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Delicious2

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Posts posted by Delicious2


  1. On 12/11/2020 at 2:35 PM, Chris A said:

    ...I recently re-dialed in my setup...

     

    Off-topic warning. I would like to do the same on my setup which is similar to yours Chris.  You've been very generous with your time and expertise in recent years helping me dial in various 2 and 3 way combos.  I wonder if you've already written or have an outline of steps to tuneup the whole 5.1 system?  A PM, or link to already existing post/thread would be appreciated.  I'd like to get my system not only sounding its best but even more following the trail you're blazing with yours.  I could also start my own thread with my attempt at an outline which we could discuss.

    • Like 1

  2. 21 minutes ago, Chris A said:

    In the example that I posted above, it's clear that what's being done by different pieces of gear is not equivalent, although they're advertised as being equivalent. I hear those differences, and I don't usually like the synthesized implementations of 2-->5 channel that AVPs/AVRs use.  Finding out what they're actually doing is usually a lot more difficult than just listening to the results and judging for yourself if it is better or worse. 

     

    I think the reason why some of the folks on this forum still use PWK's method, and not because it's necessarily superior, but because it's a user-controllable and known process, even though it may significantly narrow the apparent stereo soundstage.  If you set the loudspeakers along the long wall of an oblong/rectangular room, then the loss in apparent soundstage width isn't noticed as much.  I think PWK knew what he was doing in 1959 when he published the article on 3 channels from 2 channel channel sources.  He had also apparently experienced using the Bell Labs setup that was pioneered perhaps 15-20 year earlier, and he understood the pros/cons of what he was proposing.  I'm not sure about the synthesized modes that we get today in our AVPs/AVRs. 

     

    Nowadays, you get the algorithms in canned fashion with bells and whistles that you didn't ask for put in, ostensibly because someone in marketing though it sounded "better than the competition" (probably using questionable recordings in the first place to make their judgments). 

     

    JRiver seems to have a better handle on things in terms of the signal processing for psychoacoustical effects, but I can't say that I have first-hand experience listening to what they've done, and I certainly don't know what they've actually implemented.

     

    Caveat emptor applies..."let the buyer beware".

     

    Chris

     

    In your example I find it odd that a low-pass filter would be applied to the center and surrounds.  Wouldn't they more likely get a high-pass because they might not be very capable down low?

    I agree I tend to prefer a "user-controllable and known process".  To that end I may try some 2 to 5 channel configurations in my Xilica 4080 MiniDSP setup since I could have at least rudimentary if static control over channel routing/mixing, level, phase, delay, and high-pass/low-pass. 

    • Like 1

  3. 13 hours ago, Chris A said:

    You can read about a likely implementation of your Yamaha AVR here: https://www.aes.org/journal/sample_issue/JAES_V50_11_PG914.pdf

     

    It's not a simple answer if you're using a synthesized 3.1 mode. 

     

    Chris

    I read through that as best I could, unlike Pondoro having no understanding of the math I also don't understand the testing procedures or statistical analyses.  I was looking for the word "Yamaha" and/or some clue as to how they implemented their algorithm so I might try to replicate the results or at least hear what they were getting at.  The only bit I could find is that they used Philips DSS940 speakers.

     

    This article is from 18 years ago but perhaps now there is software that let's one enter some of those equations and play around with audio algorithms...?


  4. Finally got around to replacing a K48 equivalent driver that my FH1s had with a Kappa 15c.  Very surprised how close the drivers are in this horn and not just one horn sample or driver.  Here are the raw measurements in REW.  Red is the K48 driver one FH1 came with and green is that same horn with a new Kappa 15c.  Blue is the other K48 driver in the other horn.   Amazing how close they all are.

    image.thumb.png.5dd19b33f03959263083d29d68e0360c.png

    • Like 1

  5. I've got a MiniDSP 2x4HD on order to use with them instead of the Xilica soon.  It will allow a high pass lower to keep most of the 15-20Hz subsonic goodness that is a primary strength of this horn. Not that I'll feel that very much but for movie LFE I do like to demo the opening of BladeRunner 2049 and Edge of Tomorrow which pressurize and shake the house nicely!  Current amps driving the DTS-10s?  Hypex NC400 monos (from kits) which may be underpowering them a bit at about 400w/4 ohms.


  6. On 9/28/2020 at 4:24 AM, Chris A said:

    I use the backs of the Jubilees to form a triangular mouth extension from the SPUDs to the top of the Jub bass bins. 

     

    The SPUDS are located with their mouths in the room corners closest to the floor, facing toward the back wall of the room.  The each Jub is placed in front of each SPUD, with each Jub bass bin back forming a duct  that is oriented toward the ceiling, with the horn extension being formed by the side wall, the front face of each SPUD, and the back of the Jub bass bin.  This increases the effective length of the SPUD horns from ~21 feet to about ~24 feet.  I get a -3 dB point low frequency response of about 14 Hz, including the flexibility of the side walls/plywood stiffeners and losses due to the undersized horn mouths. 

     

    Below ~80 Hz, there really isn't any directionality of the low frequency response, so the orientation of horn mouths doesn't make any difference if crossing to the subs below that frequency.  The only thing that you'll hear if looking at the horn mouth exit is harmonic distortion at higher frequencies.  Pointing the SPUDs mouths away from the listening position is actually one way to attenuate those harmonics--which is the predominant distortion type with the SPUDs. 

     

    Chris

    Interesting use of the Jube backs to extend the SPUD horn.  This thread and especially that video got me off my butt and integrating the 2 DTS 10s I acquired earlier this year.  Because of my room dimensions the left one works best to the outside of the Jube as a corner extension but the right one may be able to have its mouth in the corner and use your extension trick.  It's been fun breaking out REW and the UMIK-1 again this past week and measuring/seeing  how these 2 monsters behave in my room.

    Two DTS-10s integrated with Jubes - Left.jpg

    Two DTS-10s integrated with Jubes - Right2.jpg

    Two DTS-10s integrated with Jubes - Right.jpg

    • Like 1

  7. For Locomotive Breath I never paid that close attention but now I'll never "unhear" it.  Looks like others report it alright:

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/979988?

     

    and in the Steven Wilson 5.1 surround mix:

     

    https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/jethro-tull-aqualung-blu-ray-audio.15133/page-2

     

    Here's a brief "fair use" excerpt of just the left rear channel of the SW 5.1 remix of Locomotive Breath where I first hear the "distortion" I think we're talking about.  The bass line is very propulsive and on the beat but at about 13 seconds into the excerpt goes from a relatively clean bass tone to a fuzzy, buzzy more distorted one.  Intentional effect after the distorted guitar?

     

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/10TKL-E2NataqKcUf_D34AZK8DkQTZ1QL/view?usp=sharing

     

     

    • Thanks 1

  8. On 7/13/2020 at 6:38 AM, Negatron said:

    The woofers are mounted on the same sides as the original from Chris, but the horn is installed vertically so the woofers are top and bottom instead of side to side. This does change my dispersion degrees. I played them last night with the same settings as the no cabinet version, and it is an entirely different sounding beast now. As soon as my new amp is done I will contact Chris so we can tune this properly. 

    Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

     

     

     

     

     

    Looking good Ron!  No doubt it sounds entirely different than the no cabinet version with the back waves of the woofers enclosed.  What did you do to absorb that back wave?  Line the cabinet with something?

    As far as your partner not liking the large protruding black horn, how about an automotive finish in her favorite color?  Might be easier than trying to get a complementary faux veneer never mind a matching one.

    • Like 1

  9. On 6/26/2020 at 6:14 AM, Chris A said:

     

    ...The reason why La Scala bass bins work so well with AMT-1s (I infer) is the high frequency extension and on-axis SPL response of them goes to at least 1.2 kHz before on-axis SPL begins to succumb to the effects of horn folds and "mass corner" effects of the woofers themselves at high frequencies above 400-500 Hz.   This is due primarily to the full mouth closure of the La Scala bass bins without dual mouth truncation that results in a flat baffle in between the two mouths. The La Scala bass bins fully close the two horn mouths from the "W" section horn into a single horn mouth...

     

    Chris

     

    Hmmm, I'm surprised the Peavey has the narrowing polars you describe since it doesn't have the flat baffle in between the two mouths.


  10. Just ordered a 3/4" BB 5x5 sheet cut in half from Makerstock for $60 and $15 shipping to my home.  It was a bit difficult to place the order as their automated shipping calculator kept saying that the 60x30 or 30x30 pieces I was choosing couldn't be shipped to my address but C.S. Amy helped me out.   Will report how that works out...

    • Like 1

  11. On 5/31/2020 at 9:34 AM, rick mcinnis said:

    As I get to know these horns I am beginning to hear the resonances due, mostly I suspect, nothing attached to the mouth. 

     

    Hmmm, got me wondering.  The K-402 horns are delivered by Klipsch in several arrangements without the mouth attached to anything and in at least one case fully attached and in a box (KPT-305).  Are there significant differences in sound quality due to resonances for unattached mouths?

     

    What is it you are beginning to hear exactly?

     

    It is an appealing idea to my logical mind that the horn would resonate coloring the sound left undamped/not very stiff or rigid and mouth unattached, but, what seems logical ain't necessarily so!

     

    and...even if this could be proved to be the case the question remains at what level of magnitude is it happening - in other words is it audible?

     

    One thing I know in my following of ChrisA over the last years is that  measurements with a calibrated UMIC-1 and REW and the subsequent iterative dialing in of my speakers based on the K-402 makes a huge audible improvement!  So, clearly adjustments based on careful measurement do work.  We can correlate sound which the mic/software measure with what we hear.

     

    I wonder if the UMIC-1/REW combo could measure any resonances of the type postulated?

     

    I propose this test.  Tell me if you think it valid.

     

    Hypothesis:

    The K-402 horn playing midrange and high frequency sound/music with mouth unattached resonates so as to color the sound/music in an audible way. (note that this test will be confined to midrange and high frequencies so that it may be carried out on a K-402/CD combination prior to any MEH mods.)

     

    Setup 1:

    A third generation (thinner) K-402 with TAD-4002 CD will be mounted on its Klipsch stand (attached to mouth at 2 bottom holes only) and placed on top of a Jubilee bass cabinet in a corner of my living room with the bottom of the horn at height of the bass bin - 40 inches. My calibrated UMIC-1 will be mounted on a tripod with mic capsule at 45 degree angle and the tip at height of 54 inches - the middle of the CD at a distance of 3 feet from the horn mouth. Plentiful thick fuzzy absorbent material will be placed on the floor between the horn and the mic.   REW sweeps will then be recorded from 400 - 20k Hz going back and forth several times with ChrisA (if he's willing) to get representative measurements of this combination. Perhaps varying the sweep volume in an attempt to excite measureable resonances in the horn - (not the room.)

     

    Setup2:

    The very same K-402 and TAD-4002 samples mounted in a KPT-305 box (securing the full mouth flange at all 12 factory drilled mounting points)  Keeping other variables of measurement as constant as possible (mic position, dampening placed on floor in front of horn between horn and mic) the same set of sweeps will be recorded.

     

    Analysis:

    The recorded sweeps will be compared looking for differences possibly due to horn resonances.

    • Like 1

  12. 8 hours ago, Negatron said:

    When it comes to the port holes it is pretty tight....just a slim line where they join together. Not noticeable to me at all, especially when you paint the MDF in the ports.

    Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
     

     

    Of course it's not important whether it's "noticeable" or not visually but whether the mount surface and the horn surface have a gap between them that resonates / vibrates at certain frequencies.

    • Like 1

  13. 2 minutes ago, Negatron said:

    I figured the MDF would increase the stiffening. As far as the curve in the horn I believe the construction adhesive was but on thick enough to fill the gap in the curve.

    I mainly did the #3 pieces to avoid drilling into the horn, as I did not want to screw up.

     

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

     

     

     

     

     

    I see what you did there! HaHa😄

     

    so you must have to lay on the silicone pretty thick too on the woofer mounts just to mate the port holes cuts in the mdf to the cuts in the horn wall not too mention not wanting to create a resonating cavity between mount and horn wall.

    • Like 1

  14. Thanks Ron.  Yes, I see looking more closely at your pics that you sanded down the stiffening/strengthening ribs, 2 on each wider side and 1 on each woofer mounting side completely.  Not concerned about loss of strength there?

    Also I measured one of my horns and an Eminence woofer.  The curve in the horn begins on both wider and narrower sides 12" from the input flange - before 12: they are straight flat sides.  Clearly your stiffening #3 boards made out of mdf and your woofer mounts are flat yet extend into the curved area of the horn for the 15" woofer.    So again I ask, what about the curve in the horn?  A flat board cannot lay flat on that curve.  Are you trying to account for that or???  

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