StephenM

Sold.

Bump. Sale pending on the RF-5s and RC-35.

Bump!

I appreciate the support guys! Hopefully the pricing is aggressive enough to move them out the door. My wife has told me I can get more toys when they're gone [6]

Good evening folks, I'm aiming to sell off my old Klipsch Reference setup, all in black ash finish, produced between 2002 and 2004. Mains: RF-5s: Condition is fair to decent; in normal lighting conditions (i.e. without shining a flashlight on them), the finish looks decent, although there is some wear due to the age. In good working order, though I don't have the jumpers (I'll toss in a free set of biwire cables to make up for it though, 8' Canare StarQuad cable. Asking $400 Center 1: RC35: Condition would actually be pretty much mint but for one corner ding (thanks UPS).Good operating condition of course, and not much else to mention here. Asking $200 Center 2: RC3II:Condition is pretty worn, but still in good working condition. Asking $100 Surrounds: RF-15s: These are in pretty good shape;one has a watermark on the top of the cabinet (though you'd need direct light to really see it), and another has what looks to be a pinhole sized mark in the vinyl veneer. Other than that, they're in very good shape. Asking $300 One small caveat regarding the floorstanders: I've got spikes on both speakers at the moment, but if you're interested, I've also got rubber nubs for one pair, but only for one pair. At this time, I'd prefer a local transaction (in the DC area). Offers are welcome. Thanks for looking!

Like I said, while they measure their subs outdoors for repeatability, maximum output of the SW-115 is clearly rated in 1/8th space (corner loaded). Of course, if the SW115 could output 121dB @ 30Hz 1m 1/2 space, that would be rather impressive. Even the mighty Danley DTS-10 only puts out 115.8dB @ 32Hz @ 2 meters 1/2 space, translating into 121.8dB @ 1m 1/2 space. http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/29/Q%20DTS10%20CEA2010%20THD%20CHART%20PASS.PNG

Just as an addition: The eighth space rating does seem to be correct, even for subs where it isn't mentioned. Here is the max output per CEA2010 protocols of the SW-311 http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/51/L%20SW-311%20CEA2010%20CHART%20PASS.png At 32Hz, 2 meters, 1/2 space, it is measured to deliver 102.6dB, so at 1 meter 1/8th space, it should deliver 120.6dB. At 25Hz, 2 meters, 1/2 space, it is measured to deliver 97.9dB, so at 1 meter 1/8th space, it should deliver 115.9dB. Per it's spec (which doesn't state 1/2 space or 1/8th space), it has a maximum acoustic output of 118dB @ 30Hz. This appears like it would be bang on with what was measured if you translated it to 1 meter 1/8th space.

Incorrect. Straight from the SW-115 Spec page: http://www.klipsch.com/sw-115 Presumably the subwoofers are tested in 1/2 space (outdoors) to obtain a more repeatable result, but the rating itself is very clearly for 1/8th space (corner loaded).

I also use a sub for 2 channel listening with my RF-5s. As deep as your mains might dig, a subwoofer of commesurate quality can likely dig deeper with less distortion while offering more output.

This is correct. The crossover on the sub is there for systems that lack other bass management.

Sweet lookin woofers. Can't see anything offensive about it, unless maybe you're an avid cat person.

FWIW, measurements can show this effect just fine: SVS PB13U: 15Hz Tune Waterfall: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/55/B%20pb13%2015hz%20waterfall.jpg Group Delay: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/55/C%20pb13%2015hz%20group%20delay.jpg SVS PB13U: Sealed Waterfall: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/57/B%20pb13%20sealed%20waterfall.jpg Group Delay: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/57/C%20pb13%20sealed%20group%20delay.jpg You'll notice the difference in this case is primarily below 20Hz, which is why I say with a very good ported subwoofer, you're unlikely to notice much difference with 99% of music. Here's how the Danley DTS-10 performs comparatively: Waterfall: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/29/E%20dts10%20waterfall.jpg Group Delay: http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/29/F%20dts10%20group%20delay.jpg

As with most things in life, it's more complicated than that. A ported sub will typically have phase and ringing issues around its tuning frequency. However, if you push those issues down low enough, they become practically moot. In the end, it comes down to implementation and engineering.

The phase control is to help blend it with your main speakers and to prevent interference between them and your subwoofer. If you're using a receiver with an auto-calibration routine ala Audyssey, you can leave it at 0 and the receiver will handle phase itself. If not, you can make adjustments and see if it improves the sound.

Have you tried adjusting phase of the sub? Also, while you've tried multiple spots with the sub, it might not be a bad idea to do a sub crawl: put the sub at ear level of your seating position, and crawl around on the floor to the point where bass sounds best to you.

Obviously it will be a little more complicated than just dropping them where they fit and expecting results, but yes, quad subs can help with smoothing out in room response. No, but since you'll have more output in the lower frequencies by virtue of having more subwoofers, with a bit of EQ and room gain (dependant upon your room), you could conceivably achieve reasonably flat response to 20Hz and below.

Hi Artto, Databass shows 105.8dB @ 25Hz for the Epik Empire, but that's at 2 meters, ground plane (outdoors). Klipsch reports their maximum output at 1 meter, 1/8th space (corner loaded). In order to convert, you need to add 6dB for going from 2 meters to one meter, and an additional 12dB to go from 1/2 space to 1/8th space. As such. the Empire would output 123.8dB @ 25Hz, 1/8th space, 1 meter.

Not exactly: To borrow some of Klipsch's verbiage AFAIK, what it boils down to is that it helps with the issue of lobing in the center channel, and helps ensure a reasonably flat response over a wide area versus a standard center.

FWIW, if I were tasked with designing a "reasonable sized" Heritage center, given that the horn loaded bass idea is a no-go, a pair of 10" woofers would still do pretty nicely, at least compared to the single 12" of the Heresy. If the system were designed for a -3dB point of 80Hz, you could still get pretty high output and reasonably low distortion. Edit:Something like this but "klipschier" http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-12ht/

I found one formula; don't know how accurate it is: http://fullrangedriver.com/singledriver/horndesign.html Using a Size Factor of 2, I came up with 0.736 square meters needed or 1340 square inches for 80Hz.

Doesn't Hsu have their showroom somewhere in his vicinity? Might not be a bad idea to contact Hsu to get a demo of a VTF-15H. A pair of those puppies (or even a single) is nothing to sneeze at.

Between a pair of RW-12Ds and the Legends, I'd probably opt for the Legends based on what little I know. Between the Legends and the Empire, things get a little murkier. 1. We know what the Empire delivers. We have no actual data on the Legend. 2. Having dual subs of course gives you the ability to smooth the in room response over a wide area a bit better than is possible with a single sub. 3. I'd check out what you can on reliability on the two. I've heard the Legend was at one time known for having amp issues. Not sure if that's still the case. Also have heard of more recent issues with the Empire in this regard.

No difference that I'm aware of. The point of corner loading is that bass will radiate in 360 degrees. By putting the subwoofer against one wall, as opposed to out in the open, it is theoretically equivilent to adding a second subwoofer in that spot(+6dB). By putting it in a corner, you add another wall, and thus add another 6dB, and adding the output of another 2 subs.

Again, it's hard to say since the RW-12D hasn't been measured up, down, and sideways like the Empire and the PB12-NSD. Per the PB12's measurements and the RW-12D's specs, the PB12 should have greater output than a stacked pair of RW-12Ds from 30Hz on down; I'd expect a single RW-12D could probably come close to matching the output of a PB12 from 40Hz on up, although I doubt it could match the performance in distortion or linearity.

No one has really measured the Legends, but from what I've read its response is similar to the Empire, but with about 6dB less output across the board. As such, a pair of them ought to put you at near parity with a single Empire in terms of output, and if you've got the inclination, you can try to smooth the in room FR across a wide area. Depends on what you're looking for. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=66 It's not the king of output, although it has no shortage of it. What defines the output of the PB12-NSD is a very flat, linear response, even at its limits, and very low distortion. For example, from 20Hz to 125Hz, at the 100dB long term sine sweep, the response varies by a total of about 4dB (+/-2dB), and distortion reaches a maximum of 2.5% around 25Hz. Moving up to the 105dB long term sine sweep, the response varies by a total of about 6dB (+/-3dB), and distortion reaches a maximum of 4.5%, again around 25Hz. Translating that from 2 meters ground plane to in room, if you corner loaded the PB12-NSD and sat 10 feet away from it, you'd theoretically see 113.3dB.