HornEd

Ho, ho, ho, BBB... once again your have proven that size counts no pia mater watt P. Parrot sez! ARRRRRRRRRRH EFFF 7.1 ROCKS! Especially when you put an RC in an RS ROLE!! -HornEd

Ah ha! You were only Foo Ling... but I was falling in love... with the laminar flow of B+ electrons invigorated with inverted silvery m00nlight connectors across a grate of green (arsenamide) Heronimous Bosch contacts creating a 12 gauge shotgun welding of wired technologies! The concept was further deliniated when the Drake led a team of Whistler-Swan scientists in 2000 that published a widely acclaimed study indicating that during the magnetic reconnection process, a two-layer flow of particles is created that speeds the release of energy. In this laminar flow theory, "whistler waves" cause the essential meet plasma that is pulled along by the slinging field lines to divide into two streams, one of A- electrons and the other of ionized atoms as I recall. Thus, such Lynn-M-ent Logic soothes the extended commute effect in electron-microscopy of one's gluteus to the maximus... curing inflexibility and iliotibial tract tightness at the cost of degradation of the A- electrons by one-quarter gradient. Hence, the Home Depot VSLI B- electron acquisition provides the convincing thirty-scent per foot node modal test data. Yep, Forum Friends, one has to get up pretty early in April to read Foo Ling at 1200 BCE! HornEd

Actually, heretic, HornEd has seen it and is building a fully horn-loaded subterranean subwoofer into his new six K-horn Theater with soundstage improving Klipsch Belle Front and Rear Effects speakers. Actually, I am in the design stage on the sub... but the low bass pass through circular interior walls with the huge bass trap behind them creates an interesting alternative for a theater in the round. The Khorns will be mounted in specially designed false corners that mount flush to the interior circular wall. The Belles will be mounted so the fronts are flush with the circular wall as well. Well as "flush" as a circle meets any square! -HornEd PS: I've seen the "tweeter" photo before and... I think I'll pass!!!

Hmm, time does go by even whether you are not having fun or not! Dan, I didn't know you were interested in Belles, I have a nice oak pair in storage in San Francisco that I am about to bring to my Santa Cruz Mountain retreat. I had hoped that the fellow in Tracy would trade me for your Belles as you indicated he would... but he just hasn't responded to my email requests. Seems Jorjen had a similar problem. If you have any ideas on how to break the log jam... I'd like another set of Khorns. -HornEd

Oops, I thought I had lost the previous post and was substituting this shorter one... ahh, the joys of senior citizenry! Andy, on the day you report my "Swiss Mrs." and I should be winging our way to our honeymoon in Tahiti. May 3rd is also my birthday. Although life has been too full for me to respond to your last email, I am indeed interested in re-creating those enormous Klipsch outdoor classics in the finished amphitheater. Keep in touch! I had hoped to have an expanded exchange of email on that horn-delicious project. -HornEd

Andy, in all that I have been doing lately... plus our wedding scheduled for the day before you're called up... I haven't been able to respond to your email about building those special Klipsch versions for the amphitheater. Unfortunately, the time was too short to fit in the custom units for the three-day festival this spring where the equipment will be provided by a friend in the business. I would definitely like to build something like that after this summer season. As a vet, I am sure this call up has some mixed blessings... but, knowing you, I trust that it will be a kick-***-start to a new adventure and an enrichment of your life as a "You Are There" historian. I will respond further to your email... which is in my bulging "To be Answered" archive. Please stay in touch with me... and with the Forum where scads of minds have enjoyed your wit and twice as many ears have benefited from your wisdom. HornEd PS: After seeing the proposed schedule, maybe I should ditch this wedding thing and head the Klipsch motorhome for Little Rock! PPS: It's a good thing my "Swiss Miss" hasn't got in the habit of reading this Forum... yet!

Sorry, artto, I missed your reply. There are times when I have little time to do what I enjoy here... because of what I enjoy there! Right now "there" is demanding attention. Both the works of Paul Klipsch and Floyd Toole have influenced my audio passions... and neither is a fan of a round room so far as I know. Round rooms are generally rejected out of hand on theoretical grounds... perhaps because rectangular spaces fit acoustic math principles. I, too, dismissed the round room until my experience with rebuilding the theater built by Eastman Kodak for my own use. Frankly, due to the semi-round and unparallel aspects... I didn't bother with the math but concentrated on gut feel and ear confirmation thereof. The results were so superior with the medium quality speakers that I used for experimentation... that I never bothered to replace them with the higher quality speakers as originally intended. It was, after all, a showroom theater... and it blew away the "experts" who visited that theater along with the originator of "Hard Rock Cafes" with whom I had a business deal. I agree with you that most "White Paper" issues are for the masses and that those among us who create rooms as part of our audio experience are not for whom those words were written. For example, I am perfectly at home with taking apart a perfectly good speaker and putting it back together and feeding it in a way that improves my sound experience... and then, by test, tends to improve the sound experience of others as well. Generally speaking, I have had different systems and rooms for critical three channel music enjoyment and 6.1 multi-channel HT experiences. My current HT project is the first time that I am seriously using multi-Klipschorns in a 6.1 monopole theater. The sound was so superior when my Eight Legend Home Theater was moved into a circular yurt with multilayered fabric sides that the round room contemplations were included in my latest ultimate theater quest. Of course, the eminently permeable round room has no axial nodes because sound waves below 85 Hz go right through the walls never to return while sound waves above 85 Hz find sufficient reflections to create a smooth circular ambience. I have used a stiffened false wall to provide a corner boost bass to my stacked cylindrical subwoofer configuration. Dawn has broken and I have a meeting to direct that will have an audio visual component in the current Home Theater. Ill try to get back to more definitive aspects of this issue but that will probably not be for awhile. Meanwhile, thanks for being there! -HornEd

---------------- On 4/4/2004 2:23:41 PM Bill H. wrote: dantfmly, Yes I agree with you that you Used to be able to do this. But the PX no longer carries Klipsch brand speakers...............:>(. ---------------- First I hear Klipsch is going to market with a "Public Enemy"... and now the big Klipsch incentive for an all expense paid trip to Iraq has gone by the boards... what's an over-the-hill patriot to do? -HornEd

Well said Bruinsrme! Giving the Oregon m00n a chance to rise first is the essence of why this Forum is a cut above so many others... it's the people who populate it... and the no BS approach of the late PWK. That being said, I would bet the m00n that he would do the same for you. All WDST speakers send sounds under 2,000 Hz toward the listener and bounce 2,000 Hz to 20,000 Hz off the adjacent walls and other "hard-bodies" that are not in the sweet spot. And, frankly, some of the shorter frequencies don't bounce very well... they just get lost in those "hard-body" cracks and never reach your ears! Bipole, tripole and, most of all, dipole speakers are designed to confuse the ear as to the precise directional source of a sound with tripole's allowing the lows a bit more source honesty. Some folks wallow in being awash with sound... like pitching a tent in an afterburner... it's a trip! But, if you already have a pair of WDST's spraying every object around your sweet spot, what is the positional advantage of mounting another pair on your rear wall to essentially spray more of the same area with sounds that are generally produced from the left and right sound channels to begin with? Okay, granted, you will gain a positional advantage for sounds under 2,000 Hz... essentially the monopole constituent of WDST. So, if that is where the advantage lies... why not buy full range monopoles for your full-range rear-wall enjoyment in the first place? Now, don't get me wrong... I understand there is a huge market out there of people who would rather soak their "rear" in a cacophony of sound spray... no matter what the audio engineer on the DVD, SACD, etc. may have intended... but some of us sound slitherers would rather stick our audio-tongue in each of the cool flavors of rainbow sherbet... instead of lapping up the mess after a sonic meltdown. Orchids to you my m00n friend... for looking at the realities of your acoustic potential rather than accept a sales tract as your audio destiny. And an extra measure to you, Bruinsrme, for seeing beyond the hype of fixing room acoustics like fixing a cat... by cutting off the main flow of the rear action. Here's hoping that someone with a severely cramped or otherwise acoustically challenged room will gain from buying your surplus side sprayers... until they too can have a room equal to the Klipsch monopole task of excellence. -HornEd PS: This message is intended to negate sales tracts that purport the state of the art of audio engineering is to alter every sound over 2000 Hz coming from the rear array. It is recommended that HornEd posts not be read by die-hard fans of the Bloody Tide of Garbled Rear Emanations. Life may be a gas but passing it as engineering excellence is truly odious!

Ah, sweet sawdust and unvarnished objectivity... Q-man you are of the questioning "why not" spirit that made the late PWK a fully horn-LAUDed wizard. With such attention to innovation without losing detail, is it any wonder that you, Q-man, are not only my hero... but the hero of so many would be Klipsch enhancers. While the artful science of sound is profound enough to require pro considerations in slicing and dicing production models... mainstream marketing requires mainstream engineering... and that doesn't always fit your acoustic needs... or mine... and all the others who have retrofitted the "Joy of Klipsch" to their own ears... and to the higher quality audio that lurks within today's audio media. There's more to bass fishing than twisting audio knobs... -HornEd

For more answers than questions, can all us Klipschers head to Best Buy in Reno, NV, and get the straight kenratboy scoop? Can we tip? Can we congratulate you on becoming a genuine Klipsch owner? Can we come by and see what the real kenratboy is up close and personal? Best of all, may all the wind in your sales be horn-loaded! -HornEd

Ah, yes, that I understand... but what I was looking for was the nostalgia of what kind of deals could be struck in the trade. Andy has reminisced about some that were hilarious... and I thought you might disclose a "swap my chicken-63-Corvette for your Klipschorn allotment" story or two. -HornEd

Sorry, cj, but there is no way that a KLF-C7 can keep up with a pair of KLF-20's... particularly if this rig is used for DVD movies. I've been there and done that with KLF-10's, 20's, and 30's... and nothing will be as good as a KLF-20 if you have KLF-20 mains!!! Upwards of 75% of the TOTAL sound of a DVD comes through the center channel... if you want proof in your own listening environment, just set your receiver to a phantom center and situate yourself in the absolute center of your particular sweet spot. Your sound at that ideal location will be far better than that which you will experience with the KLF-C7. In fact, it is my understanding that the engineers who did the KLF series (who haven't worked for Klipsch for many years) did not design the C7 but rather it was pressed into service to fill a design gap. I use a pair of KLF-C7's as Front Effects speakers in my 8 Legend Theater... so I do have a respect for them. Your best surrounds for a KLF-20 front array are KLF-20 rears. I have tried using KLF-10 rears for a KLF-30 front array... but as good as they sound, the timbre-match is far less than having six of the same speakers all the way around. Of course, I "horizontalized" the center and rear array speakers. If you are pressed for space, using KLF-C7's (mounted horizontally) for the rear array will do quite nicely since timbre-matching is less critical on these channels. But... for the KLF purist... nothing really does the job like identical speakers all the way around! And, yes, Avman, they even beat the quasi-Legendary KSP-S6... particularly when mounted in the standard way rather than in the way that works in your unusually fine home theater. -HornEd

Max, that looks like a very interesting device. Is there a web site with more detail? Is the manufacturer related in anyway to the famous flautist of the same name who initiated casting flutes of precious metal with a precise conic section to focus sound waves across the holes? -HornEd PS: Or has my aging memory failed me once again?

Hmmm, Max, it is good to see you made this post after April first! Then again, considering your stock phrase on the bottom of your current posts... who can we trust? -HornEd PS: I am not familiar with a Greek April Fool's custom like I have found in Western Europe or the USA. Any comment?

Gil, now that it is April 2nd, please be advised that that was one of the most charming "dis"ortations that I have heard in a long while. Thanks for making "Poissons D'Avril" work in the Klipsch backwaters with a McDermott spin casting reel-to-real approach. -HornEd

Hey, Rivervalleymgb... How about giving us some ideas of what you meant by "trade" for new Klipsch speakers... that's sure to get Andy going... and we all benefit when Andy trips to his Klipsch experience. -HornEd PS: Andy, I have been too otherwise occupied to get back to you but I will soon.

Ah, the "Rising of the m00n" to tell it like it is. The "Rising of the Moon" was an Irish protest song during the English occupation of the entire Emerald Isle. And, now, our own m00n is rising to protest Forum folks need to pay retail. I have bought dozens of Klipsch speakers from Good Guys... they know me as someone with the capacity to pay cash if they make what I consider a good deal. I know that I have bought new Klipsch speakers from an authorized dealer and, thus, support the Klipsch company with my loyalty... and my ears with my preferred horn loaded sound. I have also bought dozens of Klipsch speakers... particularly Heritage speakers from members of the Klipsch Forum. In every case on the Forum I have received great prices, honest communications and gotten to know people who care about the speakers I care about. I have also bought on eBay... enough said. -HornEd

Well spoken Beesley! The "Joy of Klipsch" that we all know and love is in the detail and naturalness that greets our ears... especially the unforgiving horns of PWK... and its best with the equipment, source and room that Klipsch loudspeakers deserve. The "Misery of Klipsch" that we all know and abhor is in the detail and unnaturalness that greets our ears... especially the unforgiving horns of PWK... when less than the best inferior equipment, source and room that Klipsch loudspeakers do not deserve. May you find the "Joy" now that you know it exists... -HornEd

Hmmm, neo33, five NEW Klipschorns!!! I'm stuck using six OLD Klipschorns... err ah or maybe I missed something in your five based matrix... why use only 5 in a 6.1 world? Should I dump the sixth Khorn? -HornEd

Awk ... first time I ever felt like I just got full m00ned by a LaScala! -HornEd

Rats, fini, clipped and shorn, beer battered rats!!! If I knew you were at Harry's Hoffbrau in San Jose, I would have bought the brew... and sandwiches too! Great unloading of some fine hand-rubbed cornwallians! Did he notice the indentation on the veneer where you formerly kept stroking them? Such a groove thing. Congrats on a great leap toward Khorns funding!!! Have you thought of building "false walls" in the middle of the room to avoid digging the books out of the corners? You could display the family school-art collection on the backside. Any thoughts as to when the fini factoids of Khorn vs. Cornwall ear-satz opinions from assorted fini hits & his mrs.? -HornEd

JD (Doug), no offense taken... having done some "rubber room" realization as a neuropsychiatric stint in environmental structuring in the Army Medical Corps... your earlier comment hit "home" in more ways than one. In effect, building a better audio environment includes parameters of environmental structuring from a psychological perspective... for the ultimate processor of SPL's is the psychoacoustic processor we call a brain. While saving a few thou is always an enjoyable prospect, my fear of loss does not outweigh my prospect of gain. I already know that a circular theater can be exquisite using KLF-30's and SVS Ultras using non-reflective audio "transparent walls" for lower frequencies. So, how does one construct a variable audio transparency and soak up extraneous sounds as to not pollute the neighborhood? It may be impractical to try but I have spent enough decades on practical things that I can afford to experience the agony of defeat for a glimpse of personally satisfying audio glory. And, for the record, Doug, the evidence Ive found on the Internet favors your initial opinion and I do appreciate your pointing that out to me. At the risk of crossing the line from therapist to patient my curiosity lures me on with ominous catlike potential. HornEd PS: The latest cats meow is exploring the audio benefit of a shaped theater floor. PPS: Some of this discussion has occurred in the "Round Room" thread started by Artto on the Architectural end of the Forum.

Rob, last year Q-man and I exchanged ideas on building rooms to suit a multiple K-horn configuration. That's when he sent me a packet of sketches including the one you mentioned. Q-man is my hero not only because he has the guts and WAF going for him... but also he has a work ethic and penchant for fine craftsmanship that few can equal. There is no way that the Q-man would tell you anything that he didn't absolutely believe without an appropriate disclaimer. He is the kind of person that makes this Forum a cut above the rest. That being said, your last reply was most interesting. You said (in part): "What if the walls are transparent? Well, if they are perfectly transparent while the outside if perfectly absorbent... the shape of the transparent wall will have no effect on the sound... because acoustically inexistent. Ive been in anechoic chambers, and although they can be great places to meditate... they are very discomforting in terms of sound. Reflections are an important part of sound." As far out as it may seem, I was able to test your transparent/absorbent concept last summer... and have continued the experiment to this day. I placed six KLF-30's in a 30' circular yurt. The yurt walls have an open lattice work of wood and vertical studs spaced 18"-24" apart. From a height of about 5'6", stud rafters create a conic segment roof with a small Plexiglas dome at the top. A multi-layered insulated fabric forms a skin over the entire structure. The wood floor is on a pier and beam foundation and covered with carpet. In effect, this structure lends itself to a remarkable acoustic feat... their are enough reflective surfaces to create additional ambiance in the high and mid frequencies... but the lower frequencies that create axial wave problems flow through the thin walls to be absorbed in the surrounding forest. I cannot recall hearing a more perfect listening environment for 5.1 (or above) mastered DVD's... and the "sweet spot" is the largest I have ever encountered. There is, however, one bad place to sit... and that is in the very center of this circular room. After considering many factors, I believe the problem is the Plexiglas dome that further concentrates reflected sound and focuses it in a narrow 3' circle at ear level (when seated). Since the KLF-30s are rear ported, reflector panels have been installed to reflect energy toward the sweet spot. It should be noted that a pair of KLF-C7s function as Front Effects speakers and they are situated 5 high on the curved wall approximately 5 on either side of the Left and Right Mains. The Left, Center, Right Mains are located across a straight line with the front of the big screen. This allows a seamless transition to the side/surrounds that are located horizontally on the rear curved wall just behind the midpoint of the room. The sixth speaker is on the curved wall directly across from the screen. The double inversely stacked SVS Ultras stand in a custom false corner and provide all the bass below 85 Hz with no standing waves since the structure walls appear transparent to their bottom scraping potential. No boom, no doubling or canceling nodes, just pure, joyful, natural bass! Tom Vodhanel would be proud! So, why build another HT environment? Simple, as good as this theater is for those inside enjoying all the absorption of those great low bass effects is in the great outdoors and that amounts to sound pollution of the forest. So, my quest is to duplicate the benefits of the theater yurt in a containment structure that would not leak appreciable sound to the outside world. Dr. Floyd E. Toole speculates in his White Paper on the subject that to build such a structure, an additional 20% in every direction would have to be added to the structure to absorb sound. I am ready, willing and able to add that 20%... the question now is what form that 20% should take?... particularly in the shape of the roof. In effect, the Klipsch engineers have treated sounds above and below 2000 Hz differently in their WDST approach. In terms of the center of the sweet spot, frequencies above have been decoupled from the normal ear comparison of direct sound and reflected sound. All sound in the higher frequencies is reflected for a diffuse (non-directional) artificial effect and only the lower frequencies strike the ear in a normal way. In the yurt theater, higher sounds reflect from the thin walls and lower sounds pass through to use the world as a bass trap. So, practical experience has shown that a 30 circular room with identical monopoles and an adequate subwoofer array provides an audio experience that is of a very high order. What started as a temporary use of an existing little used structure while a proper rectangular building was to be constructed has become the focal point of a debate about the realities of structural ideals in multi-channel sound. Essentially, if I can duplicate the dynamics of the yurt theater with a double walled structure (solid wall, absorbent material, multi-layered fabric wall with no rigid structural link between the two walls great things may happen. In the worst case scenario, it could become a great place to grow exotic mushrooms! -HornEd

Thanks for your reply Artto. Dr. Toole's paper (to which I had referred) is available at: http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_3.pdf As you probably know, he is probably the most highly regarded authority on acoustic and psychoacoustic principles alive today. An Englishman, he worked for the Canadian government for decades until he was lured into an upper management position with Harmon Industries. Actually, I was introduced to Dr. Tooles work by an upper echelon Klipsch executive. Actually, Dr. Toole has a whole series of White Papers available at: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default should you find them of interest. As a retired person with a desire to keep my mind more alive than my body has been lately, the challenge of building a fully horn-loaded 6.1 system with above average acoustic potential is a source of great joy. The 6.1 system that I built using six KLF-30s with reformatted motorboards to achieve better timber-matching and, thus, a clearer approximation of reality was to help my nonagenarian mother fight dementia. Each morning she starts her day with a lively, thought provoking, positively oriented DVD. This audio/video stimulation tends to kick-start her day and she has now had five happy years with this stimulation recovered from a severe hip fracture and still walks a mile and half a day at 95. The important thing is that the custom theater became a therapeutic environment that actually raised some areas of her cognition much to the surprise of her physicians. I know that my exploration of a sound system may be impractical by most peoples standards, but I do have the location, the resources and the staff to build any kind of theater my heart desires. For years I have used home theaters I have built to entertain employees, their families and even children in the neighborhood. Now I own a private community and desire to create something that can enrich their lives. I have been a philanthropist for more than a decade now (please I have enough on my plate so lurkers to this thread need not apply) but I still like to have fun and share it along with other resources. Again, I appreciate your comments Artto and trust that as I go along with this project you will have the opportunity to follow its success or failure. I have received numerous emails about talking to you if I am doing something beyond the acoustic ordinary so, clearly, you have many Forum friends that hold you in high regard. I look forward to being one of them. -HornEd