Audible Nectar

He got that deal because he plays QUARTERBACK, in a league that is quarterback dominated now. 20 years ago, it wasn't so much that way....a guy like Stan Humphries or Trent Dilfer could be very successful because the rules more effectively balanced the running game with passing. Given current rules, running backs are rarely a big deal anymore - most teams have a stable of three or four different types of RBs to use as interchangeable parts. That said, Michael Vick is the wrong type of QB for the NFL game. He still seeks to "run first" or "run too soon" instead of pass. Good enough to make the playoffs, but not likely good enough to win a Super Bowl (which is what the Eagles paid him for). PManning, Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, Roeth are better, and a case can be made that even guys like Cutler and Cassell are better skill matches for the NFL game. I DO think that Vick is much more right "upstairs" at this point in his career than he ever has been. EVERY indication has been that he has "walked the walk" and "paid his dues", and appears to be a model person post-sentence. And believe me, there is a hoard of press just waiting for Vick to stub his toe, or say something out of line, to no avail. In addition to being a top 10 to 15 QB in the NFL, his post jail behavior has been a big help in his contract situation, so the 15ish Mil per year is about right under the current NFL salary pattern for QBs.

At the time of the original post (Aug. 17), we were preparing to eat 28 day aged filets at Chicago's Weber Grill, then off to see Phish perform at the UIC Pavilion (four hour show, and the third show of the run). It was a great last day of the three nights of shows, and a great way to spend my birthday[] Steak and Phish[H]

Stop it. Juuuuuuuust stop it. Discussing speakers of this class makes me think my Klipsch might be inadequate. Oh, and don't talk about JBL Sovereign C60 S8Rs either. []

I rarely wish to be someone else, but I wouldn't have minded being that person for that 15 minutes. Only difference is that the pie I threw would NOT have been whipped cream.

V-Cap OIMP price sheet is here: http://www.v-cap.com/oil-capacitors.php On a horn, I'm not so sure about the teflon formulas. Would be an interesting trial on both horns and the Tannoys. However, the results of the OIMP formula for the PWK "basic" networks are just divine....especially for that triode way of listening. Juuuuuuust "wet" enough to not be offending or excessively "etched" or clinical, but allow all of the music to shine through. Excellent transparency without the "film-and-foily" upper midrange slap. No long break in, either.....fully "baked" within 100-200 hrs. One reason I haven't experimented with teflon in crossovers is that I'm not sure that I have the patience to wait out the long break-in time. In my experience with teflon formulas in gears, it's 500-1000 hours before full maturation occurs, and that's when you find out if the caps are really right. These teflon caps can do some amazing things in the right applications - the bullet speed transients and uber transparent nature of these caps can take a piece of gear up a couple of levels in performance. I love them for coupling caps in good gear....and they especially work well, it seems, in these amps made for horns with carbon comp or carbon film resistors which have that relaxed signature. So the result is that perfect crystal clear yet relaxed and warm approach that horns love - like my MC30s. I think teflons might be too "open" on a horn speaker crossover, but that's just a hunch. If I were working with speakers with less efficient components, like cone midranges and dome tweeters I would absolutely have interest in a teflon capped network, but just don't see it worth the gamble for horns. The OIMPs are perfect for that network as a "high end" cap. Some of these caps are quite expensive, but considering a full best quality rebuild of these basic networks can be done for $600-700ish in parts it's worth it as a critical upgrade to the Heritage. If it's gear you're gonna keep for the long haul I find the best parts worth it. OTOH if it's gear you're only going to keep before moving on to something else you might not take the plunge (although you can sell a well built high end network here if you sell off). And I still kept the GE can BEC rebuilds as well, as I do still enjoy the character of those on occasion.....a nice way to make a system change, or when a change is forced by service I'll roll in the GEs with Mac SS.

McIntosh MX110 McIntosh MC30s 1976 Belle Klipsch Thorens TD124 As the old McIntosh ad says: "Some people would rather have a used McIntosh (Klipsch/Thorens) than a new anything else."

I haven't run these as much on As but I have rolled caps quite a bit on AA, also with alnico - the V-Cap OIMP (oil in metallized polypropylene). They are my preferred choice for the 76 Belle Klipsch, being the most transparent and "not there" kind of "there" that just lets the music shine through. It's a tweaked to the hilt vintage Mac rig, having the best in caps and tubes throughout the chain, and the V cap based AA's are a big reason it all sounds so good. They have a 12uf which worked well for Belles (about 450 hz IIRC) I find great value in those simple early networks. For triode folks - or in my case MC30s, where it's not about volume and thump but the natural close as life midrange at more modest volume levels. For this purpose I LOVE the idea of playing around with an A or AA with GOOD parts. When DeanG recommended the VCap builds for my Belles I did it on a bit of a leap of faith, but the end results were even better than I expected. I rolled a set of VCaps into a friend's Cornwall Bs and he "got it" in very short order, and I also found it an immediate difference, especially with the imaging after a hundred hours runtime. I've run GE/Motorola oil can replacements (still have a certain magic), white Sonicaps (good value), Solens, and also spent time listening to Hovlands, Auricaps, and Audiocaps in a few different configurations. All have a bit of a differing "finish". It's certainly an interesting topic, especially from a triode perspective.

VERY cool[] I have similar ideas/thoughts with regards to my audio gears. Like a pair of well dressed Cornwalls, with a caption "When loudspeakers didn't look like a pair of dice." Or Belle Klipsch: "With these two leading ladies, you can make it a Three Way". Or a McIntosh MC30, captioned: "Hot. AND Cool." Gotta love a little nostalgia from the height of American production.....

The same thing happens with Belles, and sometimes with La Scalas. It's always amusing, especially when you ask a visitor to find your new Belles, and he gives up after a good look around the room. I've had similar occurrences with my Cornwalls. My rear set in the HT has a custom set of covers in "off white". One of them sits next to a computer terminal, and on more than one occasion have been mistaken for a refrigerator by guests. My Belles have also been completely overlooked as just furniture....you don't see the Rac-O-Mac that drives them until you enter the room and look beside/behind you - then they start to figure it out. Often people don't SAY anything at this point, but the look on their faces says "Ho-Lee-Sheet".

Cleese is a hoot[] Thanks for sharing.....

I use tubes because of a concept I learned a great deal about on this forum: The concept of MATCHING. It starts with the speakers. Heritage Klipsch were designed in an era where tubes were the norm, so I think it's a natural fit to use tubes on Heritage today. My listening tests bear this out, to my ears anyway. If I listened to other speakers as a preference, it is possible that I might choose differently. That pair of speakers would be evaluated with an array of amp combos to see what's best. So I'm not one who is "anti-solid state", it's that I believe the Heritage Klipsch benefit more from the use of vacuum tube gear. The "microdetail" of the Heritage allow the listener to benefit from all of the subtle adjustments and parts choices possible through the use of tube gear, too. The ruthlessly revealing Heritage will show you the differences in the Telefunken and Amperex 12AX7, for example, two stellar small signal tubes that can change the detail and presentation of the system. So once a tube amp is found that is generally a good match, tube rolling allows you to find that "SuperMatch". And then continuing on the theme of matching, yes it is important to match the gears too. Once an amp is found that gives good results, one might try a few different pramps with that amp to see what sounds best in combination. This of course would apply with Solid State as well, but yes, sonically matching the electronics ahead of the speakers will give benefit too. And then once that is done, there are the sources used, where again attempts at "sonic matching/best sonic combo" is again searched for. So for me, the answer to "Why Tubes" is that I think they sound best on my Heritage, and the fact that tube gear allows for almost infinite customization, which the revealing nature of Heritage shows in all hues of the sonic color pallette.

The RF series is a very good line of speakers, and gives a lot of performance for the dollar. Impressive midrange from a cone speaker (quite a feat). In fact, it's efforts like the RF, Synergy, and others that kept this company in business. And in some respects they do convey traits from their Heritage forefathers. There are other, newer ways, too - the Palladium, for example, but that is a "cost is less of an object" type of effort and an "advanced application" to say the least, so those are in a separate category. Palladium says a lot about how Klipsch feels about sound. A late 1960's to early 1970's Heritage cabinet is another animal. Overbuilt for the purpose, and handling them will make one a believer. The peak of American production and quality, when just good enough wasn't good enough, even within price points or constraints. And of course the direct legacy of PWK in the room. His "children". "The Original Five". So whle I am impressed with many of Klipsch's efforts over the years, Heritage will always stand alone for me. It is rare that I ever recommend or am as loyal to a product as I am Heritage....most who know me understand my loathing for advertising/marketing and corporate behavior - and am more prone to brand disloyalty or just downright hate than anything else. I tend to hold entities who make promises to account. So I don't make such a recommendation lightly...... It's a bit like that old McIntosh ad: "Some people would rather have a used McIntosh (Heritage Klipsch) than a new 'anything else'."I LOVE that Klipsch still builds them. Still worth it. Speakers for life. I have sold a number of people RF series speakers.....complete whole systems. They fit a bill Heritage don't, primarily in "form factor" in the new desired home theater installation. Wives let RF series in the room when Heritage wouldn't pass. And their ears are quite happy for it, and will have them for years as they are adults and take generally good care of their stuff. And I can still stand there and look good, taking credit from the wives of a job well done. So RF has made me look good.....[]..and I would not say anything bad about them for the price. The "top end" of the RF is quite impressive. The drivers are where it's at, and Klipsch delivers the goods here. With care they should last. But Heritage, like other historical pieces (Mac) are exactly that, historic, and timeless as they are from the Zenith of audio history. Oh, and for the record, I drive late model Toyota Corolla and Sienna, which I chose for strictly utilitarian reasons....reliable, solid vehicles that do what I bought them for every day with no issues. If I were the RV type, I might well buy an Airstream, though.......another incredible American relic still capable of doing what it was made for. Sometimes new brings benefits, but 50 years old can still be better than 99.9% out there (and like nothing else in truth), as my Belle Klipsch and MC30s display regularly. Knowing when to apply, and when not to apply the latest technologies is where my road to audio bliss has borne the most fruit. And even in the most modern home theater system you can build, Heritage are as valid as anything on the market.

I'm "Old School", and proud of it. "Old School" to me means...... - Built with true lasting quality, the kind of item you pass down to younger generations - Made to perform in excess of the intended use of the item. - Items that people would rather have USED than to settle for any other brand or item. - items worthy of repair.....NOT something disposed of at the least sign of an issue. - built properly enough that they still hold validity scientifically. I not only sought out Heritage, I sought used Heritage because I knew that if found in reasonably good condition that they could be updated, and would last a lifetime. As a "working stiff" who earns a modest income, I have been able to build systems that perform far in excess of their cost. In addition to Heritage Klipsch, I also own a number of vintage electronics, such as McIntosh MC30s, MX110, and MC250s, as well as a vintage turntable and component home theater system. The value of used Heritage affords me room to hook up the best electronics for them, "buy a lifetime speaker, get electronics at extreme value". Heritage is STILL the best kept secret in audio. It's all about the marketing landscape - people have been "marketed" out of them over years of the industry telling people that a big TV is more important than sound. In a way, it's selling people DOWN to match incomes, which has a spillover effect from the way we used to do it - sell UP, and show people what is really possible. From a marketing angle it became a vicious cycle - people buying smaller speakers, which had many brick and mortars disappearing, which killed the marketing for such products. Even if there IS a potential larger market, those potential customers won't see them, and will never know about them. That is, unless they find us, or we find them. Over time - and eventually - people are finding out what they were missing, and other old schoolers like me who remember find their way back here. While not the volume seller of the past, Heritage are enjoying a bit of resurgence, now again in production, which says enough in and of itself. Even with recent economic troubles in the larger global picture, Heritage are still in production. Which makes a certain amount of sense, because when times are tougher economically, you want to make the purchases you do make count. All of which is to say that quality NEVER fades completely if people have some way to find it. If I went with the masses I would have Bose. But since I went with my ears and my knowledge, I have Heritage Klipsch. Still the "one" after 60+ years of production, and the best kept open secret in the audio world BAR NONE. They are like Listerine: They say what they do, and they do what they say[H] In today's world, a rare quality. I guess I'm old school in one other way not previously mentioned.....I do not own an Ipod[]

I'm not sure why either, but I've been through enough amp rebuilds to have heard that phenomena too. There is a coherency, liqidity, and "continuousness" to the presentation after the break-in. I refrain from doing any tube rolling until that process is done, as it keeps the circuit unchanged - and therefore takes guesswork out of asking "is this troubleshooting issue because I rolled the tube - or a build/parts issue?" Even the best builders can have a part defect or connection issue on rare occasion, and my way of verifying the build is to refrain from tube rolling until the amp is well broken in. The "sonic colors" of those rolls will be more evident/beneficial on a fully broken in amp as well.

W O N D E R F U L [Y] Are those Winged C 6L6GC outputs?

Craig speaks the truth here. I would add one other very good preamp option - the MX110 (similar to C11 with an excellent tuner included). The C11, C20, C22, and MX110 all make great preamps for MC30s, and I say this as the owner of two pairs of operating MC30s.The synergy between these pieces are unmatched - they fit each other hand and glove. The vintage Mac preamps are very good on tubes, too - I've seen a number of these preamps loaded with Tele 12AX7 that test like new ones do. You might burn through two sets of 'em during a typical 80 year human life. The collective tonality exhibited by these gears is a sound to behold - especially when given proper electrical rework. One of the truly best rigs in audio history. I have newer tube based gears as well (NOSValves VRDs with JM pre in a 6 channel HT rig, which exhibits superb transparency) but the vintage Macs are unique. Having both gives me just about everything I want in the sonic palette.

Are you trolling?

If it's that big of deal to you, buy vintage ones. You don't even have to pay extra! I can't speak for the "star" rating setup as I've never attempted to use it. However, this subject of MDF has been discussed TO DEATH on this forum over the years. Klipsch has their reasons for using MDF which you may or may not like, but no one would stop you if you came here, found a used set of Heritage to your liking, and then ask members how to help you update them to your absolute liking. Dude finds an audio goldmine - and a Heritage Klipsch lover no less - and has to pizz all over it. You really ought to have a look around, and see what can be accomplished with time spent here. Lemme give you a hint over the head: Klipsch affords us a forum where we pretty much do to our speakers whatever we feel improves them, we say what we think here (as long as we don't personally attack - just the argument). It's very free and wide open here - so feel free to make your complaints in writing if need be - that's more beneficial to visitors here than a "star" system would be anyway. So use the tools, don't BE a "tool", and you may well find benefit here. Signed, Proud owner of three Cornwall pairs and Belle Klipsch pair, all birchcore - and all AlNiCo[]

When you get the system broke in a little leave the switches in each position for a few weeks each. Give them some time to appreciate the various nuances. I do this with tube rolling too....it takes a sample trip 'round the collection to fully appreciate the changes, and you'll likely find give and take between the two.

You are correct that I do use the VRDs on Cornwalls. I do also have a set of Belle Klipsch, but those are in the other room on the Mac system. I don't think my "issue" with the VRDs in triode on my Cornwalls is a bass issue - I think it's because the Cornwalls place too much midrange in the woofer. In UL, the Cornwalls present themselves much more consistently and cohererently through the midrange. I SHOULD swap the system cores (VRD/Peach and McIntosh amps/pre), but the theater room needs the HT passthrough - and bringing the vintage Mac into that room messes up the HT rig. Not to mention the painindeazz of swapping speaker leads, as I ran the cables in the Mac room under the carpet to allow for an entryway between the gear and speakers (might fashion adapters of some kind). I still need and want to do this sometime....it's on my list of audio "to do's"

I appreciate the thoughts on this. I expected there to be some difference in the bass response, which can be a big deal depending on the speakers (especially if they are fully horn loaded) and the acoustic environment. VRD monobloc bass on fully horn loaded Klipsch is one helluva combo. Now on the UL V Triode, I have a bit of disagreement [] I actually prefer the VRDs in UL over triode. Not that the triode is poor or anything of the sort - it's prety good, actually - it's just that my vintage McIntosh does that "triode-ish sound/midrange bloom" more to my liking, and is what that system excels at, and the UL mode on VRDs is what that gear seems naturally good at. The VRD triode is "likeable", but the McIntosh is "get married to" when it comes to that kind of presentation, especially when fully loaded with Telefunken 12AX7. I might use triode more if I didn't have the Macs. Since I do, I never use triode on the VRDs.That said, I do understand why many DO like VRDs in triode.

Apologies.....did I miss something here? Anyway, I did attempt to change my subject header in an attempt to "keep the peace", and haven't been here much lately, so if I stepped into something blatently obvious to everyone else I didn't mean to antagonize. It's more of a self perceived non-desire to give Bill Gates any more money (which I swore I would never do), but giving in to that is better than no comp. At any rate, no offense intended None taken. It was my attempt at humor. I had a thread locked that pertained to shotguns. Ahhhh - got it. I did wonder if I had unknowingly stepped in a steaming pile of goo, or what missed/unseen explanation existed - and knowing this forum and my spotty recent attendance that's always a possibility[]

I gave a lot of thought to having one built (which I would have to do as I might go hairless doing it myself). Still might do that if I decide I'm missing anything after using this one for a year or so, which will allow the hi-def video end of things to get fully developed too. Given the pressure to "do something" to keep in a working computer, it seemed to make more sense to just get a new box, which gives me one number to call for issues, as opposed to trying to figure out how to properly integrate all of those parts. If I knew a "NOSValves" of computer building, I would go that route - and still might in the future if I get another box. Given that this one was only $500 (and my last one in the late 90's was 3K), it's not the end of the world if I do this again in a year or two - in fact, this new box might well be a great intermediate step to get more familiar with the new platforms, and better understand what I might do with a future "ultimate box". This one is already a huge improvement.

Apologies.....did I miss something here? Anyway, I did attempt to change my subject header in an attempt to "keep the peace", and haven't been here much lately, so if I stepped into something blatently obvious to everyone else I didn't mean to antagonize. It's more of a self perceived non-desire to give Bill Gates any more money (which I swore I would never do), but giving in to that is better than no comp. At any rate, no offense intended[]

It was hard to know what to buy. It's a purchase I've been needing to make for a while now (old comps 11 and 13 years old respectively), and read too much information about. It got to be a "blur" trying to figure out who really is "BEST" - there's HP, Dell, Asus, Gateway, Sony, Lenovo....hard to tell 'em apart besides obvious posted specs/features and some written reviews. So when push came to shove, I ended up buying a mid-priced ($500) tower that seemed to review OK - at least WRT operation and feature set - 8 gig RAM, 1 TB hard drive, Intel i3 processor. Gave consideration to Apple, but couldn't swing the higher prices for those, and even played around with some Linux stuff in recent weeks, but had to have a new box anyway. I would feel more comfortable seeking out matched sets of vintage tubes than buying a comp. I've had better luck with the former, and have more confidence in that area. Comps are a bit of a mental crapshoot for me, but so far it seems to work well. Compared to my old machines and work computers this thing's a racehorse. So we'll see.....