midrange! Norah Jones' piano sounds fine, but when her voice enters the mix, she's about 10 times too loud! I'm open to ideas here... Mr. Moray James' ping-pong balls in the midrange and tweeter horns may be another option. The current combo is but a stop-gap measure. I profoundly DON'T want vacuum-tube power amps - period. They worry me. I'd much prefer a solid state power section with a tube front end. Better reliability, etc. Options, as I see them are: buy a tube preamp that doesn't hum ditch the pre/power setup and buy a hybrid integrated find a solid-state integrated (with built-in DAC) that sounds good with the Cornwalls get one of youse guys to recommend some electronics that sound awesome with the Cornwalls The Cornwalls, being bass reflex puppies, don't strike me as being the tightest bass around. One amp that I've been reading about (mixed reviews) is the Nu-Force DDA-100. At 50 WPC, it should have more than enough oomph for the Cornwalls since I'm not a head-banger. Anyone heard that one? So to sum up, I'm still at loose ends on amplification. Now (in my best Ben Stein voice): Anyone? Anyone?

Hi Dean - Various points you make as well. I'd like to address them individually, if I may. 1. You comment that the preamp isn't listed with my amplifier list. That's because a variety (or none at all) was used. For the majority of the amps, the preamp used is a Chinese Dared SL2000A tube line stage. With the VTLs, the combo was far too lush, putting a layer of syrup over everything played. I also tried using an AudioQuest Dragonfly directly into the VTLs - Better, but still no synergy. The HK AVR and the Rogue Tempest, being a receiver and integrated respectively, were used without a preamp. For the HK, the TOSLINK output of my Macbook drove the receiver directly. For the Tempest, the Dragonfly drove it. The best I've gotten so far is with the Dared into the Emotiva. Other than the serious Dared hum (which I just can't cure - I've asked for an RMA number), this is an OK sound. 2. You comment that a synergistic combo is what we all seek. Agreed, but for most of us, it either never happens, or is so fleeting that we don't recognize it till it's gone. So I'll ask the Cornwall III owners here on the Klipsch Community: What's the very best combo of preamp-power-amp, integrated amp, or receiver that you've ever heard on your Cornwall 3 speakers? I want the "MAGIC!" Thanks - Boomzilla

The most synergistic system I've ever heard in my LIFE was generation one La Scalas with VTL tube monoblock amplifiers. Presence, imaging, dynamics - I've NEVER heard a stereo sound so much like live music. Wish I'd kept the La Scalas - The VTLs just don't sound the same with the Cornwalls...

So is Milla Kunis worth the return on investment over Hillary Clinton? Yes, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder!

How interesting. My experience is the opposite. A Chinese hybrid (Qinpu) with 16 wpc developed better soundstage and clarity than my 300 wpc behemoth.

How interesting. My experience is just the opposite. A Chinese hybrid integrated (Qinpu) with 16 wpc produced better soundstage and clarity than my 300 WPC dreadnaught.

An excellent point, and one that should surely be considered during buying decisions. In my case, my Cornwall IIIs are to be my "final" speakers until I need to move to a different residence. If the new home hasn't room for the Cornwalls (likely since we'd like to "downsize"), then my follow up system will consist of self-powered monitors and a small sub.

Yes, it goes without saying that advice given on the internet (including mine) should be examined critically. However, many come to audio boards for information and, lacking any other authoritative source, accept the advice given as gospel. The advice to overbuy on electronics is thickest on the boards of the electronics manufacturers. The fanboys are quick to advise enough power to run the starship Enterprise... The purpose of this post isn't to discourage the purchase of whatever electronics suit your budget and/or your taste. The point is that for many, separates are not necessary to achieve excellent sound. Since subwoofers in HT systems do the "heavy lifting" of bass response, the current demands on the main and auxiliary loudspeakers are significantly reduced. For stereo listening, integrated amplifiers or stereo receivers still offer excellent sound at reasonable prices. Not everyone can avail themselves of the "bargain amp" option, but it is more frequently a viable option than the online forums would indicate.

No argument whatsoever from me. My point was not that we shouldn't buy what we want, but rather that sometimes the uninformed (who don't have the money to spare) are coached by internet "experts" to spend a significant share of their budget on components that are overkill for their purposes.

I see thread after thread here and elsewhere on the web where a newbie says "I have X speakers - what amp do I need?" The usual suspects all then pile on with how the newbie needs to save up for gazillion-watt monoblocks. So I just thought I'd post a "general info" on who actually DOES and DOESN'T need those high-$$$ electronics. Let me say up front that some speakers and some rooms DO demand higher power and control. For example: 1. If your speakers are extremely inefficient 2. If your speakers are rated at four ohms or less 3. If your speakers have complicated crossovers with extreme phase-angles 4. If your room is the size of an auditorium 5. If you like to listen at roaring levels (this gets worse with time since you go deaf...) One or more of the above conditions is probably justification NOT to use an AV receiver. For example, I've owned a couple of pairs of Theil loudspeakers in the past. Despite being wonderful speakers, they were the dickens to drive and needed lots of current even at lower listening levels. On the other hand, the converse of the above conditions means that even a hundred watts is probably overkill. Of course, to get by with an AVR, ALL of the following conditions have to be met; i.e. 6. Your speakers produce 95 decibels or more at one watt at one meter 7. Your speakers are rated at eight ohms and don't fall very far below at any frequency 8. Your speakers' crossovers are fairly simple and don't increase amplifier load significantly 9. Your room is reasonably sized 10. You DON'T listen at absurd levels In such circumstances, what does one really get for spending extra money on amplification? Actually, not much. I base that statement on listening in the following circumstances: I have Klipsch Cornwall IIIs. Klipsch (perhaps somewhat optimistically) specs them at 102 decibels at one watt and one meter. Nevertheless, the speakers are certainly highly efficient by any measure. My room measures 25 x 15, and is treated with ATS sound absorbing panels to deaden echo. I don't listen at loud levels unless I have friends over who want to hear the system crank. I have tried the following amplifiers with the Cornwalls: VTL Compact 100 tube monoblocks (100 watts each) Rogue Audio Tempest Magnum tube integrated (60 wpc) Emotiva Mini-X (50 wpc) Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc) HK AVR 1565 (50 wpc rating - probably closer to 20) Pioneer SA-5200 (10 wpc) You know what? Although all of the above sounded different, they all sounded just fine! Even the 10 wpc Pioneer was adequate to drive the Cornwalls to room-filling sound. So are the high-ticket amplifiers worth their premium cost? In my room and with my speakers, no they aren't. This is not to say that the more expensive amps lack virtues. Among the virtues of the more expensive amps: Better construction quality that probably translates into longer service life Versatility to drive speakers that the less expensive (and less powerful) amplifiers can't Ability to play significantly louder without strain Do these virtues justify the price differences? Again, in my room and with my speakers, no they don't. The conclusion of this ramble: Consider carefully what you need and what you don't before allocating a significant portion of your audio budget to amplification. It is VERY easy to spend a great deal of money for amplification capabilities that you don't need and may never use. The speakers you choose, the listening room you use, and your volume preferences should dictate the amount of power that you buy - not any misguided notion that more powerful amps (or those with premium brand names) are always "better." Cordially - Boomzilla (Moniker NOT indicative of listening preferences)

It depends ENTIRELY on the room. My room is most unusual in that it has openings at all four corners into other areas of the house (foyer, hall, kitchen, & stairwell). I have NO standing wave issues and bass is clear and uniform even without room correction software. The ATS panels, however, DID make a BIG improvement in the bass response of the Cornwalls. My room, however, is the exception rather than the rule... The majority of rooms really need some help in the bass. Room correction software helps, but it can't do everything. A room WITH some bass-traps is easier to equalize than one without. Again - money spent on room treatment is money WELL spent. Boomzilla

WITHOUT room correction software, the room treatment is MANDATORY for my room. None of my electronics have room correction, so I had to treat the room.

If you use iTunes, then PureMusic is the BEST. I can't use iTunes because it loses AND erases my files.

Actually, there's NOTHING wrong with the Oppo idea. It fits in well with my stated philosophy (fewer components are better components), but that choice is yours. I'm also using my MacBook + Audioquest Dragonfly as a "transport," but this puts too much equipment in my living room. Plan B is to keep only an AirPort Express in the living room, fed by a desktop over ethernet from another room. The iPad will be the remote, and "AirTunes" will allow the AirPort Express to be used as an audio device. The TOSLINK output from the AirPort Express will feed an AVR. This gets a LOT of equipment out of my living room including UPS, MacBook, external USB RAID array, and the Dragonfly. I'll only need the ethernet cable, AirPort Express, and a TOSLINK cable. If I wanted to actually stream the audio wirelessly, I could dispense with the ethernet cable also, but since it's already there, I'll keep it. Happy Shopping! Boomzilla

For $399, the Emotiva XDA-2 DAC has plenty of digital inputs AND a stepped, analog volume control. It can be used as a combo DAC/Preamp. It's a bargain for the price. I, personally, currently use an Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC ($250). Sounds great! My general philosophy is that fewer components are better components. Of course, taken to the extreme, you'd end up with an AVR! Happy shopping - Boomzilla

Mr. James is correct ONLY if you have the II or III model Heritage speakers with the Tractix horn tweeters. For the old K-77 tweeters, the toilet paper option is the ONLY option. In my experience, it DOES work and it DOESN'T mess with the imaging. Since I've never tried the paper option on the newer speakers, and since ping-pong balls are cheap, I'd go with Mr. James' suggestion if I had a II or III series speaker that needed midrange or treble attenuation. I must say, though, that if your room is properly treated to avoid slap-echo, that the factory balance sounds just fine to my ears. I'm currently running Cornwall III models and they sound great. Before I put up ATS pads to kill the room echo, though, the room made the factory speakers sound terrible! So my conclusion is to fix the room first! Cheers - Boomzilla

I must say, though, that the things that make the MOST difference in your sound are (in order of importance): 1. The room 2. The speakers 3. Speaker positioning 4. The electronics 5. Everything else In a bad room, NOTHING will sound right; in a good room even poor components can sound fine. PS: The Rogue audio scores about a 9 on the goodness scale - a fine amp for sure!