HornEd

Oops, check signals Jan... before you lay a bunt down in the attempt to reach home basse! (Oh Oh, that's probably not the best known baseball cliché in Norway) I will agree that in tough acoustic situations, such as the one described, that RS-7's can rescue the room by spraying frequencies above 2,000 Hz to bounce off anything they can hit to fill your ears with "second-hand" sound* with only frequencies under 2,000 Hz directed toward your ears. Frankly "speakering"... there is no way that an RS-7 can match the timbre and quality of an RC-7 if you are using RF-7's as mains. When it comes to sounding off with Klipsch Reference, it's best to shoot the m00n... put three RF-7's across the front as m00n did. You will hear a difference so profound that it will far outweigh whatever you put in the rear array in terms of 6.1 DVD satisfaction. The main problem most people find with monopole (such as RF-7 or RC-7) rear arrays is that they fail to set them up correctly and, thus, are not pleased. A similar thing occurs when people buy the mighty Klipschorn and stick it in a configuration where it cannot display its acoustic integrity. Despite many claims to the contrary, the human ear cannot process acoustic signals sufficiently (yep, thats how WDST works, it floods your ears with more than you can process so you lose acuity to gain a sense of being overwhelmed whether thats the DVDs audio engineers intent or not) to correctly place (aim) six speakers in a 6.1 system. Considering the money you spend on audio and video equipment, investing a few bucks in an entry level analog SPL meter (like the one at your local Radio Shack analog works better than digital!) and an Avia set-up disk (available on the Internet) will transform many a good performing rig into a great performer! And for those masculine significant other collectors, nothing brings the joy of WAF out more than a properly set-up sound system. Distaff ears are as sensitive as distaff hearts so have a heart and dont trust your love to less than an acoustic SPL meter and a top quality set-up disk (beware of the cheapie set-up disks unless your rose prefers a Bose which is a sure sign your rig is not set-up correctly!). When asking for Forum help on multi-channel speakers, the most important part of an audio system from your ear perspective is the shape, size and reflective characteristics of your listening area. Read the White Papers of Dr. Floyd E. Toole they are relatively easy reading and even have lots of diagrams. Youll find an amazing array of knowledge at http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default with a minimum of hype about the Harmon family of products. Dr. Toole is an Englishman who worked for the Canadian government for decades in acoustic and psychoacoustic research before joining Harmon as loudspeaker czar. The writings of Paul W. Klipsch and Floyd E. Toole have been my guides to reaching beyond the audio salesman on the showroom floor for audio ecstasy! In fact, a charming, intelligent, and beautiful Swiss Miss came into my life and will soon be my wife after first hearing a carefully matched Klipsch 6.1 Home Theater that seats over forty rapt DVD enthusiasts that want more than faux theater sound. (NOTE: Any gender bias perspective is forced upon me by pre-birth natural selection and not by second-hand politically correct sex education. -HE) So, dont be so quick to knee jerk to a cheaper WDST solution when other Klipsch loudspeaker options can do a better rear array job for you and the one(s) you love. There is a reason that a WDST speaker is not available for Heritage quality Home Theaters! Now, if spending less on rear speakers or having a nightmare of an acoustic environment is your lot then WDST makes a better ear prosthetic than bipole or dipole approaches to fuzzing-up artificial ambience in your room. And, lets face it, lots of folks prefer fuzz I can remember when fuzzy dice hanging from a rear view mirror was cool but most of us from that generation grew out of that phase. -HornEd * By "second-hand" sound I mean that WDST speakers are designed to keep sounds over 2000 Hz from reaching your ear directly so that your ear will be flooded with sound that first must strike an object and be reflected to your ear. Reflected sound takes on varied nuances depending upon a wide variety of factors... but due to the speed of sound... most reflections in a typical listening area will reach your ear at about the same time... and that precludes your ear from being able to accurately determine timbre or directional characteristics. Hence, your ears are artificially inundated with sound with bipoles, dipoles, tripoles (i.e., WDST). And, yet, there are times when WDST solutions are practical... like plastic seat covers on a Volvo... somehow such "artificial excellence" doesn't convey the feel of the road to my butt as does natural leather.

Alas, J-Malotky, what would be Jet(som)Setter would have forgotten TheEar(s) rendition in the "Forum Family at Sea"??? And where, oh where, can our little clu be BBB? -HornEd PS: JM, your Heritage signature doth intrigue... but thy system profile doth reveal not! Pray tell, wilt thee sate thy fellow Heritage Monopolecats with thine own noble Klipsch litany?

m00n, I think what the Avman is saying that using a WDST speaker like it was a two-faced monopole is possible if you can have two of its speaker faces facing the audience. BTW, it's quite possible that you could make a 6.1 system with three RF-7's in the front array and three RC-7's in the rear array. Hey, I have to take a break... I worked all night on legal stuff... and won another major battle in court today. A little fuzzy... so I'm gonna take a power nap... and catch you on the flip side.

Hold on, maxg, while fini may "know the way to San Jose"... he's still experimenting with that "Kh-WDST" sound... he has the Khorns away from the wall bouncing his Khorn bass bin renderings off of the walls with only the midrange and tweeter horns aimed at the sweet spot! -HornEd PS: Actually, he has a pile of books to go through before he can free up his "corner" library fixation. PPS: Great gesture Allan Songer... for a grate jester fini! (Je ne suis pas fini, fini!)

Good morning m00n! Just dropped in this thread to see how "surrounded" you have become. While it is true that your HK can knock out 7.1... two of those channels, left rear effects and right rear effects are actually one discrete source or exactly the same as the sixth channel of a 6.1 system. Most DVD's are 5.1 (as detailed below). For 6.1 generated from a receiver, the Rear Array channels are blended in a special way that creates a discrete Rear Effects channel. In 6.1 DVDs all six full-range channels plus low bass are available as mixed by the movies audio engineer. SIDE NOTE: Just to confuse things, in my theater rigs, I use a pair of Front Effects speakers that create two extra channels placed higher up the wall and to either side of the standard front array. IMHO, this creates a wider sound stage and an ethereal quality to sci-fi and wide-open spaces scenes. These effects speakers can be turned on or off depending on the fare... generally I leave them on. Their discrete content is derived from the respective Left and Right Mains. But I digress... and while I might but though I may be sticking a Klipschfoot in a m00n mouth, here goes: In a two-channel 2.0 DVD, there are two discrete, full-range MONAURAL channels, Left Main and Right Main, which when broadcast from two separate speakers create a STEREO effect as if you were listening to something actually taking place in FRONT of you.. In a multi-channel 5.1 DVD, there are five discrete, full-range MONAURAL channels, Front Array: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main; Rear Array: Left Surround and Right Surround Subwoofer Array: Low Bass (the .1 channel only very expensive subwoofers can recreate the entire Dolby Digital DVD low bass which requires a subwoofer array hit 121.5 dB @ 20 Hz ). When broadcast from five separate speakers and a subwoofer, creates a circle of sound as if you were listening to something that was taking place ALL AROUND you. As indicated, a sixth channel fills in the gap between the Side/Surround speakers in the area where hearing is least sensitive directly behind you. 7.1 just puts two speakers in this hard-to-hear area playing from the same sixth channel source. The extra speaker helps when the listening area is extra wide say 18 or more. In my experience, filling an 18 wide room with one quality monopole speaker is quite adequate. The same can be said for a 30 circular room! Since WDST speakers are designed to bounce sound above 2,000 Hz off of adjacent walls with only sounds below 2,000 Hz being broadcast toward the sweet spot the effect of putting an RS-7 on the rear wall is to spray the sidewalls with high mid and high frequencies while instead of a full-range sound from the rear wall, only low mid and high bass frequencies will appear to come from there. So sound would be bouncing off the same side walls competing with your Side/Surrounds! If your Side/Surround is an RC-7, its sound is going to be far superior than the reflected high range from a rear mounted RS-7. It follows, therefore, that an RC-7 mounted on the rear wall would provide a full-range, more accurately detailed sound from the direction of the back wall just like an audio engineer would anticipate in a quality movie theater. The Wayne Lucas experimental standard, THX, advocated the use of dipoles (bipole speakers wired out-of-phase and aimed to bounce front wall and rear wall deliberately confusing the ear as to the timbre and directionality of the sound. The effect is to immerse the audience in a diffuse sound. Obviously, if that is what is needed for a given storyline, the audio engineer mixing a DVD can mix in the proper amount of ambience in any or all of the five (or six in 6.1 or 7.1) discrete channels. Having dipoles as surrounds forces EVERY sound broadcast from them to flood your ears even if that destroys the effect intended by the DVDs audio mix! Well, Forum Friends, its 1 a.m. in the Santa Cruz Mountains and I have a legal brief to write before the sun comes up. I am in my mountain den listening to 6.1 jazz in a fully-loaded horn environment thanks to PWK and the good fortune to understand the joy of monopole multi-channel DVDs and music. HornEd PS: For those who care about such things... like the Bar Assn., I am not an attorney, but I do write legal briefs from my perspective for the attorneys that represent my holdings or my views on broader social issues. For about ten years, my full time occupation has been that of a philanthropist spreading joy, education and understanding to those who can best use it. But, hold your cards and letters, my philanthropic pursuits for the next decade are already committed and not being licensed to practice law, I dont give legal advice to others. But I will give this advice to the Klipsch minions on this Forum, Thanks for returning the use of the Two Channel Forum back to us. May we all use it more wisely than we have. Except as it applies to you (expletive deleted)!

I figure a Fish ought to know... but I'm gonna treat it with a tried and true French Prenuptial Remedy, ice DHMO down, toss in a shot of Pernod and put on a sensual CD of Ravel's Bolero*... and, err well, I dont want to be a pig about it butthhattss all fffolks! (curtain pulled) -HornEd PS: Ravel's Bolero was first performed at the Paris Opera House... where it was booed off the stage! Frankly, I PREFER to do it with Klipschorns!

m00n, sorry for not being more specific. As I recall, your room is just over ten feet wide... and twenty something feet long. One RC-7 on the shelf in the middle of the back wall will handle all the sixth channel feed you need. I would put two RC-7's on each long wall (four RC-7's all together). Place the RC-7's so that the a line extending the angle of the woofer cones intersect at the edge of the seating area. Then set up the 5 RC-7 speakers with an SPL meter so they all sound the same from the middle of your sweet spot. What I am suggesting is what commercial theaters do with long and narrow seating. They place horizontally oriented speakers along the wall facing the opposite side. Think of the cone speakers as if they were flashlights. The light they would shine would spread out (just as sound does from the speakers). Imagine where the light would combine with he light from the next speaker. The ideal height for your theater will probably be about 5'. This should provide a sweet spot pattern that gets the most of programmed ambience in modern DVD's. I have set up Home Theaters in just this way and had great success every time. I've got to run now, but I will try to check in later. -HornEd

While popping a fresh batch of carb enhanced theater popcorn in a real theater popcorn popper... I had an attack of "m00nEARvisi0ns." I trust, friend m00n, that you were setting up your RC-7 surrounds with an SPL meter. Also, having the rear RS-7's hot in the test sends additional frequencies over 2,000 Hz bouncing off the sidewalls. As narrow as your room is, it is unlikely that you need two rear speakers of any kind when one good RC-7 would do. As long and narrow as your room is, you would likely do best by having two RC-7's on each wall. The horizontal positioning and the spread of the woofers should do the job. Essentially, that would put your theater in the most common configuration for a commercial theater. Just as your RF-7 center makes your movies come alive... five RC-7's should make your ambience be as smooth, crisp, and honest a sound as the audio engineer who mastered the DVD intended. Hey, I realize that a rear array of five RC-7's isn't cheap... just like having an RF-7 for a front center isn't cheap... but m00n... giving a chance for the sound that the mixing engineer intended you to hear to be what you hear can be so rewarding. Just like Klipsch speakers tend to be more revealing of both good and bad DVD's... properly set up all monopole configurations reveal great fully ambient, fully dramatic DVD's... and coldly display the shortcomings of the average. More later... duty calls. -HornEd

Oui, mon ami, mais... only if you have a large room. A vertical midrange horn will tend to center the sound in the screen... and for a center speaker... that's a good thing for a smaller room. -HornEd

buy! buy!! fini!!! I'll be glad to motor up your way and pay the $99 (plus fini tax)... and even introduce you to my Swiss Miss in person! I would like to try them as Front Effects speakers on my latest six Khorn Home Theater. -HornEd Oops, check signals EDit post... and be sure to pick up the next "real" Folded Horn University pair that you find in the local barn sale for $99. Sorry, fini, I thought you may have had something to challenge your WAF rating this time! -H.E.

I think you understand the basic timbre matching and full-range discrete multi-channel concept very well, doudou. My comment was that a horizontalized floor standing speaker as a center generally produces a quality of movie sound that bookshelf speakers cannot attain due to the differnce in cubic inches (or centimeters as you prefer). Frankly, on most of the HT's that I build, I limit the multi-channel speakers to frequencies above about 85 Hz. Not having to make the long excursions for low notes gives the speakers a much better potential to handle fast music in the midrange... and the difference in timbre matching between floor standing and elevated horizontal speakers is minimalized when frequencies below 85 Hz are produced by the sub. Frequencies below 85 Hz are better produced by a quality subwoofer, IMHO. -HornEd

Happy K-anniversary... may your member grow ever longer! And thanks for being the venue for the Klipsch Little Rockathon! -HornEd

Whew... I was afraid you guys were going to nail me for having the longest member posts over the last few years... -HornEd Tripod, enjoyed the BBB interpretation of your "Give Piece A Chance" avatar.

D'accord mon ami doudou... easier... and cheaper... but not necessarily better. -HornEd

Ear, I have a penchant for building more systems rather than being content to add on to just one. The "old" Legend Theater is still pumping out audio for forty or so folks at a time in its own free standing 30' yurt that is entirely free of standing waves due to the hybrid fabric walls over a lattice like 2x4 frame. I did boost the power (in a CROWNing achievement) to the dual Ultra stack to 1,000 watts each. My current project is a 6.1 all Klipschorn front and rear array (with a pair of Belles as front effects) that will use a custom designed, fully horn-loaded, subterranean subwoofer that will be dug out of very rocky soil, shaped with rebar and finished with gunite when the new pool and 250 sq. ft. hot tub is sprayed this spring or early summer. The custom six ninety degree corner room will be built atop the sub. Your comments on design ingredients would be most welcome. Start an over-the-top... er, under-the-bottom... Powered Subwoofer thread if you like, my Canadian bass catcher friend. -HornEd

Just got a few minutes for this, jephdood, but if you are setting up a Home Theater it follows that DVD's will be your prime source. If so, it makes sense to look at the audio characteristics of current and future DVD audio engineering. A Dolby Digital DVD can produce sounds as forceful as 121.5 dB at 20 Hz now thats very, very LOUD!!! But, many natural sounds have components that reach high levels for a fraction of a second not long enough for you to be aware of how really loud it was but long enough to register the sound as being natural. Thus, the true bass gap is between 121.5 dB @ 20 Hz and however low your subwoofer scrapes. The common practice for audio mixers of DVDs is to put upwards of 75% of the TOTAL audio on the front center track. Why would anyone want their center speaker to be anything less than the best speaker in their rig? Sadly, the answer is that they want something small that will go on top of their TV. If you are one of the wimpy center speaker crowd (as recommended by most audio manufacturers), pick you favorite DVD movie and play it through your rig with your receiver set to a phantom center (where the left and right mains simulate your having a center that isnt there). Then you must sit exactly in the center of the audio sweet spot in your listening area. Play the DVD. Now you will get a better idea of what a center that matches your left and right mains would sound like. Of course, having something in the center that truly meets the quality of your left and right mains broadens the effect over a much larger area. Not only do I put my money where my mouth is I put my best speaker where the action is in the front center! And beware, Forum Friends, of the timbre-match myth that audio sales tracks use to pitch grossly dissimilar speakers as timbre matched timbre is essentially the voice characteristics of a speaker. Any differences in speaker design can cause a difference in timbre between one speaker to the next. Positioning and the resulting acoustic variances in a particular listening area will vary the timbre of identical speakers mounted in a 5.1 (or above) configuration. Lets face it it is very difficult to design a speaker for the center that has half the cubic inches (and, perhaps, no porting) that the main speakers have. Play some pink noise on your rig and set it to rotate the sound around your system. Listen as the sound moves from speaker to speaker do you hear it the same continues sound? Of course not, your rig isnt quite as timbre matched as it was cracked up to be! Is it true that there is far less material sent to the surrounds and rear speakers? Yes, indeed! In a 5.1 DVD, there are only two discrete channels in the rear array the left and right surrounds. In a 6.1 DVD (Gladiator was the first for DTS), there is an extra discrete channel for the rear center. Most better quality receivers derive a unique sixth channel from extracting audio characteristics from the left and right discrete surround channels. And 7.1 is sort of a marketing ploy since it does not add another discrete channel but rather splits the sixth channel into two identical channels. Unlike rear channels in the ProLogic era, all five (or six) discrete channels on a DVD are full-range. That means that bipole, dipole or tripole (WDST) speakers are no longer needed to create an artificial illusion of ambience. Audio engineers can now mix as much "ambient" sound characteristics in these full-range audio tracts to create the audio illusion necessary for the movie story line. Many times this consists of background or mood music... something that sounds a whole lot better on full range monopoles that match the front array... at least IMHO! The purpose of a 7.1 rig is to accommodate very large rooms by putting an extra rear center speaker a way to sell speakers but rarely needed in most situations. And remember, the rear center probably gets less sound directed to it than any other speaker and some manufactures suggest that you ought to have two usually wimpy rear centers with little audio action and one wimpy front center that has to deliver to your ears over 75% of the action!!! Its the sort of phenomenon that makes one look up the true meaning of the word incredible. HornEd

Now, Colin, now what kind of female audio enthusiast is going to pause in tube rolling long enough to investigate a post entitled "Softest member"? -HornEd PS: At least you'll get a few responses from those among us looking to avert performance anxiety.

Check your email, Andy, I'm hootin' in your holler! -HornEd

Take heart... photography has gone digital... and the essence of digital photography is the black and white underpinnings that are revealed when you strip the color information away. Not mastering black and white is a sure way not to master digital color. And take an extra helping heart... an open ended room can have "true" sound in "false" corners hugging rear Khorns. Hmm, six Klipschorns in one room carefully cornered room... and the lure of a totally tubular "Colin-ization"... life IS great! -HornEd

Sure like to send a round of applause about the way youre stacked! I happen to be a double-cornered Ultra fan from the first batch. I like the way bottom scraping bass provides a pedestal for my Klipsch Horn Herd. -HornEd PS: The Tom-Tom effect has allowed me to Vodhanel my bass instincts adroitly.

That's why you ARE my hero, Q-man! If I must hang for my sound preferences, I'd rather hang by my ears... for eye wash isn't a sound experience. Then again, the exterior finish of a Q-man built speaker enclosure shows he's a smooth (wet sanded) operator! -HornEd

Well said John... but, since this IS an audio Forum... I just can't see you as one of the "Supremes" even in your finest do-whap do! But I can see "Here come da judge" in your supremely worded post appearances. On the other hand... are four fingers and a thumb in the eyes of the beholders of sub-Bose prose. Klipsch rules... and your conscientious presence on this Forum (along with your conscientious detractors) is a reason why. -HornEd

So, Trey says, "The day that fini goes two-channel Klipschorn there's no telling what he might post... I mean if he goes "cornerless" Klipschorn how will we handle the bandwidth surge of thousands of WAF compliers that have been committed to cornered Klipschorns." And, just as reality in a minor key sinks in... )))blip((( ... Two-Channel takes a dive... let's hope it's not for the count! Oh br0ther m00n, wear a hat so your dome reflections lessen the lunacy of two-channel addicts with nary a fix in sight. =HornEd PS: Henry... we will miss the products of the Watkins line... and you will miss the twit-wit of what promises to be vintage fini stuff. Actually, the Watkins truck used to stop by our door in my youth... the big product was pure vanilla and my mother was a "Watkins Addict"... well at least according to my frugal father reviewing household expenses. Ah, but you are so much more than "plain vanilla" in your observations, Henry, so do "hang" in there with the rest of us convicted "poster roasters" while Trey fashions a bit more rope.

Having been a part of this Forum for a few years, having dealt with Trey Cannon directly, and being a retired corporate executive... I find the hopefully temporary closure of one part of the board to be reasonable. Sure, I understand the "why blame the many for the few"... but I also know that in being fair that you have indeed identified the few to punish becomes a whole new order of magnitude that someone has to deal with. As I understand the Klipsch hosting of this Forum, the primary drudgery of keeping tabs of what's happening is done by volunteer hours of interested Klipsch personnel. So far, this Forum has been one of the most entertaining and informative I've hit on the net. And I, for one, would like to see it continue with the self-discipline exhibited by most posters. I think we all get bent out of shape from time-to-time and maybe react in a way that is none too cool... but that's life in the big playground of adult audio toys. And, just like a kindergarten playground, sometimes the playground monitor has to give us hot tempered kids a little "timeout" so that all can be a bit introspective of our own behavior to balance our righteous indignation toward the behavior of others... even to the playground monitors themselves. Two-Channel has historically been one of the keenest & coolest of them all... with several clearly opinionated stars hung around a laid back m00n... Superman Trey has only so much Forum Cape time in his busy day. Instead of biting the hand that feeds the Forum, let's cut the Klipsch Minions some slack... as they have cut us so that we may continue to build a better Forum... while the paid hours of Klipsch Minions are put to building better loudspeakers and a service network to support them. Besides, without the Forum, where would I go to have *2* haunt & taunt me? -HornEd

I don't know about changing tides and science... but I do know about changing diapers and mRs. m00n! Wash your hands before you type a reply -HornEd PS: Hmm, maybe changing Tides is in your future... like changing unscented Tide for perfumed Tide when the m00n rises to the laundry challenge? PPS: If memory serves, these are not flamers, but mere extrapolations of previous m00n posts. PPPS: Your alarm has been duly raised, cluless. Do you think that m00n is really a Purple People Eater from an alien saucer who's pilot was into his cups... and DUI'd into a football field in the darkest reaches of Minnesota?