robert_kc

Unless you have a huge room and the main speakers must be positioned very far apart, and you feel that it is necessary to fill-in the center with sound, why not just use the "stereo downmix" vs. "5.1 downmix"? All of the music (and movie content) will be presented via the 2 main speakers if you select "stereo downmix". (Results may not be as good if you select "5.1 downmix" and don't connect the center channel. I suggest that you experiment, and decide what sounds best.) You can still use a subwoofer (or multiple subwoofers), via a 2.1 configuration. That leaves open the question as to whether there is any worthwhile rear channel content. I recently listened to rear channel content of the recordings that I often listen to, and decided that the small amount of rear channel audio has little value to me. My Oppo players (UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95) support 2.1, and I'm very satisfied with this arrangement for both music (classical and opera) and movies.

Based on my listening thus far, sound quality is not impaired by setting "SACD Output" to PCM. The good news with the Oppo universal players, is that it is quick and easy to switch between "SACD DSD Output", to "SACD PCM Output with bass management". The issue of using a subwoofer with large speakers (e.g., RF-7II) involves trade-offs, and potential frustrations. IME, a remote control for the subwoofer is essential (e.g., Klipsch P-312W). I can get the subwoofer set appropriately for classical music, and then some @#$%^& engineer inserts obnoxious LFE garbage in a Hollywood movie, and I need to turn the subwoofer down. Bottom line, IME a subwoofer is not essential for enjoying most music with the RF-7 II and my Snell Type CV, however when "dialed in" correctly, the sub can enhance some music (e.g., pipe organ). My Klipsch Palladium P-37F benefits more often from a subwoofer.

I've chosen the high-end Oppo products because they are "universal players" (Blu-ray audio (e.g., Solti Ring) and video (e.g., opera and ballet), high-res FLAC, SACD, CD) and have a high-quality DAC built-in. I have multiple Oppo units installed in several different stereo hi-fi systems: UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95, and DV-980H. The Oppo units listed above have variable output (i.e., volume control on remote) enabling them to be connected directly to a tube power amp (i.e., no pre-amp). And the Oppo's have "bass management" - i.e., a built-in crossover, and a connection for a powered subwoofer. With Oppo's bass management, the low frequencies are off-loaded from the main amp and speakers, which differs from a "double bass" implementation of a subwoofer (which is common) wherein low freqs are sent to both the main speakers and the sub. The low freqs eat up a lot of power. With the Oppo's implementation, the main amp and speakers are less likely to overload (and sound congested or distorted) during fff passages of classical music. I’ve set-up my UDP-205 the same as my BDP-105 and BDP-95 when connecting the dedicated stereo analog RCA outputs to a stereo amp, and connecting a powered subwoofer to the Oppo (i.e., 2.1 configuration). I use the UDP-205's dedicated stereo analog RCA outputs to a stereo amp (usually a vintage tube power amp), and connect a powered subwoofer to the Oppo (i.e., 2.1 configuration). No multi-channel. No HDMI audio. No AVR. Oppo settings: Audio Output Setup Secondary Audio: “Off” HDMI Audio Format: "Off". S / PDIF Output: 192k LPCM (I don’t think this comes into play, but not certain.) SACD Priority: "Stereo". SACD Output: PCM. (If "SACD Output" is set to "PCM", then the UDP-205’s bass management functionality is engaged, i.e., bass for SACDs is sent to the subwoofer. If "SACD Output" is set to "DSD", then bass for SACDs is NOT sent to the subwoofer.) A/V Synch: 0 Audio Processing Setup Go to the Setup Menu and select Audio Processing. Select Stereo Signal and change it to Front Left/Right. Go to Speaker Configuration. Set the Downmix Mode to Stereo. Set each of the connected speakers to Small and set the subwoofer to On. Exit Speaker Configuration and set the Crossover setting to whatever your preference is. I have crossover set to 80Hz. Output Volume: Variable Power up Volume: 40. Max Volume: 100. Dynamic Range Control: Off Filter Characteristics: Mini Phase Fast (I haven’t experimented with this parameter.) When the player is configured as detailed above, audio from a source that does not have a dedicated .1 or LFE track will be directed to the subwoofer based on the crossover frequency you select. I have more than 2 dozen amps installed in 5 systems, and I’ve found equipment combinations/configurations that work well. (Not all do.) In 3 of my systems I have a power amp that I drive directly from the Oppo. However, some power amps sound better with a pre-amp. (In each system I have switches and patch panels that enable me to select which amp I want.) I also connected a Chromecast Audio via a TosLink cable to the UDP-205 and BDP-105, and it works successfully. Based on my experience using Oppo players for several years, this configuration works for SACDs, CDs, Blu-ray (audio and video), DVDs, downloaded FLAC, etc. With these settings, I realize excellent sound quality (assuming a good quality recording). For example, the UDP-205 connected to a pair of 1950's era McIntosh MC30 tube power amps sounds fabulous. On the Oppo’s remote, I can select “Pure Audio”, which mutes the video display. My systems: Living room: The speakers are Snell Type CV. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source components are Oppo UDP-205 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE. Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110 / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 driving JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp. Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium. TV room: The speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source is an Oppo BDP-105 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings). The amps are Scott 399, Fisher 800B, Kenwood KR-9050, Pioneer SX-1980 is being sold to be replaced by McIntosh MC225, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MC240, and an NAD C375BEE. The tube amps are for music. The solid-state amps are for movies. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp. Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium. Office: The speakers are JBL L880. Source: Oppo DV-980H SACD/CD/DVD. Amps: Fisher 500C, Scott 299B, Altec 353A, and an NAD D 3020 for general internet use (and summertime). Banana jacks allow me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp. Basement: The speakers are Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofer: Klipsch R-115SW. Source: Oppo BDP-95. Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200, Marantz 2325 solid state receiver, Pilot SA-260, Scott 210F (mono), Fisher TA 500 (mono), Scott LK150. A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z. Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium. Bedroom: The speaker is a Klipsch WF-35. Source is an older CD player. Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver). Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium. ---------------- P.S. I can quickly change from 2.1 to 2.0 via the Oppo's menus.

IME, the minimum "bench fee" for a professional electronics technician is $70.

IME, you should expect to pay approximately $600 to have a professional technician restore a stereo tube amp. You're complaining about paying $50 for someone to do work for you? How much do you expect a skilled technician to be paid per hour (including their time, and the overhead associated with their test equipment, and shop space) ????

There are Sellers on eBay advertising "B stock" RF-7 II, but I don't have any experience.

Welcome. I think the RF-7 II are great speakers, and an excellent value (particularly now that they're on sale). Have you read this thread?

Owlbass, I listen to classical music and opera almost exclusively. (Except for occasional big band music.) The issues IMO are natural timbre, and the ability to handle the dynamics of large-scale orchestral music. Can you accommodate speakers that are more than 12 inches wide? If not, tower speakers are indicated, and I’ll offer a different recommendation than most Klipsch forum members: Klipsch RF-7II speakers. For a vintage integrated tube amp, I recommend a Scott 299C, or perhaps a 299B or 222C. There are also several vintage tube receivers that are very good: Fisher 500C, 800B, and Scott 399. Another option is a single-ended-pentode amp like an Inspire amp, driven by the variable output of a CD/SACD player like the Oppo DV-980H. (I own all of these.) However- candidly - it is somewhat of a challenge for a vintage tube amp to be included in a total $1,500 budget. I’d buy a used pair of Klipsch RF-7II or RF-7, and a used Oppo DV-980H CD/SACD player (there are numerous classical SACDs), and whatever used integrated amp that you can afford for now (preferably one with tone controls). IME, NAD is not a bad option for a solid-state amp. You can upgrade to a vintage tube amp later. Hope this helps …

I own more than two dozen tube amps, installed in 5 different systems. All amps have been restored, and are in good working order. Tube rolling IME affects sound quality. Most amps only support specific tubes. While IME there isn’t a huge difference in the sound quality of different manufacture’s tubes of the same type (e.g., 12AX7), I can usually tell the difference. Here’s the new production 12AX7s that I tested a few years ago: (I also own many different vintage 12AX7s.) Only one of my tube amps supports different types of tubes: my Inspire SEP amp. Changing the output tube to a different supported type results in a significant change in sound quality. (Certain rectifier tubes must be used with certain output tubes.) Similarly, different input tubes are supported. Here’s the output tubes that I’ve tried in my Inspire amp: Zenith 6V6G (vintage) Sylvania 6L6GA (vintage) Sylvania 7408 (vintage, 6V6 variant) Mullard EL34 Bugle Boy EL34 (vintage) Russian 6P3S-E (Russian military surplus 1980s 6L6GC equivalent) Groove Tube Gold Series GT6L6GE (6L6GC) McIntosh branded GE 6L6GC (vintage) GE 6L6GC (vintage) Tung-Sol 7581A (6L6GC variant) Tung-Sol 6L6G (6L6GC in a big bottle) Gold Lion KT88 Tung-Sol KT150 Gold Lion KT66 Sylvania 5881 Here’s a pic of some of the output tubes I’ve tried (with various supported rectifier tubes) in my Inspire SEP amp: Rectifiers that I’ve tried: 5Y3, 5U4, 5U4GB, 5V4, 5V4GA, 5AR4 (multiple manufacturers of each) Front-end (9 pin miniature socket) tubes that I’ve tried: 6CG7, 6N1P-EB, 6DJ8, 6N2P-EV, E88CC My results are irrelevant to anyone else. First, my tube-rolling is based on an Inspire SEP amp, whereas the OP is using a VRD amp. My speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II; the OP is using Klipschorns. We are likely listening to different types of music, at different levels, in rooms with different acoustics. And we probably have different preferences for which inevitable imperfections in sound quality we are willing to accept. Because of the number of variables, tube rolling is subjective. And a lot of fun … until it drives you crazy … My suggestion to the OP is that he will probably hear a significant difference in sound quality with 6L6GC compared with KT88, and he can decide if he likes what he hears. OTOH, he might find that he likes KT77s.

I agree that the driver tubes can significantly affect sound quality. IME, a great new production 12AX7 is the Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7 / ECC83 / B759 gold pin (Russia). (NOT the Chinese variant.) I also like the new production Tung-Sol 12AX7 (Russia), particularly if you want a "warm" sound. (And the Tung-Sol are less expensive,) A great new production 12AU7 is the Genalex Gold Lion ECC82/B749 gold pin (Russia).

I have vintage GE 6L6GC in my Scott 296, and vintage RCA 6L6GC in my McIntosh MC30s, and my Altec 353A. Yes - the vintage tubes sound great if you're willing to spend the money. In my Inspire SEP amp, my favorite is the Groove Tube Gold Series GT6L6GE Performance Rating 5. In my MC240 I use Tung-Sol 6L6G (coke bottle 6L6GC). (No tube cage.)

eth2: What type of music do you listen to? I don't own a VRD. I see the following in Craig's web site: "Valve Rollers Dream! The amps can run EL34, 6L6GC, 5881, 350B, KT66, KT88, 6550, KT90 and more (some tube choices require a 5U4GB rectifier tube)" FWIW, the KT88 is not my favorite output tube. (I listen to classical music and opera. I own more than 2 dozen tube amps, in 5 systems.) Only you can decide which output tube you like with your music, your amp, your speakers, in your room. With that said, if you want to hear a difference in sound quality, I suggest 6L6GC. I can't say how 6L6GC will perform in the VRD driving KHorns, but IME 6L6GC have a "warm" sound that most people are seeking with a tube amp. IME you don't need unobtainable (expensive) vintage 6L6GC tubes. Try the Russian military 6P3S-E - they are a great value in GL6GC equivalent tubes. (Readily available on eBay.) For aesthetics, consider the Tung-Sol 6L6G (coke bottle 6L6GC). Whatever you decide, I suggest buying a tested, matched quad. IME, completely ignore any suggestion that "more output power is better". In an average size room, with any reasonable volume level, you could drive your KHorns with a single-ended amp delivering 8wpc. (Or possibly less.) Bottom line. 6L6GC will likely produce the biggest change in sound quality. If you decide that you want sound quality between the KT88 and 6L6GC, then you might consider EL34 (KT77). That's my 2 cents. Hope this helps. P.S. Another great sounding 6L6GC: Groove Tube Gold Series GT6L6GE Performance Rating 5.

I have an NAD C375BEE driving Klipsch Palladium P-37F. The source is an Oppo BDP-105. A Klipsch P-312W subwoofer is also connected to the Oppo (i.e., the Oppo provides the crossover). I'm very satisfied with the NAD C375BEE. I generally have the tone controls engaged, with the treble slightly attenuated, and the bass accentuated. The NAD’s remote has a tone control defeat switch, which is convenient. (I recommend getting an integrated amp with tone controls.) I mostly use the NAD C375BEE for movies, and background music. I usually use my tube amps for serious listening (classical and opera). However, IMO the NAD C375BEE has excellent sound quality. I could live with it as my only amp. And, I think it’s a great value.

Have you read the Troubleshooting section of the amplifier owner's manual? Specifically, if sound is distorted, ensure that "ECO mode" is turned off? Are other devices connected to output jacks? (Page 165.) I think that other people could better help you if you explained what troubleshooting steps you have tried. It seems to me that Step 1 is to try another amp. I'm just curious, why did you buy a 9.2 AVR for 2.0 stereo use, vs. a stereo integrated amp? I'm back to a question that I asked earlier: how loud is "loud"? Based on the fact that distortion occurs regardless of input, unless you're wanting to generate sound levels that can cause hearing damage, there is something wrong with your equipment, equipment software configuration, or installation - and the problem is probably the amp. Just my 2 cents ...

Are you talking about returning the RF-7II? There are very few speakers that are more efficient (i.e., will play louder with your Yamaha amp). Do you have another set of speakers that you can use to test the amp? It's unlikely that you received 2 defective RF-7II. More likely that something is wrong with the amp. Does your Yamaha have anti-clipping protection? You might google "can clipping damage tweeters", or "can too little power damage speakers". It seems unlikely that you've fried the high frequency drivers in the RF-7II via your Yamaha amp, but it might be possible. Do others have thoughts on this?

I'm not an expert on AVRs, but I'm quite certain that your Yamaha amp does NOT put out the same amount of power when driving 9.2 channels as when it is driving 2 channels. According to Yamaha's web site, 140wpc is based on: "Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven)" I'm afraid that I can't relate to an indicated -50dB. (Ignorance on my part - none of my amps have such a read-out.) Nonetheless, it's difficult to imagine that in a 12x24 room that your Yamaha amp - if functioning properly - has audible distortion when driving the RF-7II. Bear in mind that the 101dB sensitivity rating of the RF-7II involves a logarithmic scale - i.e., the RF-7II require much less power than most speakers. And the RF-7II are capable of playing pretty-doggone loud in an average size room Something seems amiss. Do you have access to another amp that you can try? I'm heading to the basement to listen to my RF-7II via an 8wpc SEP tube amp ...

A modern hi-res digital recording of Mahler Symphony 2 will place far greater demand on a hi-fi system than most pop/rock music, which typically has little dynamic range relative to large-scale classical music. Set the volume level so that you can hear the opening of the fourth movement (the beautiful "Urlicht"), and then see if your hi-fi system can handle the opening of the fifth movement.

I realize excellent sound quality with RF-7 II when driven by an 8wpc single-ended-pentode amp. Yes, there is more impact with a 55wpc KT88 push-pull amp, but the idea that you need a huge amount to power to deliver beautiful music via a speaker that is rated at 101dB is IME false. (Bear in mind that "tube watts" go farther than "solid-state watts" due to different clipping characteristics. In other words, you'll need a solid-state amp with a higher wpc rating compared with a tube amp to deliver comparable performance. Some solid-state amps employ anti-clipping circuitry that is intended to avoid distortion associated with being over-driven.) How large is your room? How loud is "loud?" How many channels are you driving with your 9.2 channel Yamaha amp? (The more channels you use, the less power available for the two front main speakers. Your amp's spec of 140wpc is for 2 channels in use.) Are the RF-7II new, or used? (Could they be "fried" from earlier abuse?) Bottom line, at any reasonable listening level in an average size listening room, 140wpc is more than ample power for the RF-7II. If you are hearing distortion, something is wrong (i.e., you're not realizing undistorted 140wpc from your amp, or something is not working properly).

Thanks for the video showing the Forte III in wood veneer. That looks much more appealing to me than black. Given the Forte III's rear mounted 15" passive radiator, how far out from a wall should it be placed?

Thanks grizzog, twk123, and jwc for your interesting comments. Will the Forte III and Cornwall III sound similar? Is the difference that the Cornwall is larger and more expensive than the Forte III? (Or, do they have different horns?) I wish there existed a local hi-fi shop where I could hear the various Klipsch products side-by-side, listening to my choice of music (classical). It would be a great way to spend a cold winter afternoon! I own RF7, RF7 II, and Palladium (plus other brands). In most rooms in my home I need the narrower tower speakers. However, in my basement I could accommodate something wider … perhaps La Scala, or Cornwall, or Forte … or maybe even Jubilee. The problem is that I have no opportunity to hear them. (Plus, my basement is unfinished – it's where my exercise equipment is located. I’d hate to put expensive, beautifully-finished speakers in the basement. Which causes me to be intrigued by the Jubilee for my basement …)

I think it will be interesting to see how Klipsch markets 2 speakers priced the same: RF-7 III and Forte III. I’m intrigued as to why there seems to be much more interest in the Forte III. This is ignorance on my part – not a judgement. I’m trying to learn. I find it interesting that the spokesman (Mark) seemed more effusive about the RF-7 III: “being capable of immense dynamic range” … “these are an absolute bargain” … “at this price point nothing can do what these speakers can do”. OTOH, a lot of the discussion about the Forte III was focused on LP playback – which I thought was odd. Is this saying that the Forte III’s appeal is a “retro” image? Does style play a major factor in the differing appeal of these 2 speakers? (The RF-7 III were shown in cherry; the Forte III appeared to be black.) Will the Forte III appeal more to classic rock-and-roll fans because its style seems nostalgic? Is the sound quality significantly different between the RF-7 III and Forte III? Do the “heritage” speakers have a signature sound that is different from the RF-7 III? Is the Forte III ideally suited to certain types of music, and the RF-7 III suited to different types? The Forte III is a 3 way. The RF-7 III is a 2 way. Will the RF-7 III be more efficient? The Forte III appears to be much shorter and wider than the RF-7 III. This might be a factor for some people based on their available floor space. (Do they need a narrow tower speaker?) The RF-7 III will have a matching subwoofer. For HT use, the RF-7 III will have a matching center channel. (What about rear speakers?) In contrast, will the Forte III be marketed primarily for stereo use? For some “heritage” fans, does the RF-7 III suffer from NIH (Not Invented Here)? I wish I could hear the 2 speakers side-by-side.

Please help me understand this. Do I understand correctly that the RF-7 III and Forte III will have the same price? What are their relative merits? Which would be better for classical music and opera, assuming average size room, and driven by tubes?

Is this for your Inspire amp? FYI, there's another forum with more than 3,000 posts about Inspire amps - mostly discussing owners' assessments of tube rolling. (I don't know if its OK to name another forum here.) In the Inspire amps, tube selection has a noticeable effect on sound quality. IME 6L6GC have the "warmest" sound. KT88 is probably the opposite extreme. You really have to decide what works best in your amp, with your speakers, for your music, in your room, and for your ears. Good luck.

Tube_fanatic: I should probably stop collecting amps. I think I own a good sampling of various types. With that said, I’d be glad to hear about your DIY projects. I’m not a technician, though more than 40 years ago I built a Dynaco pre-amp and power amp from kits. (In the early 1970s I was young and naïve, and I thought that Dynaco’s “new technology” (i.e., solid state) was better than their tube gear.) Following are my current systems that provide a basis for comparing the sound of various amps. Each amp has been auditioned with each set of speakers to find the best match. Living room: The speakers are Snell Type CV. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source components are Oppo BDP-95 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE. Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110 / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 driving JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp. TV room: The speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source is an Oppo BDP-105 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings). The amps are Scott 399, Fisher 800B, Kenwood KR-9050, Pioneer SX-1980, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MC240, and an NAD C375BEE. The tube amps are for music. The solid-state amps are for movies. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp. Office: The speakers are JBL L880. Source: Oppo DV-980H SACD/CD/DVD. Amps: Fisher 500C, Scott 299B, Altec 353A, and an NAD D 3020 for general internet use (and summertime). Banana jacks allow me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp. Basement: The speakers are Klipsch RF-7II. Subwoofer: Klipsch R-115SW. Source: Oppo DV-980H. Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200, Marantz 2325 solid state receiver, Pilot SA-260, Scott 210F (mono), Fisher TA 500 (mono), Scott LK150. A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z preamp. Bedroom: The speaker is a Klipsch WF-35. Source is an older CD player. Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver). My Windows 10 laptop with Music Streamer II DAC can be connected to any of these systems via “sneaker-ware”. Regarding single-ended tube amps, I own only one example, the Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO. I’m very glad to own it. It’s finicky about speaker mating – it works best with my Klipsch RF-7II. I drive it directly from the Oppo’s variable output (i.e., no pre-amp), in order to provide a “minimalist” configuration. (The Oppo’s crossover off-loads deep bass to my Klipsch R-115SW.) After much tube rolling, I’ve arrived at a combination that produces “magic” – for my ears. With that said, in this same basement system, the McIntosh MX110Z (with treble controls attenuated) paired with the Scott LK150 also sounds fabulous, and delivers more dynamics for large scale orchestral music. Back to the topic of subjectivity, and relying on imperfect and fallible memory of sound vs. electronic measurements – as I said earlier I agree that the listener’s visceral response to the reproduced music is most important. Here’s my reference for sound quality: my local symphony hall where no electronics are used during classical music performances: