raneman

Is the Sanus shelf mentioned in this thread the "SANUS SYSTEMS TV-SB Television Shelf for Center Channel Speakers"? If so, it appears this shelf is only 19" wide and supposedly only holds 15 lbs. At first glance that wouldn't seem to work for the RC-7 mentioned or my C-7--but has anyone used this shelf successfully for those speakers? Does anyone know of a similar top-of-the-TV shelf that is wider and will support more weight? Unfortunately a stand in front of my TV won't work for my setup, unless I get a different TV stand.

OK, you're probably going to think I'm crazy, but I think the next best thing to KLF-30's for surrounds is...SB2's. Short of two more KLF-30's (or maybe 20's or 10's), IMO, nothing is going to be that great. I have KLF-20 mains. Some day perhaps I will have the room and money for a KLF-20 center and KLF-20 rears. Until then, I'm using a C-7 center and SB-2 rears. My reasoning: IMO the SB-2's match better with my KLF-20s than the Reference series surrounds, the SB-2s perform about as well for rear surround as anything else I've tried (and I've tried quite a few speakers looking for a good match, including the KSP-S6's), they great-sounding little speakers, they are affordable, and I'll have a better chance of re-using them down the road when I upgrade (good bookshelf speakers could go in the kitchen, office, etc.). Yes KSP-S6's or something else might be better, but not enough, to me, to justify the much higher cost. So I say forget the KSP-S6's and save yourself the money, unless that's not a concern.

I have them on some pretty sturdy adjustable-height satellite speaker stands. A bit precarious, but I have just enough room for the stands and I don't have children or pets. I have them positioned to the side of the listening area. I don't have a ton of room, so my seating is against the rear wall of the room. The SB-2's are on the stands in the rear corners, to the side of seating, pointing directly at the seating (i.e., not toed in--perpendicular to the side walls and parallel with the rear wall. I'd say they're about 6" higher than my ear when seated, about 4" from the side wall, and about 2" from the rear wall. To be honest, I haven't played around with the positioning much, but this seems to work pretty well for my room. I'd like to try them in the same position but a bit higher and angled down at the listening area, but you're right that mounting is difficult without any mounting holes. You might search the forum, as I think I might have seen some posts about similar mounting situations/solutions in past. There's also some good info about positioning for rear monopoles, which might/might not agree with my positioning. I consulted this, and I think I went with the main grain for positioning, but I honestly can't remember.

I use SB-2's for my rear surrounds with KLF-20 mains and a C-7 center. I think they're a good match--as good as anything else and a more reasonable price. I haven't tried RB-3's for rear surrounds, but I've tried an RC-3 and RS-3's (in-home) and thought the Reference line was an awful match for my KLF-20's. I also tried the SS-1's and KSP-S6s before settling on the SB-2's. My reasoning: IMO the SB-2 sound matched better than the Reference series, they performed about as well for rear surround use as anything else I tried, they sounded great on their own, they were affordable, and I felt I would have a better chance of re-using them down the road when I upgrade (good bookshelf speakers could go in the kitchen, office, etc.). From my trial-and-error and other posts on this forum, I think the only way I would get dramatic improvement for my rear surround/match, at least worth the extra price, would be to use two more KLF 20's (unfortunately I don't have the room or funds). So, I say go with the SB-2's unless you're planning on upgrading to all Reference later. They're great little speakers. Oh--and I thought the SB-2's were much better than the SB-1's and even slightly better than the SB-3's.

ATLDiver, Quite a while back when I was trying to learn about bi-wiring/speaker wiring options, I ran across a couple of sites where guys talked about using Cat5 cable for speaker wiring, in detail--and they swore by it. I haven't seen this discussed much on this forum, but I haven't been here that long. I can't remember the exact sites, but suffice it to say that this has definitely been tried and the info is out there. I think you have the right idea--might as well experiment if you have the materials and time, and see if you like it. This link might help get you started with your experimenting: http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html Otherwise, do some basic internet searches on cat5/speaker/etc., and I'll bet you find a lot of info. As far as the bi-wiring, you might/might not like it with your speakers--I don't want to get into that debate. However, if your runs to your speakers are short (say under 12 feet), you might consider trying a fairly cheap bi-wire option. Monster makes a 4 x 14ga bulk cable (2 pair of 14ga in one casing). You can terminate the ends yourself if you want, or just twist together the bare ends. I used Monster twist-crip banana plugs for convenience. Easy and tidy option for bi-wiring, and you should be able to buy this wire at a local hi-fi/custom install shop for around $.90 a foot. This has worked quite well for me for bi-wiring my KLF-20s. Perhaps I'll upgrade in the future, but sounds great, TO ME, for now. I know you're not big on Monster (neither am I for the same reason), but this might be an affordable option for you to try. Hope this helps. I say experiment away and see what works best for you.

I'm not surprised you haven't found a good match for your KLF-20's. Since buying my KLF-20's to use as mains about three years ago, I have also been struggling to set up a surround system with which I am happy (I couldn't do it all at once either). I have a C-7 center (tried an RC-3 before buying that). I've tried SS-1's, RS-3's, and KSP-S6's for rear surrounds, and I ended up returning/selling them all. I'm now using SB2's for my rears. They sound about as good as anything else I've tried, they're pretty inexpensive, and I can re-use them in my office or something down the road. All these are fine speakers in and of themselves, but I'm not happy with how they match up with the KLF-20's (for an example--try using your KLF-20's as a "phantom" center. I'll bet the sound will be way different and better from the C-7, other than the screen localization that the C-7 center provides). From what I understand now, Klipsch never made a center or rears for the KLF line--the C-7 and KSP-S6 were just the "closest" match. That, to me, is the real problem. Wish I would have done my research and known this before I purchased the KLF-20's (which I LOVE). What I have is pretty darn good for now, and some day the KLF-20's will be moved to a music-only system and I will buy a new set of speakers for HT--all at the same time! As far as keeping the KSP-S6's, they're very hard to find and should fetch a very high price. I've seen them go for over $700 on e-Bay. If you don't think that you'll use them much, I'd sell them. But it'll be hard to ever get them back.

Just my totally subjective opinion--get the SB2's if you can find them. I auditioned the SB1, 2, and 3's side-by-side for quite a while before deciding on the SB2's. To me the SB2's sounded considerably better than the SB1's and slightly better than the SB3's. They just seemed to sound "better balanced" than the SB3's, and they certainly sounded as good as the SB3's for a lower price--told you this was a subjective opinion. BTW, I'm using the SB2's as rear speakers with KLF-20 mains and a C7 Center, and I think they keep up exceptionally well, in that useage, considering the price. But ultimately it's what you think that matters.

I would love to purchase from a reputable local Klipsch dealer or authorized internet store, for all the reasons listed above. However, as far as I know, here's my choices in Minneapolis/St. Paul, a metro area of about 2.5 million people: Smaller Klipsch dealer #1: unless you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars in a custom installation, they won't give you the time of day--and they probably wouldn't recommend Klipsch anyway. Smaller Klipsch dealer #2: used to be pretty good--I've spent over $2,000 with them, but now they have almost all KEF in the store. Was just there on Saturday, and they only had SB1,2,3, RF3, and RB5. None of their current sales people know Klipsch, and they're really pushing KEF. Several AudioKing (Ultimate Electronics) stores: I refuse to purchase at these stores any more. I've been to almost every store multiple times, hoping to find a salesperson who will give me the time of day and knows something about Klipsch. Typical conversations: Me, "Do you have the new Klipsch RF-7s in yet?" Salesperson, "Uh, we have some Klipsch bookshelf speakers and some floorstanding models--we've got a really good sale on those small ones over there, they're really cool and loud." Me,"I'm thinking about bi-wiring my Klipsch KLF-20s--what speaker wire do you carry, and what do you think about bi-wiring?" Salesperson, "bi-what?????" Oh yeah, then there's the uBid option. Only took me six months and several hours of work to get my money back after they charged my credit card for an item I won that they didn't actually have and never shipped me. I've always been a big fan of Klipsch and love my KLF-20s, but I'm just plain tired of trying to find a decent place to buy Klipsch products. They're so concerned with unautorized dealers (and O.K., I understand and respect that), but then give me some options.

Keith, Thanks for the help. My room is a bit challenging. It is a 12 x 16' sunken living room with a 9' ceiling. On the far short end away from the steps down into the room, there is a sliding glass door that opens to a porch. The short end with the steps is open to a dining area of 12 x 10', so the entire room is 12' x 26'. I have my TV and front speakers on the long side of the sunken living room. My couch is against the opposite wall. Since one end of the room is open, my options for rear surrounds seem to me to be either on stands pointing in toward the couch, on the back wall behind the couch facing forward, or on the ceiling pointing down. I've tried all of these positions, but stands to the sides of couch, as far back as possible and with speakers about a foot above ear level, seems to work the best. Today I'm heading to a local Klipsch dealer to meet with one of their audio guys who has helped me in the past but hardly ever works any more. He was going to run this by their Klipsch rep. We'll see what he has to say and what he can come up with. I'll post my findings. Sorry for the above rant, I'm mostly mad at myself for not thinking this thing through before starting. I just fell in love with the KLF-20s and thought it would be easy to fill out the rest of my HT system. Should have know better, as I'm a bit obsessive and kind of a perfectionist. Your comments about being happy with what you have are very wise Keith--it's something I need to work on. DecibleLvr, hope you can some helpful information in all of this--at least some experience and opinions to help with your decision. If not, sorry for budging in on your post. Eric

DecibleLvr, I am in the same boat as you. I started with KLF-20s a year ago. Got them from a local dealer on close-out, listened to them several times before buying, and I still love them. I added an RC-3 center last fall, but after having it a month I really wasn't happy with the sound match, returned it, and, after a couple of failed attempts, got a C-7 off eBay. The C-7 is a much better match, but still not really up to the KLF-20s, IMHO. Just recently trying to add the rear surrounds. I've bid on the very few KSP-S6s that have come around in the past few months on-line, but I just won't pay $800 for used rear surrounds that were not really designed for the KLF-20s, and that I can't hear first. So, I got some RS-3s on demo and tried them at home for a month. Tried many different placements. Sound O.K. but I don't feel they're a very good match for the KLF-20s either. And, I just don't think they're worth the money(that goes for the entire Reference Series). O.K., let the bashing of me for saying this begin, but that's my opinion. I took the RS-3s back last week. The Reference series and WDST just don't do much for me. So I'm still trying to decide what to do. I would never give up my KLF-20s, but I wish I would have known these limitations for putting together a HT system with them before I started (NOTE: I know my troubles are my own fault for buying the KLF-20s on closeout without doing my homework and really knowing what I was getting into). I'd love to go HornEd's route of 5 KLF-20s, but I don't have the room and I'm really tired of trying to scrounge up used speakers. I think I'm going to buy some SB-2s to use as rear surrounds for now, and start saving up for a new HT speaker package (probably not Klipsch--I was thinking 5 RB-5s, but I listened to them the other day and was extremely unimpressed). Then some day when I have more room maybe I'll set up the KLF-20s with perhaps some tubes in a system for music only. Don't know what to tell you DecibleLvr; only that I feel your pain and that if you're really picky, you probably won't ever get a tightly matched HT system with the KLF-20s, unless you use all KLF-20s.

Some commentary on uBid. First, they are cheap, and many people have had no problems with their purchases. That being said, my experience with them has been horrible. They do not always have items in stock, and they're not always correct about warranties. Basically, their business systems are so poor that if anything goes wrong with inventory, a user account, or an order they can't handle it. My last auction with them they didn't have the item I won in stock to ship me, so I had them cancel my order, but then they billed my credit card anyway. Their customer service has been degrading over the past months. In the past month, if I've been able to get through, I've been on hold for over an hour each call. Their customer service through e-mail used to be OK, but now you will get an automatic reply saying they'll respond to your e-mail in the order received. Been over a month since my last e-mail and no response. So, I didn't get the item I won, was charged for it anyway, and now I can't get any response from customer service either via the phone or e-mail. I have trouble finding the time to wait an hour on hold. I hope no one else has this many problems with uBid--but I've heard a lot of similar stories, so you've been warned.

I would also bi-wire your rf-3 and rc-3. If your runs to your center and mains are short (say under 12 feet), you might consider trying a fairly cheap bi-wire option for these speakers. Monster makes a 4 x 14ga bulk cable (2 pair of 14ga in one casing). You can terminate the ends yourself if you want, or just twist together the bare ends. I used Monster twist-crip banana plugs for convenience. For each cable/speaker: at the receiver end twist black and green together and connect to -. Twist white and red together and connect to +. At the speaker, remove the metal jumpers and connect black to one -, green to the other -, red to one +, and white to the other +. Easy and tidy option for bi-wiring, and you should be able to buy this wire at a local shop for around $.90 a foot. This has worked quite well for me for bi-wiring my KLF-20s. Perhaps I'll upgrade in the future, but sounds great for now.

I'm not Mr. Technical, but since I've got a Sony DVP-NC600 DVD player and 27" Wega I'll try to help. First, you are right that component video is superior to SVHS (480 lines per inch, about 100 lines per inch more than SVHS, if I remember right). Generally you won't notice the difference between the two on a 27" TV or less, but on your 32" you will probably notice the difference more. Plus, component video has capability to output images progressively (480), which is better than interlaced (480i) if you have HDTV capable of displaying the images progressively. Yes, you'll want to use the component video cable from your DVD to TV for the best quality. Either the digital or analog outputs on your DVD player will send all audio, DVDs or CD, to your receiver--stereo, DD, DTS, whatever. The important thing is that if you use the digital outs (coaxial or optical), you will bypass the DAC in your DVD player and thus use the DAC in your receiver (for both music and movies). If you use the analog (composite RCA) outs on your DVD player, you will use the DAC in your DVD player. As long as your receiver has a decent DAC that can decode DD and DTS, I would use the digital coaxial out on your DVD player. This should be fine for both movies and music. If your DVD player has a better DAC than your receiver, or if it can decode DTS but your receiver can't, then you should use the analog outs on your DVD player. From my DVD player to my receiver I have analog, digital coaxial, and digital optical hooked up, and my receiver lets me switch between the three. I have to use digital for DTS since only my receiver can decode DTS, but I thought I might use analog and the DVD player's DAC for music. In the last six months I haven't used anything but the digital coaxial output--in my case the DAC in my reciever seems to be much better. I think this would be the same in your case. Yes, the digital outputs will send all audio to the receiver. I have a VCR in the mix, but I believe yes you would want to hook the cable to your TV and run composite audio out of your TV and into your receiver. No, your receiver wouldn't have any VIDEO outputs going into any of its inputs. You could probably run all video through your receiver, but I don't see any reason to do so. In my mind, the fewer connections the better. One note, if your receiver has an on-screen display that you wish to use, you will need to connect a single composite cable from the video out on your receiver to an input on your TV. To use the on-screen display you would activate it on your receiver and change your TV input accordingly. Yes, hooking up your Sega as you indicated should work fine. If you have the video out from your receiver to your TV for on-screen display, you could also hook the SVHS and audio to an input on your receiver, say the front auxiliary inputs if your receiver is capable. Then you would select this input on your receiver and select the input for the on-screen display on your TV. Receiver would send audio to speakers and video to TV. This is what I do, as I don't leave my Playstation hooked up and find it the easiest connection. Again, I'm not Mr. Technical and am not familiar with your receiver, so take this for what it's worth. Any other thoughts or corrections would be welcome, as I'm always eager to learn more too. Eric

I agree with Mike, bare wire connections are fine. Might want to re-do these connections every once in a while if you're worried about oxidation. I use Monster twist-crimp banana plugs for convenience of wire termination and connection/disconnection (I think $12 for four plugs). Bare wire/wire termination is debated, but I haven't noticed a difference assuming I get a solid connection. I also use the Monster M-500 component video cable and have no complaints. Don't want to get into the speaker wire debate, really, but I agree that decent (like Monster) 12ga will suffice. If your runs to your center and mains are short (say under 12 feet), you might consider trying a fairly cheap bi-wire option for these speakers. Monster makes a 4 x 14ga bulk cable (2 pair of 14ga in one casing). Easy and tidy option for bi-wiring, and you should be able to buy this wire at a local shop for less than $.90 a foot. This has worked quite well for me. As Mike said, you could spend quite a bit more or less and be happy. Personally, I'd spend more money on the component cable and other interconnects than speaker wire. Just make sure you have a sufficient gauge of speaker wire for your runs, and make sure that you get a very solid connection at the receiver and speakers. You can always experiment with more expensive cabling later and see what you think. Just my $.02. Eric

I checked, and what I used was just standard, cheap 1/4"-20 threaded, plated ready-rod. I suppose you could also save yourself some time and use 1/4" bolts. Colin is right that you could save the effort and order them from Klipsch. Don't know how much they would cost since you bought used. However, you noted that you were looking for about a 3" raise, and the legs that came with my C7 are barely 2 1/2" when screwed in. This was not long enough for my Sony Wega, which has an extremely steep slope on top. Anyway, at least you have some options.