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Delicious2

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    BLEND THEM TOGETHER

    in General Klipsch Info

    Posted

    I'm getting into this at a total room design level with Quest Acoustical Interiors now.  Just started a project with them for design of my HT/2 channel music/multi-channel music room.  Hopefully Shawn Byrne won't mind if I quote our recent email exchange about this question:

     

    I asked: 

    “Whats the difference between designing a HT/surround music/2 channel
    music room and designing a mixing studio? I know part of the answer I
    think but is there a continuum of design decisions that lead in one
    direction or the other. Both are small room acoustic designs but
    perhaps the studio emphasizes clarity and focus of every detail of the
    mix whereas the HT obviously integrates video and emphasizes
    sound-stage and envelopment. Thoughts?”
     
    Shawn replied: 
    "That is partially correct.  The main differences really have to do with setup and goals.  In a home theater, we are focusing on providing a good experience for all listeners.  In a two channel system, we are more focused on a single listener, and in a mixing environment, your more concerned with the near-field.  These don’t mix well together.  However, you can have a great sounding two channel system in a theater, but the design is focused for the enjoyment of all listeners; not just one."
     
    To answer your more basic question, many AVR and AVPs have a "bypass" option that removes all dsp/bass management etc. for pure 2 channel.
    • Like 1

    WTB 1 pair TAD 4002 drivers

    in Garage Sale

    Posted

    "Yep exactly how mine looked too. Well at least as far as the diaphragms go. Wiring may have been a "tad" different:). Definitely different now cuz I replaced the binding posts and wiring"

     

    Got some pics?  Replaced because they failed or some other reason?

    WTB 1 pair TAD 4002 drivers

    in Garage Sale

    Posted

    The 402, BMS, Khorn bass bin combo is sounding huge, and effortless with just these rough settings.  I've got some fun this weekend ahead learning REW enough to get some sweep captures with my UMIK-1 to Chris for analysis.  But first I'm going to try to match amp voltages with a test tone and find a way to check polarity of all the drivers.  In car audio we sometimes talk about electrical polarity distinct from acoustic polarity.  I wonder if that applies to home audio too?  

     

     I've got TAD 4002s arriving from Germany next week to try on these also.  Hope they're the original Beryllium.  I confirmed with the seller they have the "snout" adapters.

    Room acoustics gurus, please step in.........

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Nice looking room.  It's a bit difficult to tell with the camera distortion but the mid horn axis may be crossing far in front of the listeners.  My experience in my similar size room is that won't really sound good or at least up to the Khorn potential.  Consider orienting them along the long wall opposite the fireplace.  That way the mid/tweet axis could cross slightly in front/at the MLP or slightly behind. 

     

    As far as treatments I got a better sound-stage and center image focus by removing everything possible in between the speakers and putting thick soft fabric (bathmats) tacked to the walls on either side of the mid/tweet mouth and on top of the cabinet draped slightly over the top front edge to absorb energy that might bounce off the ceiling.  I put bathmats at the bottom front edge as well but your carpeting should take care of most floor bounce/reflection.

    artto's Klipschorn Room

    in Architectural

    Posted

    Well, I'll take the bump a couple months later.😀.  I've been following your thread and system changes for some time.  While I appreciate that the room and room mods/treatments are a substantial part of what you're doing, I'll probably follow you in that more unfamiliar direction through the more familiar door of speaker changes.

     

    I find myself strongly considering moving from modded Khorn's in my 14x22x8 living room to Jubes or SH-50s. Online comparisons and local dealers have tried to sway me recently to Revel Ultima Salons, JBL M2s or the Meridian powered DSP'd systems but the allure of big horns is strong right now.  I have a chance to borrow one SH-50 from a nearby pro audio place thinking that some mono listening might be enough to tell if they're my cuppa.   I've never heard Jubes or sought them out in the Boston area. 

     

    What's the latest with your journey Art?  Still got the Danleys?

    First Watt SIT-2 / Danley SH 50

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Ivanhoe56 said:

    The Danley SH 50`s have 100 db sensitivity , the Klipschorn 104 db and La Scala `s  104 db , my Pass Labs XP-30 has a volume digital display  read out of  0-100 , with the First Watt SIT-2 I do most of my listening between 65-75 on the XP-30 digital display depending on the recording , and I like to listen at louder levels then most people . The First Watt SIT-2  8 watts are a very powerful 8 watts with  exceptionally controlled  low frequencies , provided it is used with the right kind of high sensitivity  speakers , like horns ( I also have 1/ 200 watt self-powered subwoofer per channel , but they get there signal from the First Watt SIT-2 ) , I feel that I have more then enough power for the Danley Labs SH 50`s  with the First Watt SIT-2   ( My current listening room is 12 feet x 13 feet ) .  The Danley SH 50`s were designed to be used for commercial applications like stadiums , churches , live concerts ( Why they are made to have 1000 watt power rating )  , and not the home audiophile market , but that does not mean that you cannot use them that way . They are not mainstream home audiophile speakers , most audiophiles have never heard of Danley Labs , they are unconventional and advanced new technology that you can only presently get in this way . I am  more satisfied with my new audio set-up then I have ever been before in my audio hobby , and I am a very tough critique  .  According to the Danley  Labs , and First Watt manufacturers websites , the rated output of the Danley SH 50`s is 4 Ohms , and the output impedance of the First Watt SIT-2 is 4 Ohms , the impedance match  might explain why to my ears they seem to work so well together .   

     

    Makes sense that the low wattage would be enough in your small room.  "the rated output of the Danley SH 50's is 4 Ohms" - do you mean the rated input? i.e. it presents nominally 4 Ohms to an amplifier?  In that case yes they may be a good match for that reason.  Frankly, I'm more interested in hearing your subjective impressions of this pair.  Here's a older Stereophile thread on home audio vs. pro audio that starts out in 2008 and gets revived in 2016.  I especially like the comments from ferenc_k:

     

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audiophile-vs-pro-audio-gear-1

     

    "Actually after living with high-end audio equipments for more than 20 years now I am using pro audio at home.

    My last system was Audio Note Kageki, Accuphase DP-100/DC-101, Avantgarde Trio, etc. It was changed to MC2 Audio MC1250 pro amp, Danley 100B (SH 50 as well) PA speaker and a Macbook to Altmann Attraction DAC through a TCElectronic Konnekt 8 as a Firewire to SPDIF converter. All my bloody expensive cables were changed to Evidence Audio pro cables as well, including the mains cable.

    Can not be happier. Does not matter what I play, plays everything from Albinoni to Zappa according to my taste. It has drama and fun, like no system from my personal hifi history.

    The MC2 amps and Danley speakers are true classical, the latter is one of the most exciting speaker construction I know of.

    YMMV of course....

     

    More musical generally. Can play any kind of music, on any volume. Quite friendly to even the modern dynamically very compressed recordings.

    Has more life. Live recordings are really amazing. Dynamics, coherency like nothing else in my life earlier."

     

    This is someone moving from a very high end tube audiophile amp to a class AB high powered pro amp and from a very high end audiophile horn speaker to the SH-50.  Intriguing!

     

    What are your subjective impressions Ivanhoe56?  I'm not looking for flowery language but your description of basic qualities of sound such as "immediacy",  "timbral fidelity",  macro and micro dynamics,  "soundstage" (the whole vista) vs. "imaging"  (focus/realism of players that inhabit that vista) - or any other characteristics you wish. 

    First Watt SIT-2 / Danley SH 50

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted · Edited by Delicious2
    addition

    On 6/6/2018 at 12:57 PM, Ivanhoe56 said:

    I began putting a new High-End system together about 6 months ago , it is now complete and pretty much optimal with everything broken in . I went with the First Watt SIT-2 amp because I thought that either the SIT-1 or SIT-2 would be my idea of the best possible match up with the Danley Labs SH 50`s , I have used only   Single ended tube electronics ( 300b , VT-52 , 2A3 ) for the last 35-40 years , and most of those  years those tube electronics were driving a pair of Klipsch La Scala`s . I also had some Lowther horn speakers ( Hated them )   , and klipschorns  briefly ( I used them in there original state , and later with the Klipsch K-402 horns )  . One of the reasons I wanted to make this post is because I am happier and more satisfied with my audio set up then I have ever been before in the many years of my audio hobby .  I can`t say enough about how much of an amazing amplifier the First Watt SIT-2  is , and how amazing the Danley Sound Labs SH50  speakers are and the synergy between the two . My new audio set-up has exceeded my expectations .  I have included the details of my new audio set-up below . My main area of interest in the audio hobby is the minimalist philosophy with high sensitivity  speakers ( Horns ) and low powered amplifiers ( smallest simplest designs possible are the best sounding ) . I believe that the First Watt SIT-2 would sound amazing with any of the Klipsch  ( Heritage horn ) speakers .  I am planning on putting together a 2nd stereo system in my basement with Klipsch K-402 horns and quarter pies for the lower frequencies in either a 2 way or 3 way set-up and maybe using it for analog with a turntable .  I have included  all the equipment I am using in the new system below .         

     

     

     

     

    Danley Labs SH 50    Speakers                 4 ohms

    First Watt SIT-2           Amplifier                 8 watts into 4 ohms 

    Pass Labs XP-30        Pre-amplifier          Line level  

    MacIntosh MR-71      (Tube) FM-Tuner     Vintage   ( Restored )

    Rel Stadium  III           Sub woofers ( Pair ) 1 per channel         

    APL NWO-Master Universal Transport/DAC ( Esoteric UX-1Pi )          CD Transport and outboard Tube DAC

    I mostly lurk around the forums but had to respond to this.  You and I are on very similar paths and interests!  I have a SIT2 driving my modded Khorns in 2.1 living room system (14'x24'x8').   Before the SIT2 I used Welborne Labs Laurel II 300b monoblocks and VTL Tiny Triode SE PP monoblocks.  I'm shopping for replacement processor, amps, speakers in my basement HT (13x25x7) and am very interested in high efficiency horn designs such as the Danleys,  JBL M2, 4722s and 4367s.  The best thing about the HT audio now is the Danley DTS10 sub 🎼.  I just requested an SH50 demo on the Danley site.  Say more about the simpatico between SH50s and the SIT2.  8 watts wouldn't immediately be my idea of the best match for a speaker that can handle 1000.  

     

    (edit: the K-402 horn is very much in the running too as Jubilees or some Multi-Entry-Horn variant like Chris does - I have yet to hear any form of this coveted horn)

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

     

    There is no diaphragm replacement for the K-55-M.

     

    He's just looking for the gasket.  Does Bob sell them?

     

     

    Just talked with Bob.  He has the exit O-rings but not the larger hard plastic gasket which goes around the diaphragm.  These are not available - thus his instructions to reuse the old one when replacing the K-55-M diaphragm.

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

     

    Happy news and a puzzle.  Thought I'd put the driver back together and hook it up.  Off the horn/adapter lack of distortion was encouraging.  Fully reassembled this Khorn sounds as good as the other one!  I think you're right Carl that the gasket wasn't sealing properly.  Perhaps just reseating it and carefully torquing in a star pattern got the seal back - at least for now.

     

    http://www.critesspeakers.com/rebuilding_a_k-77m.html

     

    Are these gaskets available anywhere if needed?

     

    Any decent hardware store that sells gaskets for garden hoses...

     

     

    I don't think it was the o-ring shaped washer-like rubbery gasket between the driver mouth and the adapter/horn that was causing the issue.  I think it was the hard plastic gasket shown in the photo surrounding the diaphram.  Does anyone sell those?  It'd be interesting to compare a "new" one to these 25 year old ones.

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    Happy news and a puzzle.  Thought I'd put the driver back together and hook it up.  Off the horn/adapter lack of distortion was encouraging.  Fully reassembled this Khorn sounds as good as the other one!  I think you're right Carl that the gasket wasn't sealing properly.  Perhaps just reseating it and carefully torquing in a star pattern got the seal back - at least for now.

     

    As to the hypothesis that this happened because the gasket got old and hard it's interesting that Bob Crites has no problem recommending the reuse of an old gasket when replacing the K-55-M diaphram:

     

    http://www.critesspeakers.com/rebuilding_a_k-77m.html

     

    Are these gaskets available anywhere if needed?

     

    And what about my TAD question?  Could I upgrade to those TD-4002s as a step on the way to eventual k402s?

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    I believe the o-ring they referred to is used where it seals to the horn.  Was there a seal or o-ring there when you took it apart?  Does the other driver have one there?  Has the driver just started doing this or are the speakers new to you?

     

    I'm not seeing much wrong there.  Be sure you clean the gap where the coil goes.  You can use the sticky part of a posted note folded over.

     

    I've had these for several years and I just noticed this one distorting recently.  There is a hard rubber o-ring where the driver threads to the adapter/horn.  The other Khorn has that also.  As noted in the other thread these o-rings partially block/narrow the opening.  Is it beneficial to replace these with o-rings with a larger inner diameter that doesn't narrow the opening?

     

    Thanks for the tip about cleaning the gap.

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted · Edited by Delicious2

    post-41832-0-35480000-1464208355_thumb.jpost-41832-0-57960000-1464208390_thumb.j

     

    thanks, that's an interesting read especially the part about the driver being a "pneumatic device".  I have it opened up and don't see anything clearly wrong around the diaphragm part or the magnet part.  The gasket that joins the two is certainly a hard plastic not soft or compressible at all.  Is this the "driver o-ring" referred to in post #12 of the other thread?

     

    FWIW these are 1990 Khorns.

     

    None of the screws holding it together were loose.

    Distorting K-55-M on Khorn with Eliptrac

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    I've got midrange distortion/buzzing/breakup on one Khorn and not the other.  It's especially noticeable on certain tracks/instruments.

     

    The diagnostic tracks I've been using are:

     

    Bill Douglas' Earth Prayer from The Absolute Sound Hearts of Space collection - the clarinet is highly distorted on many of its notes.

     

    Pat Metheny's This Belongs To You from The Unity Sessions - Metheny's opening guitar playing is very distorted on some notes.

     

    I've pinned it down to the driver by connecting in different ways so I know it's not the driver/adapter/horn combo, not the crossover (ALK universal), and not the amp.  As a final check I swapped the K-55-M driver from the other Khorn to the troublesome one and the distortion went away.

     

    As I see it my options are to:

     

    1. repair defective driver
    2. replace defective driver
    3. replace both midrange drivers with known good K-55-Ms on the assumption that if one has gone bad the other may be going too
    4. replace both midrange drivers with upgrades such as TAD assuming that the Eliptracs and ALK universals can accept this

      Note: I don't want to go to active crossovers at this time.

    Please advise.

    Quick Folding Corner Extensions for Khorn

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    Original corner is just 20" on left side and 27" on the right.  How to extend to 48" without blocking access to the kitchen or bathroom/bedroom.

     

    post-41832-0-44940000-1452884470_thumb.jpost-41832-0-91180000-1452883869_thumb.j

     

    A strip of adhesive backed felt on the bottom lets the hinged sections slide on the bare wood floor.

     

    Now how to anchor them to the wall without marking it up?  At the moment the extensions are just held in place by the Khorn pushed against them.

     

     

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