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robert_kc

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  1. My goal for the sound quality of recorded classical music played via my home hi-fi systems is to have the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house where classical music is performed live, with no electronics involved (i.e., no sound reinforcement system). If 6L6GC tubes help me achieve that goal, then c'est la vie.
  2. I live in a modest size house that is 98 years old. No large “man cave” or dedicated home theater. I choose to have original artwork on my walls, not foam panels. My point is that my listening rooms “are what they are”. (With that said, I have oriental rugs covering most of the hardwoods, and there’s plenty of furniture in the rooms. IOW, the acoustics aren’t overly “live”.) With that in mind, following are my thoughts in response to this thread’s topic: “What alters sound more?” #1 The Recording (Which Requires a Compatible Player) For classical music, IME/O the most satisfying audio-only recordings are modern performances/recordings (i.e., performances recorded in the last dozen years or so) that were captured and mastered in multi-channel hi-res digital (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered on a Pure Audio Blu-ray disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.1, or an SACD disc that features multi-channel DSD. I find the audio quality of such recordings the most satisfying because these modern recording technologies (played via a top-quality tube-based surround-sound system) do the best job of creating the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house. The recording medium that I find most satisfying overall for classical music is a Blu-ray (or Ultra HD Blu-ray) audio/video disc, however that’s a separate topic. Which recording formats are relevant to you depends on the genre(s) of music you enjoy. If you solely listen to vintage recordings, then you’re limited by vintage recording technology (i.e., no high-def video, and no hi-res multi-channel audio). I’m fortunate because for the classical music I love there are many modern hi-res multi-channel performances/recordings, including audio-only and audio/video. (This, of course, requires a universal player that supports multi-channel Blu-ray and SACD. I use Oppo universal players with built-in audiophile-grade multi-channel DACs, such as the Oppo UDP-205.) #2 Loudspeakers You can’t defy physics. If your goal is to create the illusion that you’re in the symphony hall or opera house hearing a performance of a large-scale orchestral work or opera, and you’re listening to modern hi-res uncompressed recordings, then you need “big boy” speakers. How big depends on the size of your listening room. (OTOH, if you listen to music with little dynamic range (whether its heavy-metal or little-girl-with-a-guitar), then the demands on the speakers will be less, assuming that you listen at a sane volume level in an average size room.) #3 Amplifiers That Have Synergy with the Speakers For my various Klipsch speakers, I prefer tube amps, because this pairing is good at reproducing the natural timbre of orchestral instruments – AND an orchestra’s dynamic range. Generally, my favorite tube amps for Klipsch employ 6L6GC. (However, this can vary.) #4 Subwoofers Subwoofers can be useful for creating the illusion of being in the symphony hall, by augmenting the frequency range, and also potentially augmenting the overall dynamic range - assuming that the subwoofer’s crossover is before the main amp and speakers (which is the case with my Oppo UDP-205). Have you ever heard the mighty “WHACK” of a bass drum, and Mahler hammer, in a symphony hall? Pipe organ?
  3. My answer: It depends on what you listen to. I mostly play multi-channel Blu-ray and SACD discs for classical music. And, I sometimes play Blu-ray discs for Hollywood movies. IMO/IME, the best audio quality for classical recordings involves modern performances/recordings (i.e., performances recorded in the last 15 years or so) that were captured and mastered in multi-channel hi-res digital (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered on a disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.1 (e.g., Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray), or an SACD disc that features multi-channel DSD. Here’s an outstanding example of the benefit of multi-channel Blu-ray discs for classical music: I have 5 hi-fi systems, 4 of which are multi-channel. I’ll point out that I do not have wimpy center channel speakers. In one of my systems, the center is a Klipsch RF-7II. In two of my systems, the center is a Klipsch RC-64III. It’s easy for me to judge the content of the center channel vs. mains, because I can independently control the mains vs. center. (They’re driven by different amps.) IME/IMO, for the classical music that I love, the mains deliver most of the music. IME/IMO, the subwoofers are very important for large scale orchestral music, and some Hollywood movies. IME/IMO, for Hollywood movies, while the center delivers most of the dialog, the mains are still very important. Bottom line, IME/IMO the main L&R speakers are important, and I respectfully disagree with your assertion that “Those Big mains are a waste of money”, and that “The center rules all the other speakers.” IME/IMO, the surround speakers are usually least important. For classical music, the surround speakers usually play hall sounds such as applause. For Hollywood movies, IMO surround speakers are mostly gimmickry – however the “Echo Game” in “House of Flying Daggers” is pretty cool via Blu-ray’s surround-sound. FWIW, following is an abbreviated description of my multi-channel systems that provide the basis for my opinions: TV room: Main front left & right speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F. Center: Klipsch RC-64III. Single rear: Klipsch RP-502S. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source is an Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings. I generally use vintage tube amps for music: Scott 399, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC240 or McIntosh MC225. I use solid-state amps for movies (and summertime): NAD C375BEE, and an NAD D 3045. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp. Basement: Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra and Klipsch R-115SW (connected via Y-adaptor). Source: Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings. Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, Fisher KX-200, Scott 296, Pilot SA-260, Scott LK150, Altec 353A, Kenwood KR-9050. Living room: Stereo speakers are Snell Type CV. Center: Klipsch RC-64III. Single rear: RP-502S. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source components are Oppo BDP-105 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs (and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE equipped with a new Shibata stylus. Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD C 162 pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 that can drive the center channel and single rear speaker or JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room. Bedroom: Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch WF-35. SVS SB-2000 Pro subwoofer. Source is an Oppo BDP-95 for playing Pure Audio Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings. (No TV.) Fisher 500C drives the left & right speakers. Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver) drives the center speaker.
  4. P.S. Assuming that you won’t be disturbing your neighbors, perhaps a Bluetooth “party speaker” might meet your needs? https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Bluetooth+party+speaker I have no experience with (or interest in) “party speakers”. With that said, if no neighbors are near, what about this? https://www.amazon.com/JBL-PartyBox-Premium-Wireless-Bluetooth/dp/B07TJXHG14/ref=psdc_689637011_t2_B07VHTF419?th=1
  5. OP: If you plan to use your music system outdoors in a public campground, I respectfully advise against disturbing the peace with high output speakers. As another member suggested, perhaps a better choice in a campground would be a small table-top Bluetooth speaker placed near you, so that you’re not disturbing your campground neighbors who wish to enjoy peace and quiet. OTOH, if no one else is within miles, then “let her rip”. However, you’ll need the right speaker for the job. I have no experience with “jamming” outdoors, so my question is this: Are you asking an inexpensive consumer bookshelf speaker to do the job of a commercial-grade speaker? Would you be better served by employing Klipsch Pro speakers for your use case? Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable about commercial speakers can suggest a suitable product. Would the KI-396-SMA-II be more suitable for the OP’s use case vs. an RP-600M? Other suggestions?
  6. robert_kc

    SOLD

    This is a DeWALD M-1200 integrated amp that employs EL84/6BQ5 x 4, 12AX7 x 4, and 6V4/EZ80 (rectifier tubes) x 2. According to radiomuseum.org, this amp was introduced in 1959. I’m told that this amp has the same chassis as a Lafayette LA90. My wish is to provide this amp free-of-charge to someone who will restore it to proper operating condition, and enjoy it for their personal use (or pass it on to another music lover). The amp is offered without any tubes. This DeWALD integrated tube amp was given to me by the original owner, with the understanding that I would harvest the tubes, and dispose of the chassis as I see fit. I’ll consider any proposals from members who would take this amp free-of-charge and electronically restore it (e.g., presumably replace critical capacitors, etc.). The original owner told me that the amp stopped working after he accidently left it on for a week. (I don’t know how long ago that was.) Some gunk on the inside of the bottom plate, and discoloration on top of the chassis, suggests that the amp probably overheated. (The chassis was covered with a very thick layer of dust when I received it.) I’m not a technician. All I’ve done is harvest the tubes, and shop vac the top layer of dust off the chassis, and I made one pass wiping the top of the chassis with isopropyl alcohol. (The photos are after this superficial cleaning.) I prefer pickup in Kansas City. (I suggest a designated “internet exchange area” in a police station parking lot.) I’d rather not go to the trouble and expense of packaging and shipping this amp. My hope is that this amp will deliver beautiful music once again! Anyone interested? Robert
  7. FWIW, here’s what I do. Terminate the speaker cables with banana plugs. Wire the amplifiers' speaker connections with banana jacks. In the attached photo, you can see the banana jack configuration in my TV room, where I have 4 speakers (main L&R, center, single rear), and 7 stereo amps. (Unfortunately, the jack panel that I use appears to be discontinued.) With the amplifiers powered off, you simply plug whichever speakers you want into whichever amp you want. I could explain how I handle input switching, however I don’t own an AVR, so my method isn’t relevant to you. (Does your AVR have pre-amp outputs that you can connect to your tube amp? Again, I have no experience with AVRs.)
  8. If you drive a solid-state amp into clipping (i.e., drive it past its power rating), it might produce a signal that sounds harsh, and might damage the loudspeaker’s high frequency driver. That’s why it can be useful for a solid-state amp to have ample “headroom” – i.e., more power than is needed most of the time. Some solid-state amps address this issue by providing clipping protection circuitry. In some cases, the user can enable or disable this feature. For example, for my NAD C375BEE, there is a rear panel switch: SOFT CLIPPING™: Enables NAD's proprietary Soft Clipping circuitry on all channels. At [ON] position, Soft Clipping gently limits the output of the C 375BEE to minimize audible distortion should the amplifier be over-driven. Soft Clipping may simply be left ON at all times to reduce the likelihood of audible distortion from excessive volume settings. However, for critical listening and to preserve optimum dynamics, you may wish to defeat it by setting this switch to "OFF" position. The SOFT CLIPPING indicator on the front panel will illuminate when the C 375BEE is in Soft Clipping mode. (I’ve never seen the SOFT CLIPPING indicator on my C 375BEE illuminate – i.e., it’s never exceeded its 150 wpc rating.) OTOH, generally tube amps can be driven to their maximum output without producing nasty distortion. Therefore, for a given set of speakers, a tube amp does not need to have a power rating as high as a solid-state amp in order to deliver satisfactory results, with all other factors being equal. The following equipment configuration in my basement system sounds great, and provides “plenty of punch” (average size room) when playing a CD of big band music: Source: Oppo UDP-205 universal player Amp: My Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO tube amp equipped with 6L6GC output tubes produces approximately 8 wpc Stereo Speakers: Klipsch RF-7 II Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra and Klipsch R-115SW are connected via Y-adaptor to the Oppo UDP-205 (i.e., the Oppo’s bass management feature off-loads the power-hungry bass from the main amp and speakers). Here’s an example of a CD that sounds great with the above configuration: I’d be interested in a listening test between this configuration (i.e., 8 wpc SEP tube amp) vs. a 500 wpc solid-state amp when playing a popular music CD via Klipsch RF-7III in an average size listening room, at sane listening levels. OTOH, I love classical music, which can have much more dynamic range and frequency range than most pop music. When I play large-scale classical music via my basement system, I prefer push/pull tube amps because IMO the configuration described below is excellent at creating the illusion of being in the symphony hall (i.e., natural timbre, full dynamics, full frequency range). When playing the DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio track of a modern Blu-ray recording of large-scale classical music via my basement system, the sound quality is excellent, and I’ve never had a need for more power. Source: Oppo UDP-205 universal player Speakers: Left & Right main speakers: Klipsch RF-7II. Center: Klipsch RF-7II. Single rear: Klipsch RF-7. For classical music, I use one vintage stereo push/pull tube amp for the left & right main speakers, and a second stereo tube amp for the center and single rear speaker. My choices are: Scott 272, Scott 222C, Fisher KX-200, Scott 296, Pilot SA-260, Scott LK150, Altec 353A, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO. The power rating of the push/pull stereo tube amps ranges from approximately 20wpc – 58wpc. The SEP amp produces 8 wpc. Here’s an example of a Blu-ray that sounds great with the above configuration when using push-pull tube amps rated at approximately 30 wpc: I’d be interested in a listening test between this configuration (i.e., 30 wpc push/pull tube amps) vs. 500 wpc solid-state amps when playing modern Blu-ray classical recordings via Klipsch RF-7III in an average size listening room, at sane listening levels. (In my basement system I currently have a Kenwood KR-9050 that is rated at 200wpc. (I used to have a Marantz 2325 in this system.) For classical music, IME/O I prefer tube amps.) Switching gears to my TV room system (small room), when I use my NAD C375BEE solid-state amp in the following configuration for Hollywood movies, I’ve never had a need for more power: Source: Oppo UDP-205 universal player Speakers: Left & Right main speakers: Klipsch Palladium P-37F. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. Center: Klipsch RC-64III. Single rear: Klipsch RP-502S. Amp for left & right main speakers: NAD C375BEE (>150 W at rated THD, 20 Hz-20 kHz, both channels driven) Amp for center and single rear speaker: NAD D 3045 (60 W, ref. 20 Hz-20 kHz at 0.03% THD, both channels driven) OTOH, when I play large-scale classical music in my TV room system, I prefer tube amps, because IME/O they are better are reproducing the natural timber of orchestral instruments, and they are better at creating the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall. With tube amps, I can listen for hours without experiencing listener fatigue. Here’s the tube amps that I have available in my TV room system: Scott 399, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC240 or McIntosh MC225. (In my TV room system, I used to have the following equipment installed: Pioneer SX-1980, Pioneer SX-1080, Pioneer SX-1010, and Marantz 2285B. I sold them all, because IME/O they don’t do as good of a job as my tube amps of creating the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall. With the solid-state amps I’d find myself turning the music off after a few minutes. With tube amps, I find myself listening for hours.) OP: FWIW, I believe that the following questions are important: What genre(s) of music do you listen to? Do you also use this system for Hollywood movies? If so, what genre(s)? How large is you listening room? How loud do you like to listen? What are your goals for your hi-fi system? For example: To create the illusion of attending a live performance of a classical composition in a purpose-built world-class symphony hall? Or, to create a small-scale simulacrum of a live performance? For example, is your relationship with music that you want “background listening” at low volume levels? Do you want to listen to a compressed recording that plays unobtrusively while you do other tasks, such as doing daily chores? Or, simply for their hi-fi system to “sound good”, to your ears. For example, sparkling highs? Thunderous bass? Rattle the windows? Freakish pinpoint localization of instruments? Damage your hearing? Other? Which of the following recording formats do you plan to use? LP CD (Stereo-only. No multi-channel (e.g., 5.1) capability.) DVD (stereo and 5.1) DVD-Audio (stereo and 5.1) SACD (stereo and 5.1) Pure Audio Blu-ray (DTS-HD MA 5.1, plus stereo track, and sometimes additional audio tracks) Blu-ray (DTS-HD MA 5.1, plus stereo track, and sometimes additional audio tracks) Ultra HD Blu-ray (DTS-HD MA 5.1, plus stereo track, and sometimes additional audio tracks) Hi-res downloads - 24bit/192kHz PCM (IME, stereo), Hi-res DSD (stereo and 5.1) The reason that I ask is that there’s a big difference between playing an LP of a “little girl with a guitar” in a small listening room, vs. playing the DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio track of a Blu-ray to deliver in a large listening room an experience that approximates the live performance of Mahler Symphony 2 (which has tremendous dynamic range), and Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 in C minor (aka “Organ Symphony”) which has tremendous frequency range. I strongly encourage you to audition equipment – and listen for yourself – vs. blindly assuming that “more watts” equate to a more enjoyable listening experience. With all of that said, I can’t imagine an in-home situation where 500 wpc would be indicated for Klipsch RF-7III speakers.
  9. Welcome @stev Here's a link to my discussion about power requirements: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/193845-why-flea-power-is-often-enough/&do=findComment&comment=2529684 My tube amps that produce approximately 30 - 40 wpc work great with my RF-7II for music that has the most demanding dynamic range (i.e., large-scale classical), in an average size listening room. With properly implemented subwoofers, I can achieve near live concert hall dynamic range, and frequency range, with 30 wpc tube amps driving my RF-7II. For big-band music or folk music, my 8wpc single-ended pentode amp sounds great. Unless you have a very large listening room, and/or you're hell-bent on damaging your hearing (and possibly frying your speakers), I suggest that you reconsider the need for bi-amping, and the need for 500wpc. With high sensitivity speakers like the RF-7III, if your goal is to faithfully reproduce the sound of natural instruments (e.g., symphony orchestra), IME/O synergy between the amps and speakers is MUCH more important than using an amp that has an extremely high-power rating. If you want to increase the acoustic output of RF-7III, I suggest that you consider adding a subwoofer with a crossover before the main amp. (My Oppo UDP-205 universal player provides the bass management function, meaning that the power-hungry bass is off-loaded from the main amp and speakers.) With that said, you can achieve great sound from RF-7III without a subwoofer. See my post linked above for more details. If you want to read more discussion on this topic, I suggest that you google something like: power requirement site:community.klipsch.com/ power needed site:community.klipsch.com/
  10. I’d like to point out that some electric guitar aficionados report that they know the sound (i.e., timbre) of a specific guitar, played via a specific amp that is equipped with specific tubes. I respect that – it’s just something that I have no experience with. My experience is listening to live classical concerts, so I have a pretty good idea of the natural sound of a violin, trumpet, double bass, timpani, etc. – and the sound of a string quartet, large scale symphony, choral group, etc. (Of course, there is some variation in instruments, and venues.) Because my memory of how classical music “should sound” is routinely refreshed by virtue of attending approximately 30 classical concerts each season, I can use this memory to assess how well my hi-fi systems are meeting my goal of creating the illusion that I’m in the concert hall. I imagine that aficionados of other music genres could do the same. And, as I’ve said before, I respect that others may have different goals for their hi-fi system.
  11. As I’ve said many times, IMO the genre of music, and vintage of the recording, are relevant to this discussion of LP vs. digital. For a recording of “small-scale” music (e.g., jazz trio) that was recorded in the 1950s or ‘60s, I’m not surprised if some prefer high-quality LP pressings (perhaps an original pressing) played via a high-quality turntable. FWIW, IMO the following statement makes sense: “For the vintage jazz recordings that I love, I prefer my original pressing LPs”. (I’m not an expert on analog deliverables – my understanding is that some prefer RTR tape, some prefer original pressing LPs, and some prefer newer audiophile-grade LPs.) For those who assert that LPs are generally superior to digital, I respectfully suggest two sincere questions: Do they listen to music that has significant dynamic range and frequency range? What is their goal for their hi-fi system? To create the illusion of attending a live performance? To create a small-scale simulacrum of a live performance? Or, simply for their hi-fi system to “sound good”. (FWIW, I think these are all reasonable goals.) I don’t recall hearing anyone claim that an LP of large-scale classical music (e.g., Mahler Symphony 2) is better at creating the illusion of a live performance compared with a modern hi-res recording delivered via Blu-ray’s DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio track. The reason that I often cite Mahler Symphony 2 is the tremendous dynamic range of a live performance in a purpose-built world-class symphony hall. For example, the opening of the fourth movement ("Urlicht") involves an alto operatic soprano singing softly. (In my local symphony hall, neither the orchestra nor the singer uses a sound reinforcement system. From my mid-hall seat, the opening of "Urlicht" is very faint.) OTOH, from my mid-hall seat in my local symphony hall, the unamplified sound of the opening of the fifth movement is so explosively loud as to be almost painful. (Mahler Symphony 2 is sometimes performed with as many as 200 musicians.) The challenge in playing an uncompressed modern state-of-the-art recording is to set the level so that the quiet opening of the fourth movement ("Urlicht") is at a level that creates the illusion of being in the hall at the live performance, without the extremely loud opening of the fifth movement causing the hi-fi system to distort. I’m not a recording engineer. I imagine that an LP of Mahler 2 would have to involve compressed dynamics, and probably restricted low frequency. I imagine that this might result in a pleasant small-scale simulacrum of the live performance. What are the thoughts of LP aficionados? Do any LP aficionados have an LP of Mahler 2 that they think provides excellent audio quality? If so, have you compared it with a modern performance/recording (last dozen years or so) that was captured and mastered in hi-res (e.g., 24bit/192kHZ) multi-channel, and delivered on a Blu-ray disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.0 (or 5.1) surround-sound, and played via a surround-sound system that incorporates “high-end” Klipsch speakers and large subwoofers? Here’s an excellent Blu-ray of Mahler 2: The good news IME is that this recording played via a surround-sound system featuring “high-end” Klipsch speakers and large subwoofers can come close to creating the illusion of being in the symphony hall. IMO my Klipsch speakers paired with 6L6GC tube amps do a good job of reproducing the natural timbre of orchestral instruments. And my surround-sound systems equipped with subwoofers can deliver significant dynamic range and frequency range when playing top-quality Blu-ray recordings. (My Oppo’s subwoofer cross-over is before the main amps, and thereby offloads the power-hungry low frequencies from the main amps and speakers.) As has been discussed before, IMO another issue relevant to LP vs. digital is the concept of what is the “work of art”. For the classical music that I love, the “work of art” was the live performance. For classical music, the artists were the composer, conductor, and orchestra. The music was not created by record producers using electronic tools. I’ve heard Beethoven 9 performed live several times in a world-class purpose-built symphony hall where the sound was 100% natural (i.e., no use of a sound reinforcement system). And I’ve heard many other classical orchestral performances in my local symphony hall, and a number of operas in my local opera house, and many chamber performances in various venues. These experiences form my benchmark for how classical music “should” sound. My goal for the sound quality of recorded classical music played via my home hi-fi systems is to create the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house where the music was performed live and 100% natural. I want inevitable deviations to sound pleasant vs. unpleasant to my ears. I’ve compared more than a dozen recordings of Beethoven Symphony 9, with performances ranging from 1942 – 2015, and recordings delivered via LP, CD, 24bit/96kHz FLAC download, SACD, DVD, and Blu-ray. I prefer modern performances/recordings delivered on Blu-ray’s DTS-HD MA 5.1. (I’m not trivializing vintage recordings that have historic significance. For example, many revere the 1942 Furtwängler performance of Beethoven 9, but let’s be honest – the audio quality is horrible.) My long-winded assessment is on talkclassical.com: https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/question-about-sacd-vs-cd.73864/post-2197583 Beethoven’s music is NOT defined by a particular recording. There’s no such thing as “Beethoven’s recording” of Beethoven Symphony 9. Beethoven lived 200+ years ago – long before recorded music. OTOH, I imagine (I’m not knowable about this) that many Beatles fans want to listen to the Beatles’ recordings (i.e., not a modern band covering Beatles’ songs). In this case, is the “work of art” a particular vintage recording? Do some LP aficionados believe that a particular original pressing LP (mono?) is closest to the original work-of-art? LP vs. digital? IMO, it depends on the genre of music. P.S. As already discussed, there’s the issue of “snap, crackle, pop”. My hat’s off to an LP aficionado who achieves LP playback with no surface noise. P.P.S. Just to show that I’m not opposed to LPs, once a year or so I’ll pull off the shelf and play my vintage LP (which I bought new MANY years ago, and I think is an original pressing) of Maynard Ferguson, “Live at Jimmy's”, “Macarthur Park.” It sounds fabulous, and its smell creates a feeling of nostalgia. Believe it or not, once in a blue moon, I enjoy spinning one of my vintage Patsy Cline LPs. And I occasionally enjoy spinning one of my vintage Bobby Short LPs. I saw Bobby Short perform live at the Café Carlyle (NYC) sometime around 1980. I knew this would be a once in a lifetime experience, and so I went to the Café Carlyle the day before and tipped the maître d' $40, hoping that at least we wouldn’t have a horrible table. When we arrived, the maître d' walked from behind his station and greeted me by name. (Of course, I’d only met him for a few minutes the day before.) My date swooned. We were seated at the VIP table. Bobby Short walked directly to our table and chatted with us for several minutes, as though there was no one else in the room, and there were no time constraints. He was one of the most gracious people I’ve ever met. Then he said: “Well, I guess I should get to work”. He walked a few steps to the piano and started playing. It was a fabulous evening, and I cherish my vintage Bobby Short LPs.
  12. The classical concerts and operas that I attend involve no use of electronics. The sound is 100% natural. There are no electronic instruments. The classical concerts and operas that I attend do NOT use a sound reinforcement system – IOW, the orchestra’s sound and singers’ voices are not amplified. There are a few scenarios where microphones are used in my local symphony hall and opera house: When the symphony orchestra performs pop concerts (e.g., a tribute to the Beatles, or Christmas pop concert), there may be electronic instruments, and singers using a microphone. When musicals (e.g., “Pirates of Penzance”, “West Side Story”) are performed, a sound reinforcement system is typically used. IOW, for a musical, the singers use a microphone. OTOH, opera performances (e.g., “La traviata”, “La boheme”) in my local opera house do NOT use a sound reinforcement system. The orchestra’s sound is not amplified. Opera singers don’t use a microphone. This is one of the key differences between an opera singer and, for example, a Broadway singer. (This is not true of all venues where opera is performed – which is a controversial issue.) If the Executive Director or Conductor makes brief comments before the concert starts, they will use a microphone. All concerts are recorded, which of course involves microphones. I’ve been consistently told by the past and present Executive Director and CEO that when the Symphony performs the Classical Series of concerts that the microphones are used only for recording – not amplifying the sound in the symphony hall. The classical concerts and operas that I attend involve a conductor and orchestra performing live in purpose-built hall. There is no “sound technician aka Audio/Sound Engineer” involved in the live performance.
  13. My benchmark for the sound quality from my hi-fi systems is classical music and opera performed live in its intended venue, where the sound is 100% natural. On average I attend 30 classical concerts each season, including season tickets to the Kansas City Symphony, the Lyric Opera of Kansas City, and the Kansas City Ballet, plus several classical concerts by the Kansas City Chorale, Harriman Jewell Series, and Friends of Chamber Music. In Kansas City, we are very fortunate that benefactors generously donated their money (and talent) to build The Kauffman Center for the Performing Arts, which opened in 2011. The Kauffman Center for the Performing Arts is home to the Kansas City Symphony, the Lyric Opera of Kansas City, and the Kansas City Ballet. (I’m looking forward to the Lyric Opera of Kansas City’s performance of “La Traviata” this Saturday night!) In addition to my tickets for various KC based performing arts organizations, this season I’ll attend a concert at The Kauffman Center’s Helzberg Hall by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra led by Riccardo Muti and featuring Julia Fischer (violin). And I recently attended a wonderful concert in Helzberg Hall by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra featuring Nicola Benedetti (violin). The Kauffman Center for the Performing Arts includes two purpose-built performance venues (i.e., two concert halls in one building): Helzberg Hall (where the Symphony performs), and the Muriel Kauffman Theatre (where the Opera and Ballet perform). Listening to the Kansas City Symphony perform its Classical Series of concerts in Helzberg Hall is an extraordinary experience. The sound is 100% natural - i.e., when the Symphony performs its Classical Series of concerts, there is no use of a sound reinforcement system. (OTOH, when the Symphony performs pop concerts, those concerts may involve use of a sound reinforcement system.) Similarly, there is no use of a sound reinforcement system when the Lyric Opera of KC performs an opera. (OTOH, when the Lyric Opera of KC performs a musical (e.g., “Pirates of Penzance”, “West Side Story”), a sound reinforcement system is typically used. IOW, for a musical the singers use a microphone, whereas opera singers don’t use a microphone.) I also attend classical concerts and recitals in the historic Folly Theater. (I’m anxious to see the Folly after its recent renovation.) This season, I’ll attend concerts at the Folly by Pretty Yende (soprano), Tenebrae (choral ensemble), and Khatia Buniatishvili (piano). I also attend concerts by the Kansas City Chorale in various large churches. My goal for the sound quality of recorded classical music played via my home hi-fi systems is to create the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house where the music was performed live and 100% natural, and for inevitable deviations to sound pleasant vs. unpleasant to my ears. Of course, classical music lovers sometimes must decide which is more important: their perception of performance quality, or audio quality of a recording. Certainly, there are many enjoyable recordings of historic performances. And, recorded music can be enjoyed via many formats, including LP, CD, SACD, DVD-Audio, Pure Audio Blu-ray, DVD, Blu-ray, and Ultra HD Blu-ray. With that said, I greatly prefer modern performances/recordings (last dozen years or so) that were captured and mastered in hi-res (e.g., 24bit/192kHZ) multi-channel, and delivered on a Blu-ray disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.0 (or 5.1) surround-sound. (A few Ultra HD Blu-ray opera recordings are starting to become available.) As I stated in another thread, Blu-ray (and Ultra HD Blu-ray) audio/video provides the following benefits compared with audio-only formats such as Pure Audio Blu-ray and SACD: Video is particularly relevant for visual art forms such as ballet and opera. Additionally, for orchestral concerts I enjoy seeing the conductor and musicians. And Blu-ray enables me to see beautiful concert halls all over the world that I otherwise would have never seen. Blu-ray is extremely valuable in delivering the libretto of an opera on the HDTV screen. (For example, providing an on-screen English translation of an opera sung in Italian.) IME, Blu-ray is capable of delivering richer looking on-screen menus. Blu-ray can provide “bonus materials”, including video interviews, documentaries, and still images. Here’s my thread on talkclassical.com that discusses classical Blu-ray recordings: https://www.talkclassical.com/54011-blu-ray-videos-classical.html My second choice in formats are SACD and Pure Audio Blu-ray that feature hi-res 5.1 surround-sound (but no video). One of my priorities is for the timbre of the orchestra instruments to sound natural. And I want my hi-fi systems to achieve dynamic range and frequency range that approaches the live concert experience. While no hi-fi system can fully recreate the experience of listening to a live performance of large-scale classical music in a world-class purpose-built symphony hall or opera house, IME/O it is possible to come close by using modern Blu-ray DTS-HD MA 5.1 or SACD surround-sound recordings, vintage tube amps, high-end Klipsch speakers, and subwoofers. Here’s a list of four of my five hi-fi systems: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/205306-do-you-believe-in-evolution-stereo-to-multi-channel-home-theater/&do=findComment&comment=2704231 Bottom line: For the classical music I love, IME/O modern performances delivered on Blu-ray or SACD that feature top-quality hi-res multi-channel audio come closer to creating the illusion that I’m in the concert hall compared with CDs and LPs. Moreover, IMO Blu-ray audio/video delivers a significantly more enjoyable overall in-home experience compared with CDs and LPs, particularly for opera and ballet.
  14. My 2 cents: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/205306-do-you-believe-in-evolution-stereo-to-multi-channel-home-theater/&do=findComment&comment=2704162
  15. I agree that different audiophiles have different needs. IMO an audiophile should first focus on the types of recordings that are available for the music (and movies) they like. An audiophile must also decide on the goals for their hi-fi system. For example: Create the illusion that you’re at a live concert? If so, for what genre(s) of music? Low-volume-level, unobtrusive background music? Ear-bleed high-frequency? Thunderous bass? Pinpoint spatial imaging? Other? Of course, different audiophiles may have different constraints, such as room layout, budget, etc. I enjoy classical music and opera. My goal is to create the illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house. My systems are optimized for Blu-ray recordings of classical music and opera. (Several of my systems also perform well for the movies I enjoy.) Different goals, different music (and movie) genres, requirements to support different recording media, and different constraints may mean that a different system configuration is optimal for one audiophile vs. another.
  16. Yes - I agree. For the classical music that I love, there are countless modern performances/recordings (i.e., performances recorded in the last 15 years or so) that were captured and mastered in multi-channel hi-res digital (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered on a disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.1 (e.g., Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray), or an SACD disc that features multi-channel DSD. I've done extensive listening tests to the multi-channel classical recordings that I own, distinguishly the content of each channel. I employ my Oppo UDP-205 (x2), BDP-105, and BDP-95 universal players’ internal audiophile-grade DACS and 5.1 analog audio outputs. Because the rear channels in classical recordings have little content (mostly audience applause), in my 4.1 and 4.2 systems I combine the Oppo’s rear channel outputs via an RCA Y-cable. (Oppo has verified that this is OK.) One vintage stereo tube amp drives the main left & right speakers. Another vintage stereo tube amp drives the center and single rear speaker. My approach may be unorthodox, but it works great. And – most important – it sounds fabulous for the classical music and opera that I love. Two of my systems have matching front, center, and left speakers. Two of my systems each employ a Klipsch RC-64III center channel.
  17. This may be true for some Hollywood movies. However, for multi-channel SACD and Blu-ray classical music recordings, the front Left & Right speakers usually contain most of the music content. The amount of center channel content varies by classical recording. (Sometimes an operatic soprano will be concentrated in the center channel.) The rear speakers usually have very little content in classical recordings - mostly audience applause - and some hall "reverb" sound.
  18. P.S. I corrected the page number in my previous post for instructions for configuring the Oppo BDP-103's "Down Mix Mode" to "Stereo". (Page 68 of the BDP-103 User Manual.) Are you connecting 2 Klipsch RC-7 speakers (which Klipsch marketed as a center channel speaker) to your AVR's front Left & Right speaker terminals? Do you have a center channel speaker connected to your AVR?
  19. If the Nikko Beta II preamp - Crown K1 - KPT-904's are used only for stereo playback, and different front Left & Right speakers (driven by the AVR) are used for multi-channel, then you could connect the preamp to the Oppo's FL & FR analog audio outputs. (Earlier I had misunderstood your configuration.) You have 2 options when you use your Nikko Beta II preamp - Crown K1 - KPT-904's to play a Blu-ray or SACD that features a multi-channel audio track and a stereo track: From the recording's menu, under "Audio Options", select stereo. This will play the stereo downmix that the recording engineer created. Or, You can play the recording's multi-channel audio track and have the Oppo downmix it to stereo. The instructions for downmixing are on page 68 of the Oppo BDP-103 User Manual. I'd be inclined to configure the Oppo's "Down Mix Mode" to "Stereo", in case you forget to select the recording's stereo track. My understanding is that this will NOT affect multi-channel playback via the HDMI connection to you AVR. There is no need for an outboard "optical to RCA converter" (i.e., DAC). The Oppo can downmix audio from 5.1 to stereo. An outboard DAC would compromise the audio quality, as explained in the Notes at the bottom of page 17 of the Oppo BDP-103 User Manual: Due to bandwidth limitations, high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. A reduced resolution version of the same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in their best quality, please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles HDMI audio (see page 11) or use the multi-channel analog outputs if you do not (see page 16). Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACDs, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections. Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD-Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVDAudio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
  20. P.P.S. It would be helpful if you'd describe the amp and speakers you want to use for stereo, vs. multi-channel. Do you want to use the preamp/amp/KPT-904 for stereo and L&R for multi-channel? Or, do you want to use the preamp/amp/KPT-904 only for stereo, and use different L&R speakers (connected to the AVR) for multi-channel?
  21. P.S. The difference between "5.1 L/R" and "stereo" is decided by the recording engineer. For the 5.1 audio track of a movie, the dialog is often concentrated in the center channel. For the stereo track, the dialog is blended into the stereo channels.
  22. Emile, I'm heading out for a while. I'll try to spend more time on this later. For now, I suggest that you read your Oppo BDP-103 User Manual section titled "Audio Processing Setup", which begins on page 67. It states: "The Audio Processing section of the Setup Menu allows you to configure how the player will process audio signals before sending them to the output. In this section, all of the settings only affect the analog audio outputs, with a few exceptions listed in the “Note” section below." I believe this means that if you configure the Oppo to downmix multi-channel audio tracks to stereo, that affects only the analog audio outputs, not HDMI. If you want to play a Blu-ray or SACD using only two speakers (L & R), one option is to play the recording's stereo audio track. Or, if your stereo amp is connected to the Oppo's FL & FR analog audio outputs, you can configure the Oppo to downmix to stereo, as explained on page 68 of your Oppo BDP-103 User Manual. My understanding is that this will not affect HDMI, which you can easily test. I'll check in later.
  23. Most SACD and Blu-ray discs have 2 (or more) audio tracks, e.g., stereo and multi-channel (e.g., 5.1). Some DVDs have stereo and multi-channel audio tracks. The audio track is selected via the recording’s menu. If you’re playing the stereo audio track of a recording, you won’t be missing any content by connecting a stereo amp and speakers to the FL & FR outputs from the Oppo disc player. Presumably the same is true for the pre-outs on your AVR. In both cases this assumes that you have not activated “pseudo-surround-sound” in the unit’s software settings (e.g., DTS Neo 6). OTOH, if you play the 5.1 audio track of a recording (e.g., Blu-ray or SACD), the content of the FL & FR channels will be different from the recording’s stereo track – because it is a different recording mix. If you play the 5.1 audio track without center and rear channel speakers, you will be missing content (e.g., movie dialog). Is your Oppo connected to the AVR via HDMI? I don’t think there would be a problem with connecting a stereo amp and speakers to the AVR’s FL & FR pre-outs, while the AVR’s amps drive the center and rear speakers. My understanding is that this is a fairly common configuration. I have no experience with this. (I don’t own an AVR. I always use the internal DACs and analog audio outputs on my Oppo UDP-205, BDP-105, and BDP-95, for both stereo and multi-channel recordings.) If you are playing a 5.1 recording and driving the center and rear speakers via the AVR, I’d be disinclined to connect the stereo amp to the Oppo’s FL & FR analog audio outputs. Rather, I’d connect the stereo amp to the AVR’s FL & FR analog audio pre-outs (as described in the previous paragraph). My concern (I’m guessing about this) is that there might be different propagation delay via the Oppo’s FL & FR analog audio outputs vs. the AVR’s FL & FR analog audio outputs – IOW the FL & FR channels might be slightly out-of-synch with the center and rear channels. (I’m not sure about this.) Also, the Oppo’s DAC might have a slightly different sound than the AVR’s DAC – which could be good or bad, depending on your perspective. Does this answer your question?
  24. No, I do not “find all music other than symphonies and orchestras, chamber groups, etc., to be distasteful”. I never said that. I intended no offense to anyone in my post on Aug 11. Please help me understand your perspective. For “popular music” recordings, what percentage are a recording of a live performance? What percentage of “pop music” exclusively involves instruments that have known timbre (whether it be a violin, or a specific electric guitar /specific guitar amp / specific vacuum tubes)? OTOH, what percentage of “pop music” involves (some) sounds that were produced, modified, or deliberately distorted via software tools (e.g., DAW software)? What percentage of pop music was created by software tools that combined sounds from different sources – some from musicians playing instruments (possibly performing together, possibly performing at different times) – and some sounds from a synthesizer or DAW plug-in? (Perhaps my earlier use of the term “cobble together” was not the best choice of words. I didn’t intend for this to be negative, or cause offense. Perhaps in my earlier post I should have said “combine” rather than “cobble together”.) For some pop music, if there never was a live performance - what is the consumer to use as a benchmark for how the music delivered via their hi-fi system “should” sound? My intent is NOT to disparage pop music. My intent is simply to bring to light an issue that IMO is relevant for hi-fi systems – i.e., how does the consumer know what is “faithful reproduction” in their home, if the music was partially produced, modified, or deliberately distorted by software tools? What is the natural timbre of a DAW software plug-in? Regarding the topic of this thread, what is the natural localization of instruments if some sounds were added via software tools? What’s the benchmark for how the music should sound in terms of imaging? OTOH/IMO, fans of genres of music that involve natural instruments (e.g., classical) have a clear benchmark for how the music “should” sound. (I attend more than 2 dozen live classical performances every season in purpose-built concert halls.) For my local symphony and opera, the music involves natural instruments that have known timbre, and those natural instruments perform live in a purpose-built venue that involves NO use of a sound reinforcement system. (Of course, there is some deviation in natural instruments and venues.) IMO, every audiophile needs to define their goals for their hi-fi system. For example: “Creates the illusion of a live performance in the symphony hall” … or … “Sounds good”. Whatever floats your boat. I’m not making value judgements about genres of music. I’m just pointing out that IMO issues like “accurate reproduction” and “faithful reproduction” and “accurate imaging” have relatively more or less meaning based on genre of music. My opinion: To each their own regarding the music they like, and their goals for their hi-fi system. I’ve re-read my Aug 11 post. Again, I did not intend for “coble together” to have a negative connotation. Other than that, I don’t understand why my earlier post would offend anyone. Please tell me what you found offensive. I’m also open to hearing from others who believe that I’m mistaken. And I’m interested in hearing from others who disagree with my opinions. I’m always seeking to learn more, and understand diverse perspectives. IMO, that’s the value of forums like this. It’s never my intent to be offensive.
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