edwardre

Huh? what 'side pieces are you referring to Tom? Yes, there are outer side pieces as well as inner side pieces. The outer side pieces are the ones you see comprising the outside of the Belle bin itself. The inner side pieces make up the side of the doghouse so 'yes' there is a 3" channel around the outside of the doghouse. Didn't mean to confuse anyone, just thought that the LaScala busted open like that would be a good visual of the relationship of the 'ramps', throat opening, etc.....the things I am not good at describing....

Also, I believe that the angled pieces on the Belle butt to the side pieces instead of the sides overlapping the angled pieces.

Interesting shot of the doghouse from a LaScala. Found this pic on epay just now, thought it might help. The Belle is basically the same except that instead of coming to the fine point in front, it has the front finished strip of wood.

Sorry folks, been out of touch for awhile working on a couple of pairs of Heresy's. Is it just me or are those things rather....'screechy'? And man, did they cheapen out on the Heresy 2 (in reference to the H1) or what? Looks the same from the outside but kind of like a Forte 2 on the inside....but the sound is very similar. I have a pair of Forte 2's for mains in the 'TV watching room'. A Klipsch SC1 center channel and a pair of Tannoy studio monitors round out the 'HT' there. When I purchased a 1953 khorn from a dude down the street, I noticed that he had stacks of Heresy and Cornwall cabinets (sorry, no empty Belle cabs!!!) just laying around. I inquired and he stated he didn't know what he was going to do with them, so I dropped it. Then the other day he called and said he was chopping them up to use for firewood and would I want any??? Huh??? Come on!!! Firewood??? So I grabbed a couple of pairs of Heresy cabs before they went into the 'pit' as he described it. He even delivered!! One pair was to replace the rear Tannoy surrounds, the other pair was for the garage. Then I found a single H2 (for center) on epay for $103, hence the comparisons. I had the guts for 2 pairs of heresys (except for the 12" woofers) just laying around from replacing them out of various Belles and Cornwalls. So now I have Heresy's and Fortes....in that role, the Heresy's are ok. Man, I even acquired a pair of 12" K22 Heresy woofers from epay yesterday for get this.....$8.50. Anyway, sorry for the OT but I really love dinking around with these speakers....my wife and daughter call it a 'wierd obsession'. I'll do the same as before, print out your questions, digest, go home and measure or check or verify, then get back with you hopefully within a day or so.

I too toss my vote in for either of the formats. They are both excellent (given that the material is recorded/transferred well) especially when compared to a CD. I have a Denon 1600 DVD-A and a Sony 755 SACD player and you can just 'drop a disk' into either and play, no video necessary. In fact, the Denon has a video 'defeat' which they claim is suppose eliminate any video 'crosstalk' that might make it into the audio stream, so 'seeing' a DVD-A is not really necessary at all. Never having owned an 'Eagles' album in any format ever (prefer my music a wee bit 'harder'), the first DVD-A title I purchased was Hotel CA. This to my ears is without question the best recording I've ever heard of anything anywhere. The sound when played through my Denon1600 through my Denon 3802 receiver to my all heritage setup (4 50's era Khorns in the corners and Belles for front and rear centers) plus a SVS 20-39PC+ sub, flat out blows away anything that has ever come out of my ST70/modified Cornwall 2-channel setup. A close but measurable second is DSOM in SACD. For 'pure music listening' - when you sit and listen only, not as background sound - I prefer to listen to DVD-A or SACD over a tube setup anytime.

TC - Yeah, yeah, yeah.....! It's the hobby room! The wife isn't allowed in..... Tom....my rationale was this....the components are all from ORIGINAL pre-60's Khorns, not some cluge of parts acquired from the local swap meet. The size of the bass bins of the khorns have not changed though the components within have. They have changed from Stephens 103LX2's to K33's. From a University SAHF mid driver to the K-55's, and from the University 4401/mid-T tweeter to the K-77's. In other words, the K33, K55 and K77 are direct replacements to the Stephens and Universities. They are likewise indiginous to the Cornwall so it stands to reason that anything a K33, K55 or K77 is in will support the Stephens or Universities, right? Khorn, Belle, LaSacla or CW. Or at least be a close starting point. So the proclamation that 'those ain't modified Cornwalls; they're custom DIY speakers using a Cornwall box' really isn't quite on the mark......a wee bit of thought went into the project upfront. Using the audio sweep and a rat shack meter, the output is flat throughout the 30hz - 15khz range. I was unsure of whether or not the Stephens could go up the extra 100hz to 600hz with the original "B"-type xover, but there seems to be no problem. Bottom line is one listen will convince..... Am I missing something? (other than a good 'wipedown'?)

I too was thinking an Academy to match up with my Forte II's but at the price - $400/$600 - I figured that it simply wasn't worth it. Instead, I just scored a single Heresy II from 'the bay' this AM: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5710655924&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT $103 (not including shipping) is quite palatable. This should work out for me as 1. my Forte II's are black so this matches, 2. I have Heresy's for my rear surrounds. The rear Heresy's are HWO, but it looks like the "O" has not occured since they left the factory. One of them has been dropped and then repaired (roughly) with wood putty. Once I resmooth the side and sand the whole thing, the intention is to paint it black. Question is: has anyone painted a walnut, birch or other woodgrain speaker black? And if so, what is a good paint and technique to use? I have a compressor with sprayer so I think that would be better than to use a rattle can. But is there a preferred paint? Or should I stain it black?

Rob's input is precisely what I did to rip the whole sheets. Clamped a straight-edge and used a skilsaw fitted with a new, fine toothed blade. I didn't have to 're-rip' with the table saw, the cut was very clean. DM - No, that is not an add on piece, but rather part of the 'doghouse' itself. That's why I suggested taking the utmost care - even masking or taping it off during construction - to avoid blemishing it during construction. The 'sides' of the doghouse attach directly behind this front piece angling away towards the back of the unit so that the full 3/4" of the frontpiece is exposed. Like I posted earlier, this 3/4" (the thickness of the front piece) is painted black all the way up to the actual face. I painted mine 'satin black' because it seemed to be 'blacker' than flat black, which looked kind of grayish in comparison. In order to make the 'black to woodgrain' transition exact and crisp. I used a piece of iron on wood veneer (the birch), cut to size, then I painted it black, then after it dried completely, I ironed it onto the edge of the frontpiece creating a very clean 'black to woodgrain' transition. Like usual, a picture is worth a thousand words. I will try and photograph this tonight and post tomorrow. Tom - Yes there is indeed a grille on the angled sides of the doghouse. 4 grilles total, two on each side of the front piece. And yes, the angled side of the doghouse - in fact everything 'inside' of the Belle is painted black, though I don't think that klipsch uses flat black but rather a satin or semi-gloss.

I too have modded my 'walls......the mods are not for everyone, but I sure do like the sound better than stock. These were '83 (I think...they're "Y"s). Didn't like the sound.....too harsh. Had the 'cheaper' components. I had a spare pair of the original "B-type" crossovers. That helped a bit. However, when I replaced the midrange setup (not even K55V's or even M's) with a University SAHF/Cobreflex setup (see attached pic), the sound became clearer and warmer. Bass was helped tremendously by replacing the stock woofers (they wern't even K33's but something with square magnets) with Stephens Trusonic 103LX's (massive brutes). Finally, the tweeters (which were those square magnet 'cheapos') I replaced with University 4401's. Hooked up to my old Dynaco ST70 and Dynaco PAS2, these speakers now will almost bring tears to your eyes. This is now my tube amp 2-channel listening pair. As a sidenote, I traded the stock 'guts' which I would not wish upon anybody, to a guy down the street for a bone stock 1953 Khorn.

Bass bin is 22.5"...that brings things to within 1/8"!

Folks, your list of questions was very thoughtful and thorough. There is not much left unanswered. I tried to think of things that I ran into during the build process. Today's tutorial will focus on some of these.... First, the bass bin grilles. Klipsch makes the bass bin grilles (in '74, don't know if they are constructed the same today) out of 1/2" ply. The middle is cut out (roughly hewn is more precise), and one long side is cut at 45 degrees rather than 90. The 45 degree edge is then flush across the front when installed. The grilles (4 in all) are held in place via screws from the top and bottom of the bin. Like all of Klipsch's grilles for the heritage speakers, the number of staples used to fasten the cloth is staggering. In fact, it was easier for me to fabricate new grillecloth frames rather than to try and remove all the staples in order to recloth. The attached pic is of one of the factory grille frames with the cloth removed. You can see that the construction is 'not exacting'. I use the grilles on the factory belle because the factory belle's interior area is 'less than stunning' visually. However, not to be a braggart, but I did finish the interior a bit more 'cleanly' than my factory counterpart, and quite honestly, I do not typically use the grilles on this unit. The grille dimensions are: 9"x20-7/8" again, with one of the 20-7/8" edges cut at a 45 degree angle. Great care should be taken with regards to the front 'finished' strip (center vertical woodgrain piece). I recommend that you identify a visually pleasing grain pattern because after all, this single piece of wood draws the eye the most. Especially when a single belle is used as a center. Top and sides are important, but when you are sitting, it's this front piece that gets stared at. The factory grain configuration for this piece is vertical. With this in mind, it is this piece that gave me the most grief when constructing the speaker enclosure because during the construction of the 'doghouse' portion, which is essentially the starting point for the project, this piece is subjected to a lot of handling. I ended up masking it off and only unveiled it after everything else was completed in an effort to save it from unnecessary handling. Edging this frontpiece afforded pause as well. The factory belle is painted black all the way out to the face of this piece. In other words, on a factory belle, this front piece is edged black. I at first thought to simply paint it, but then thought that the ply would still show. It does not show on the factory unit. I ended up spraying birch edge veneer black then ironing it on. I used birch edge veneer because the grain was less evident when painted and again, you see no grain pattern through the black on the factory belle. Once ironed on, the iron on glue kind of oozes out the sides. This is generally no problem as you would normally use say walnut edge veneer on walnut ply, and sand to smooth this transition to create a unidentifiable seam. However, any sanding on the painted edge veneer creates an obviously 'fuzzy corner', and the goal is a crisp 'black to woodgrain' transition. Be careful here. The grain pattern for the sides is vertical from the factory. The grain pattern for the top is front to back rather than side to side. I further suggest that you paint the 'insides of the sides, top and back' first before assembly. After you have completed the basic assembly, then edge veneer the sides and top.

Pleasure was all mine. I have receive so much valuable information, insight, connections and answers from this forum that I am honored to be able to give a little back.

Tom - You probably don't have kids messing with the PC....."dad, the computer isn't working" "what did you do?" "NOTHING...." Dale, if you are consistently missing auctions by the skin of your teeth, might I suggest a 'helper' like esnipe.com? This service, which is 10ths of pennies, has won me more goods at unbelievable prices than I can remember. I guess I was fortunate....I got my single walnut Belle (sn with a "P"...'74?) on ebay for the remarkably low price of $385 about a year ago. Naturally, after I got it I decided to add a rear center....that's how I got into the 'clone one' activity. OK folks, here goes with the answers: 1) How tall is the bottom riser? 2" exactly, with mitered joints. 2) How far is it set in from the front, back and sides? Front: 5/8" Back: 1/8" Sides: 3/4" 3) The vertical wood panel between the grilles in the bottom section looks like it is set back a little from the front edge of the cabinet, how far? 3/8" 4) Is the bass bin built with mitred corners like a hardwood Cornwall or Heresy? No 5) How tall is the riser between the top and bottom sections? 1" 6) How far is it inset, front back and sides? Front: 13/16" Back: flush Sides: 11/16" 7) On my '60 Khorns the top section is set back about 3/4", is the top section of a Belle flush to the front of the lower section? Looks flush in the pics I've got. Flush 8) How tall is the top section not counting the riser? 10" exactly 9) Looks like the sides of the top are set in a little, how much? 3/16" 10) How far does the grille wrap around the sides? 4-1/4" from the front edge. 11) Is the grille removable? Yes 12) On my old Khorns the top grill is actually set in about 1/8", is the Belle like that? 3/8" 13) How far back from the front of the top section is the motorboard? 3/8 to the grillcloth, the grillcloth is stretched over the motorboard....so maybe add 1/8" to account for the cloth. 14) Does the motorboard basically run across between the front edges of the side panels? Or is it further forward? Don't know what you are asking here. The motorboard and 'grille' are one and the same. See attached photo. It is basically a 3/4" piece of ply with openings cutout for the two horn lens', then the cloth is stapled to this. The sides are constructed from what looks to be 2x4's, with the 3/4" ply glued and screwed to these 2x4's. 15) Can anybody come up with the basic outside dimensions of the K-500 or 505 front flange? I can only speak to the openings in the motorboard/grille. Midrange opening is 4"x11-5/8", and the tweeter opening is 1-11/16"x4". 16) How about its' depth with a k-55 attached? Can't answer this one, I use a different configuration. 17) Anybody think it would be nice to have the option of mounting the tweeter centered above the K-500 or vertically at one side? The tweeter is mounted centered above the K500. I have done limited testing with a vertical mount tweeter scheme, doesn't seem to be as 'expansive' in that config. 18) Anybody got any bright ideas before I go buy a table saw? Good luck..... Now for DM's additional questions: 1) Are there any baffle cutouts in addition to the throat cavity opening? No 2) What is the shape and dimensions of the access panel? See attachment for shape, it's basically a pentagon. The measurements are just enough to accomodate the woofer. I had to defile my hatch opening to accomodate the woofer mod. The long side is 14-5/8". The two sides at 90 degrees from the long side are both 5-3/8. The 45 degree sides are 5", and the remaining short side is 9". The hatch cover is a rectangle that covers the hole. It has a rubber gasket to seal. 3) is the motor board with the reported 13-3/4" circular cutout mounted directly to the baffle board or does it use mounting bolts and wingnuts? The woofer mounts directly to the motorboard. The woofer is mounted with screws that go from the basket side of the woofer through the motor board into one of those nuts with the spikes on it to permanently afix it to the motorboard. 4) is there any insulating material inside the back chamber? Nope. 5) I am assuming that the throat cavity opening is the typical 3" x 13" one used in the Khorn and La Scala. If so, then there is a capacitance associated with the 13-3/4" circular opening in the motor board. Is the La Scala setup the same? Don't know. Have never been in the same room as a LaScala. 6) does the top and/or bottom overlap the back panel? The back panel is inset (flush) within the top, bottom and sides. Let me know if there are further requests for info.

So sorry folks, didn't have a chance to get to it, my daughter fried the PC so I spent all last evening trying to avoid the inevitable, re-formatting and re-installing Win2K - I was unsuccessful. Had to start from scratch. Here are a few of my thoughts regarding construction philosophies. The parts that you cannot see (the doghouse specifically) or will be painted black (the exterior of the doghouse, the 'floor', the back, the 'hatch', the upper section 'motorboard') I figure can be made of significantly less expensive material. I used a nice 3/4" ply that was finished nicely on one side and finished marginally on the other. Think it was CDX? ~$40. Structurally, very sound. For the visual pieces (the sides, the top section, the bass bin front piece, the collar and risers), I used 3/4" walnut ply, being careful to match the 'grain direction' of the factory unit. Whereas I'm sure you can engineer for maximum efficiency when laying out for your pieces, you want to keep in mind that the side pieces should have the grain of the wood going vertical, same with the front piece, rather than one side horizontal grain, one side vertical, etc. If you use a lesser visual quality wood for the 'don't care' areas, you can devote the expensive wood pieces to exactly what you want, you do not have to compromise in order to avoid having to purchase another whole sheet for one last piece. I live in a fairly rural area, there are no Home Depots, no Lowes. Only a 'wannabe Home Depot' Ace Hardware. In order to reap the benefits of a Home Depot or Lowes, I have to travel over an hour. However, a mere 15 minutes away in Auburn CA, there is a hardwood retailer. Auburn Hardwoods is a warehouse stacked to the 30' (at least) roof with row after row after row of exotic hardwood ply sheets. There are woods there I've never ever heard of before. Most range from $60/sheet to well over $200/sheet (for 3/4"). I just stuck with the walnut ply, it was $95/sheet of 3/4". They also have 1/4" walnut which I used to refinish a pair of mid-1950's Khorns with exactly matching grain. The best part of this place is that they let you pick and paw through stacks of wood to select the exact piece you want. Naturally, each (hardwood) piece will have to be finished with iron on edge veneering. This stuff has to be right up there as one of the greatest inventions known to mankind. Extremely easy to use. Very, very forgiving. Inexpensive. And looks tremendous. I'll get the info tonight in between loading and re-loading software......

Tom, DM, I have 'cut and pasted' your questions into a Word doc so I could print out one question sheet. I need some clarification in order to provide clear answers.... What specifically is the 'motorboard'? I always thought the 'motorboard' was the 'extra' piece of wood you mount the woofer on in a khorn bin, then you mount woofer and board to the 'throat board'. The Belle does not have one of these, the woofer mounts directly to the piece of wood with the throat cutout. With that in mind, what is it you are calling the 'motorboard in Tom's questions 13 & 14. Are you (Tom) referring to the 'back of the bottom' section board? The 'inset board'? DM - What do you mean by 'baffle cutouts'? The only thing that needs to be cutout on a Belle is the throat (3"x13") and the 'hatch'. On question #2, are you referring to the actual size of the hole, or the hatch door itself? Question #3 has me confounded. The 'motor board' reference I've already questioned, but what 'reported 13 3/4" circular cutout are you referring to? And what do you mean regarding 'mounting to the 'baffle' board'? OK, now that I review the plans again, I'm thinking that you all are calling the 'gasket' between the woofer itself and the throat board (used as a spacer for forward travel of the cone) the motor board? If so, I'm thinking that when I peeled open my Belle and removed the woofer, there was no gasket or 'spacer', but rather the woofer was mounted directly onto the board with the throat opening and thus, I constructed the clone the same way. However, this was awhile ago so I will verify.

"Elsa" - an 11 month old German Shorthair Pointer......

"Hans" - a 5 yr old German Shorthair Pointer........

Hi Tom....no, the 22.5 does not include the riser. The riser is about an inch and a half, but I'll check. I printed out your list of questions and will take it home tonight and measure my factory Belle to try and get as much answered as is possible.

22.5"

Ah...must have been the one that went for $405 yesterday evening? If so, that thing was at $256 around 4:30PST when I left work. I submitted a $357.57 ($100 over the current) esnipe and went home thinking it was in the bag. Wrong-o I was!!!

Yeah, but then he said ot wasn't....... So....is it indeed still for sale?

Thanks folks for the great input. The sentance that sealed it for me was 'it is the only center speaker designed to match the forte/chorus/quartet line' (or something like that). I did not know that, now I do! So there was one that was suppose to close on epay yesterday evening. When I left work here around 4:30PST, it was sitting at $256 with about 5 hours to go. Hmmmm I think. I'll submit an esnipe bid of $357.57 and collect it in the morning!! Wrong. went for $405 and from what I gather now, that's a fair price. I do have a spare pair of Cornwalls laying around but they are kind of large to set uptop of the RP TV. I have a couple of Belles, but they are currently utilyzed as front and rear centers in the 'real' HT setup, besides, they would be kind of large as well. There seems to be no shortage of Fortes on 'the bay', occasionally for a decent price...heck, a pair of Chorus 2's went for under $300 earlier this week or late last week. If I get a pair of Fortes on the cheap, I'm sure that there will be someone here that might want the other one......

Seems like this is the center of choice. I have a backup 'pedestrian' HT that we use for general TV watching and letting the kids watch their movies with. The all Heritage HT in the dedicated 'theatre' room is strictly for DVD movies and is from the kid's perspective, hands off! Anyway, the HT I'm talking about is comprised of a pair of Forte 2's as front mains, a klipsch SC1 center, and a pair of Tannoy studio monitors as rear surrounds. A 60" Proscan rear projection TV rounds out the HT. The center channel is clearly the 'weakest link'. Since I subscribe to the philosophy that you are only as good as your weakest link, clearly this center has to be upgraded. It is waaaaay toooooo 'screetchy' for my liking. Questions are: What would integrate well with the Forte 2's? An Academy? Is there anything else that should be suitable? I was thinking of a single Heresy? Perhaps a C7? But then you are talking about a lot of scratch. What does an Academy typically sell for? Any input will be greatly appreciated......thanks!

Might be what someone here is looking for....center channel opportunities...? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=5709504051&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=5709504054&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=5709504056&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61378&item=5709504064&rd=1

Nope. On this particular speaker I purchased the bin seperately for $100. It was made in the early 60's from a Klipsch kit. The only thing I had do do was to fabricate the cabinet. It's 'mate' is a 1953 Khorn (s/n:253) in Mahogany. I have just completed reveneering in walnut to match as well as converting from a type "C" to a type "B".....oiling her up tonight.....should have pics of the completed pair soon.