minn_male42

"I feel the need - the need for speed" Top Gun - 1986

thanks for the response... the best multichannel amp that i have ever heard was a gemstone.... the amp is sold factory direct - but you can get a personal demo since you are in the minneapolis area... the designer/owner of the company lives in andover.... http://www.gemstone-audio.com/amplifiers/blue_diamond.php the amp is under $3000 and has a very impressive sound..... i had the opportunity to compare it directly to my carver professional ZR1000 digital amp on the steve's $12,000 dali speaker.... very close in sound (two channel).... give steve a call and set up a time to listen to the amp.... he will even bring one out to your house and set it up on your speakers... good luck!

why are you selling the monster amps? i remember when you first bought them and you were very pleased with the sound....

Bill seems to be the only one in this thread that has hit the nail on the head... the low impedance dips in the lower register are difficult to handle.... most low power solid state amplifiers cannot reproduce low frequencies well on RF-7's (or KLF-30's).... i use a carver pro ZR1000 digital amp that is rated for 225 watts per side at 8 ohms.... it does an amazing job on my KLF-30's.... on the first watt as well as when the musical peaks happen to go over 100 watts....

btw - i stopped the pump at $100 and my tank was still not full (chevy suburban) []

$2.99 this morning in minneapolis

why do you only have 18.5" for your front speakers? if you are putting bookshelf speakers into some sort of "entertainment system" or built into the wall, it will definitely affect the way the speakers sound..... the best sound for almost any speaker is away from the front wall at least 6" to 8" or furthur... as for tipping the RB-75's on the side..... i think that would drastically change the dispersion pattern and limit the horizontal pattern as well as introducing reflection problems from the ceiling and floor...

zip cord is sometimes also called lamp cord.... two wires molded together in a parallel fashion.... speaker wire by definition CANNOT be "balanced".... balanced cable is what pro audio systems use for interconnects - it uses two separate signal lines with a third ground line.... all speaker lines would be considered "unbalanced"..... if your speaker wire came with the term "balanced" on the package - it is simply a marketing term and has no meaning in reality.... 14 gauge or 16 gauge will usually be fine unless you have real long runs (over several hundred feet)... the attached pdf is from the belden website and lists the lengths of different gauges of wire and the percent of signal loss over those distances cheers! 12.32.pdf

i am using a pioneer elite vsx-55txi as a pre-pro with a carver pro ZR1000 digital amp to power my KLF-30's, a carver pm-125 bridged to mono for my KLF-C7, and the internal amps of the elite for the surrounds... the ZR digital amp is GREAT with my KLF-30's.... my eventual plan is to use ZR amps all around....

---------------- On 8/10/2005 3:19:28 PM dcmo wrote: ....Is the sound going to be stunning (a knock me off my feet kind of quality), or is it going to be more like that's nice but it took a lot of money to get here? ---------------- you will hear a much better bass response from ALL of your speakers as well as better clarity - esp in the center channel... i have a pioneer elite 55txi that i use for my pre-pro (and to power my rear channels)... i use two separate pro amplifiers to power my mains and center channel.... (KLF-30's and KLF-C7).... there was a very noticible improvement over the internal amps on the pioneer receiver when i switched to my carver pro amps...

---------------- On 8/9/2005 9:08:09 AM vandec54 wrote: ....Finally, could anyone recommend an amp that goes great with my reference series? ---------------- what is your price range? how many channels are you looking to power? - in many cases a two channel amplifier added to power your mains will give you a tremendous improvement in sound and it allows your receiver to power the rest of the channels with more ease....

i had the priviledge of hearing this amplifier in the designers house here in minnesota... outstanding amp!!! i recommend it very highly.... i compared it on the same speakers (dali MS-5) with my own carver professional ZR1000 digital amp and it sounded very, very close to my amp - maybe even a little better!!! if i had room on my checking account i would have left with one of the blue diamond amps that day...

i will also concur that the carver ZR amplifiers work very well with klipsch speakers... as many of you know - i power my KLF-30's with a stock ZR1000.... simply the best amp i have ever heard on my speakers!!! if i had the cash (or the room on my credit cards) i would buy the ZR1600 in a flash and move my ZR1000 to power my surrounds!!! good luck with your sale!!!

---------------- On 5/10/2005 12:32:51 AM hooting_monkey wrote: Hey I was wondering what you all thought about this: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F004%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=31%2D5038 It's just gonna be driving a pair of SB-1s off my computer, so it isn't a big deal if it isn't the best sound possible. ---------------- before i would buy ANY onkyo receiver..... i would get one of these for $189 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64451&item=7320685307&rd=1 Crown XLS202 amp.... 145 watts per channel of real power with excellent sound and the ability to handle low impedance loads there is a user over on AVS forum that uses four of the next model up in this series to power his THX ultra klipsch speakers (the XLS402) Specifications The following applies to units in Stereo mode with 8-ohm loads and rated input sensitivity unless otherwise specified. Performance Sensitivity (volts RMS) for full rated power at 4 ohms, XLS-202: 0.725 XLS-402: 1.025 XLS-602: 1.26. Frequency Response (at 1 watt) 20 Hz to 20 kHz: ±0.75 dB. Phase Response (degrees at 1 watt) at 10 Hz: ?10. at 20 kHz: +19. Signal-to-Noise Ratio (20 Hz to 20 kHz) A-weighted, below rated power: > 100 dB. No weighting, below rated power: > 95 dB. Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) at full bandwidth power, from 20 Hz to 1 kHz: < 0.5%. Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) (60 Hz and 7 kHz at 4:1) from full rated output to ?40 dB: < 0.3%. Damping Factor (8 ohm) 10 Hz to 400 Hz: >200. Crosstalk (below rated power) at 1 kHz: ?82 dB. at 20 kHz: ?58 dB. Voltage Gain (at maximum output): 31 dB. Power Load Impedance: Safe with all types of loads. Rated for 2 to 8 ohms in Stereo, 8 ohms in Bridge-Mono. AC Line Voltages Available (±10%): 120VAC, 60 Hz and 230VAC, 50 Hz. Controls Level: Two front-panel, black rotary level controls, one for each channel. Power: Front-panel switch; on when in the UP position. Circuit Breaker: Provides overload protection. Indicators Clip: Two front-panel red LEDs, one for each channel, illuminate when the channel?s output signal is being overdriven. Power: Green front-panel LED indicates amplifier has been turned on and AC power is available. Fault: Yellow front-panel LED illuminates when amplifier is in protect mode. Also illuminates briefly during normal power-up when amplifier is first switched on. Input/Output Input Connectors: One per channel; back-panel three-pin female XLR input connectors. Input Impedance: (nominally balanced, nominally unbalanced): 20 k ohms, 10 k ohms. Output Connectors: Two 4-pole Speakon® connectors (one per channel) and two pairs of 5-way binding posts; accepts banana plugs, spade lugs or bare wire. (European models do not accept banana plugs.) DC Output Offset (shorted input): ±10 millivolts. Output Signal: Stereo, unbalanced, two-channel. Protection XLS Series amplifiers provide extensive protection, including output current limiting, DC protection, circuit breaker, and special thermal protection for the unit?s transformers. Construction Ventilation: Flow-through ventilation from front to back. Cooling: Internal heat sinks with forced-air cooling for rapid, uniform heat dissipation. Air Volume Requirements (per minute per unit): 80.15 ft³ (2.27 m³). Dimensions: EIA Standard 19-inch (48.3-cm) rack mount width (EIA RS-310-, 3.5-inch (8.9-cm) height and 14-inch (35.6-cm) depth behind the mounting surface.

---------------- On 5/10/2005 4:07:47 PM shooter67 wrote: a high powered amp? I understand why they would sound better at high voulmes but at low to medium volumes it would make since that they would sound the same wether you were pushing 100 ar 200 watts. ---------------- most high power amps can handle the impedance dip in the lower register than many low powered amps the RF-7's dip down to 2.8 ohms in the bass region..... receivers and low powered amps that cannot handle that impedance will sound noticibly infereior to an amp that is designed to handle very low impedance loads

found this interesting article on amplifier power and required headroom..... Why Amplifiers Often Run Out of Power Where It's Needed Most -- for Peak Dynamics To better understand amplifier dynamic headroom, we need to look at dynamic range, and how we experience it in everyday life. On a hike in the woods, most of us know the soft rustling sound of leaves in a tree produced by a gentle breeze, a sound that measures perhaps 20 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at most. And at one time or another we've experienced the sound of an orchestra or brass band in a concert hall at 100 dB SPL (or more), or of an amplified rock band at 120 dB (the latter is the maximum SPL permitted by law in a performance in a public venue). Those levels represent the extremes in dynamics that our ears can routinely register. If we were suddenly transported from that idyllic spot in the woods (20 dB SPL) to the rock concert (120 dB SPL), our ears would register a dynamic range of 100 dB. Recall that 1 decibel (dB) represents the smallest detectable change in loudness, and that we subjectively perceive a 6-to-10-dB increase in loudness as sounding "twice as loud." What is remarkable, then, is the range in loudness that our sense of hearing can encompass without pain. In fact, our ears can accept even higher levels--a jet engine at 75 feet away measures about 140 dB SPL--before the threshold of pain is reached, but for the purposes of reproducing music or movies at home, let's confine our discussion to the dynamics of musical sounds. To give you some perspective on music playback in the home, "quiet" music would fall in the 75-dB range, whereas "quite loud" music would measure about 85 dB SPL at your favorite spot on the couch. For purposes of illustration, let's go back to our example of listening to a recording of a solo concert-grand piano of Chopin piano works at average levels of 76 to 86 dB, using a pair of M80ti loudspeakers at a distance of 12 feet. According to our previous calculations, this would require perhaps 1 watt per channel of amplifier power, a modest demand for even the least expensive A/V receiver or small amplifier. If the pianist on the CD was playing Chopin's Grand Polonaise, however, and one of those spectacular chords in the bass octaves of the piano comes along, your amplifier and speakers will suddenly have to produce levels of 96 or 100 dB SPL without distorting, because Chopin's piano works have sudden and extreme changes in musical dynamics. Remember that a 10-dB increase in subjective loudness ("twice as loud") demands ten times as much power, or in our example, 10 watts, a level any receiver or amp will easily produce. But if it were a real-life orchestra playing at full tilt, and you wanted to reproduce the illusion in your living room of standing next to that grand piano, then peaks of 109 dB would be required. So getting from 96 dB to 106 dB will require ten times as much power again (10 x 10) or 100 watts per channel. The goal, remember, is real-life reproduction of that grand piano, so now we only need 3 dB more (subjectively "somewhat louder") to hit 109 dB in the living room. But twice as much power is required for a 3-dB increase (100 watts x 2 = 200 watts). All of a sudden our A/V receiver or amplifier has run out of power! Of course, it's just a brief peak, lasting perhaps 200 milliseconds (one-fifth of a second), but the amplifier must have sufficient reserves of power to properly reproduce that momentary peak without distorting. If the amplifier has 3 dB of dynamic headroom, it will make it, and output the required 200 watts per channel for a fraction of a second, with no clipping and no distortion. But the truth is that most A/V receiver amplifiers have little or no dynamic headroom, so the receiver runs out of power, the distortion rises, and audible distortion intrudes, ever-so-briefly. The piano then "sounds too loud," to our ears because of the nasty distortion components, so we turn down the volume just short of our goal, because our amp didn't have enough dynamic headroom to handle the instantaneous peak power requirement. If your speakers are 3 dB less sensitive than the M80ti's, or you are another three feet back, then twice as much power (400 watts) again would be needed to hit that goal of 109 dB SPL. It doesn't tax our arithmetic skills to realize that aiming for rock concert peak sound levels of 115 dB (if the neighbors could stand it), is beyond our capabilities. Most of our amplifiers and receivers do not have enough dynamic headroom to deliver this kind of power output without sounding strained. (To finish the example, using M80ti's to reach 115 dB at 12 feet would require 6 dB more output, or four times the power that the 109-dB level required, so 800 watts per channel would be needed.) How do we get that dynamic headroom into our amplifier? To answer that, we need to look at power, and how an amplifier outputs power in watts. Power in watts is the product of voltage, and current, flowing into a resistance (the loudspeaker). Voltage is the driving force, like water pressure in a hose, and it works with current, which is analogous to the rate of water flow. If the hose has greater diameter--or the speaker has less resistance to the flow of electricity, in which case it would be 4 ohms or less, rather than 8 ohms--then the amplifier voltage pushes more current through the output transistors and produces more "power." (We assume the intervening speaker cables have insignificant resistance of less than 0.3 ohms, easily achievable by using 12-gauge cables.) In many respects, it's easier to design an amplifier with big reserves of dynamic headroom to drive 4-ohm speakers, because the voice coils have fewer windings, hence less resistance to the flow of current. With 8-ohm speakers, you are wasting more potentially usable power in heat. Nevertheless, that power has to come from someplace, and in amplifiers it's supplied by the transformer (which connects to your wall outlet) and by capacitors, which store up the reserve electrical energy from the transformer in "joules." According to Axiom electronics R&D engineer Tom Cumberland, the source of good dynamic headroom in an amplifier "comes from having a transformer with a high-flux core that measures up to 13,000 gauss--if it's any greater, the transformer will buzz--but the higher the flux in the core, the more efficient the transformer is. That will give you lots of sustained current and instantaneous current, which is then dumped into the power-supply capacitors. So the better the transformer and the better and larger the power-supply capacitors, then the better the dynamic headroom is. "The problem with many amplifiers and A/V receivers designed for economy (the most watts for the dollar) is that they make the transformer just big enough to produce the voltage output they need , and just big enough capacitors to supply the sustained, continuous voltage and current they need for continuous power, and then the amplifiers quit, so those amplifiers have no real headroom. On top of this, the power may be calculated to be the rated output for one channel at full power and the other five at 1/8 power. So a 100-watt six-channel A/V receiver actually only has 162.5 watts of total power or 27 watts per channel with all channels driven. The better amp builders, who design for performance (reproductive accuracy for the dollar) rather than economy, will install these big transformers with huge capacitors, so then they have all these joules of energy in reserve to produce the dynamics necessary for the music." Another important factor in dynamic headroom is that the output transistors must be very tough, and there have to be enough of them, to handle these instantaneous high-current conditions, because a great deal of heat is generated very quickly. If the transistors aren't of sufficient quality, they'll be pushed outside of the "SOA" (safe operating area) and fail. And that may happen because there isn't enough heat-sinking to keep the output devices cool under these very dynamic conditions. One hugely important factor we've ignored so far in this discussion is whether the speakers (and the individual drivers) receiving these 200-watt or 400-watt instantaneous bursts of power from an amplifier capable of 3 dB or more of dynamic headroom can handle the peaks without significant distortion. We already know that the M80ti's are tested up to 1,200 watts of input power, but many speakers when confronted with spikes of power input may suffer something called "dynamic compression." What happens is that the sudden peak of input power pushes the driver voice coil beyond the region of magnetic flux, so the voice coil--essentially the "motor" of a loudspeaker driver--loses energy and becomes non-linear. This means it stops producing greater output levels, it can't track the incoming signal accurately, and even the driver's frequency response changes. (Author's note: During years of participating in double-blind testing of speakers at Canada's National Research Council and publishing the results in Sound & Vision Canada magazine, which I edited, Dr. Floyd Toole introduced a special curve on our charts called a dynamic compression curve, which illustrated the change in a speaker's frequency response under very high power input levels. Unfortunately, it was not well understood by readers, so I stopped publishing the compression curve, but the phenomenon exists with all speakers at some level.) Fortunately for Axiom, our speakers have fairly prodigious peak power-handling capabilities with little or no dynamic compression exhibited, but while the 140-dB maximum peak levels may remain elusive, it is possible using amplifiers with sufficient dynamic headroom to achieve highly realistic peak dynamics in a living room. The limitation is not in the software. As most readers know, even the two-channel 16-bit CD has a practical dynamic range of a bit less than 96 dB, and the newer formats--DVD-Audio and SACD--have spectacular dynamics. A 24-bit recording has 6 dB of dynamic range for each bit, so the potential dynamic range of these recordings is 144 dB (24 bits x 6 dB), more than enough to contain the dynamics of any known musical instruments or instrumental groups. And our home theater multichannel processors, Dolby Digital 5.1 and dts, have dynamic-range capabilities similar to the CD format. In future issues of the AudioFile we'll look at the history and use of dynamic compression in studio and live recordings, and how in some ways those practices that were so common and necessary in the era of the vinyl LP and analog tape recording have persisted and may account for losses of fidelity in modern digital recordings. The real challenge that lies ahead is to design amplifiers and receivers capable of delivering huge instantaneous peak power output without distortion. Only then will our reproduced music and movie soundtracks not sound "too loud," and we'll sink back and revel in the thrilling dynamics that we've all experienced at one time or another with live music. From all this, you can see the huge power requirements inherent in reproducing real-life acoustic sound levels in average or big rooms. The M80ti's are tested to levels of 1,200 watts of input power so they come very close. But the truth is that if we are seeking real-life acoustic sound levels in our listening rooms, there's a very persuasive argument for very large, powerful amplifiers. And if your speakers are less sensitive (and many are), then the power demands rise even more dramatically. Sizeable rooms and greater listening distances will also increase power demands tremendously. Moreover, what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most of our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom. It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud." The lesson in this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels. by Alan Lofft (bio), Axiom Audio (reprinted with permission) http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109459.html

---------------- On 5/4/2005 5:25:01 PM AZNracerx1989 wrote: How much do La Scalas cost and where do they sell it? the room is around 20x20 but with alot of curves and stuff... so it wont sound good everywhere.. but i am only looking to make it sound good in the listening area another question... Do the Klipsch rf-7's compare to the JBL Northridge E100 by any chance? The Northridge E100 looks much bigger ---------------- JBL northridge E100 41.00 inches x 12.13 inches x 14.56 inches Klipsch RF-7 DIMENSIONS: Height: 45" (115cm) Width: 11.6" (29.7cm) Depth:16" (41cm) soundwise - NO comparison... the RF-7's are a pair of $2000 speakers that sounds like a $5000 pair of speakers and the JBL E100's are a $1000 pair of speakers that sound like a $700 to $800 pair of speakers...... IMHO additionally - the JBL's have a sensitivity of only 91 db SPL - 1 watt of power at 1 meter compared to the 102 db SPL of the RF-7's.... you will need about 4 times the power to get the same levels using the E100's compared to the RF-7's

---------------- On 5/4/2005 9:59:54 AM wangdang wrote: What jerk-water dealer screwed you so badly on the re-stocking fee? The rest of us would probably want to make certan we never go there. This sort of money-grubbing is what really burns me up about some of the newer so-called high-end audio stores. A reliable dealer should know things sound different in the home than in the store and should offer in-home trial. Folks like that should not be authorized to carry a line backed by the heritage of PWK. ---------------- even the "semi-big box" store - ultimate electronics has a 30 day no questions asked 100% refund policy....

---------------- On 5/3/2005 9:16:34 PM jack08501 wrote: Hello, I am new to in wall home theater, and I am setting one up in my basement as we speak. I am going to use in-wall speakers for all five channels and I have narrowed my search down to Klipsch and Polk. System 1- Klipsch R-5800-W for front and center speakers, R-5650-W for the rear surrounds. System 2- Polk TC265i for the front and center, TC65i for the rear surrounds. One of my questions is if you think the Klipsch R-5800-W will work well as a center channel when flipped on its side. The advantage I see with the Polk is that the TC265i sets up on its side like a traditional center channel. Does this make a difference? BTW- My room size is 19X18, I have a dedicated sub and a Denon Receiver. Thanks! Jack ---------------- welcome to the forum Jack!!! and you ask your question on the klipsch forum and you expect what kind of answer??? i have heard the klipsch inwalls and i think they are very good for inwall speakers.... polk has never impressed me with their sound... in ANY of their speakers... IMHO...

---------------- On 5/4/2005 6:29:37 AM Fish wrote: I think the bottom line is those of us that really like the 7s just have to realize that not everyone on the planet will,I don't understand it but..... ---------------- very true.... but listening to RF-7's on an older yamaha receiver or a current onkyo receiver hardly does them justice before i would have eaten a 15% restock fee and ONLY received store credit i would have investigated more options

A guy walks up to a beautiful woman in a bar and asks if she'd have sex with a strange man for a million dollars? She says yes and then he offers her twenty bucks to have sex with him. "What kind of woman do you think I am?" she protests. "We've already established that," he rejoins, "Now we're just haggling over price."

---------------- On 5/2/2005 2:59:08 PM Rivendell61 wrote: And how come my links do not click?? ---------------- you need to be in "rich text" to post links that click.... when you are in the posting screen - click on the the button that says "Use Rich Text" then when you post a link that you copied from a browser address bar - it will "click" directly from your post on the forum as for their "explanations"..... it sounds almost like a cable company describing how their power cables sound so much better than a generic power cable.... lots of fluff - but no real substance and the bit about their "140 watts will sound better than a linear amplifier's 140 watts" is just total b.s. it might be a great little 100 watt amp..... but they are trying to push it as being much more..... i don't buy it

---------------- On 5/2/2005 1:10:45 PM thirdeye wrote: Well I now know the secrete to huge soundstage, no Fatique and the best vocals never getting out of control in your face, its Called SUPER HIGH CURRENT amp, I now run Over 100amps per channel peak on mono blocks, nothing to do with wattage, it could be 10 or 100watts and not be important for the output on the 7's they are plenty efficient to run on next to nothing, but the HIGH current is pheonaminal with the Horns, they have full control of the woofers and smooth the mids to liquid at Level Zero to Very rediculous volume without lossing the Finess.. just my opinion after going thru many trials and errors over the past few weeks with the 7's, However this of course being High current designs come at pretty high costs, but comprable to good tubes in cost. Oh and as mentioned an amp stable down to 2 OHM is almost a must to drag out the best of these speakers, but that should be automatic with higher end amps, mine are stable to 1/2 an Ohm so I could literally short the speaker wires together and never heat up or shut it down unless left for like 20 mins that way. ---------------- what brand and model of amplifiers are you using? ...mine are stable to 1/2 an Ohm so I could literally short the speaker wires together and never heat up or shut it down unless left for like 20 mins that way. uhhh...... no

---------------- On 5/2/2005 11:34:01 AM colterphoto1 wrote: uh, turn down the treble? thanks for perpetuating the YAMAHA SUCKS theory guys. ---------------- an OLDER Yamaha receiver with klipsch speakers is a MISMATCH to say the least!!! have you heard an OLDER Yamaha receiver with any klipsch speakers??? i have - was not a pleasant experience in the least! new Yamaha models work very well and no longer have the problem like the OLD Yamaha receivers used to have when used with klipsch

i have some problems with the power ratings and their "explanantion" http://www.nuforce.com/products.htm and then to try to "explain" why only a 100 watts no matter what the impedance..... Is NuForce's 140W amplifier less or more powerful than a linear solid state or tube amplifier rated for 140W? In terms of reproducing the dynamics and headrooms of music, the more power the better. The commonly accepted measurement is to rate the output power when the amplifier clips with a 1% THD. Now, what is clipping? Clipping occurs in a linear amplifier when its output signal tries to exceed the limits of its power supply voltage. In a linear amplifier using transistors and bulky a transformer/rectifier, the storage capacitor is recharged only once every 8.33 milliseconds, and its voltage is only slightly above the maximum output voltage, so it could clip rather easily. To put it simply, it has very little headroom. With tube amplifiers, the supply voltage is very high, typically 300 to 600V. Therefore even though tube amplifiers have higher overall distortion, perceptively, they sound more 'powerful'. NuForce's amplifier is a switching amplifier designed with lots of headroom, so that there is no clipping at its rated 140W. Its 140W is perceptively better sounding than a 140W linear amplifier. b.s. it is a 100 watt amplifier.... notice how they keep referring to it as a 140 watt amp