Tizman

Deleted

A very good point. In the real world, size considerations are an important factor in choosing speakers. That said, matching the low distortion and dynamics of a horn bass section with DR speakers also requires a large box with multiple drivers. Sound quality sometimes must be sacrificed in order to satisfy the often present pressure of the SAF. Unfortunately, SAF specifications are not usually provided by speaker manufacturers and SAF varies greatly from household to household.

Amplifiers all sound different from each other, but if you don't have a fully horn loaded speaker, the distortion products created by the direct radiators will mask any differences. Check out this ABX test... http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm This test used an all direct radiator speaker, and the participants were unable to distinguish between a high end system and a low quality system through this poor all direct radiator speaker. Conclusive proof that direct radiators make it impossible to achieve a high resolution system. Beginners take note. Make sure you buy a high quality all horn speaker. The more horns a speaker contains, the better. Klipsch speakers are an excellent choice. With these sorts of speakers, you will be able to tell the difference between source components and amplifiers.

Here is another interesting paper that talks about the superiority of horns over direct radiators. I'm not familiar with the author, but he seems to know what he is talking about.... https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/79d0/b397722fb432c888965fd4cc0b18c56a7d5f.pdf

Here is some conclusive proof that horns are better than direct radiators.... http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/horns/why-horns

It’s really hard to tell the difference between amplifiers when your speaker contains a direct radiator. This is compounded by venting the cabinet or using a passive radiator. The bass is muddied and, if the direct radiator is called upon to reproduce a portion of the midrange, so is the midrange. This is a known fact. It is impossible to tell the differences between amplifiers and source components if a direct radiator is used. However, a tone control or equalizer can be used to mask the distortion products created by the direct radiator + port/passive radiator combo.

Check out this thread for an example of an OP who is unable to hear the difference between amplifiers because of his use of a speaker set that uses a direct radiator combined with a passive radiator...

My advice to beginners is to never buy a direct radiator speaker with a port or passive radiator. These types of speakers have distortion that is several orders of magnitude greater than the distortion of upstream electronic components. They have so much distortion that your choice of amplification doesn’t matter. In fact, you will not be able to hear a difference between amplifiers with these types of speakers.

Sounds like a plan. The following will be my first stab at it....

No doubt. I've read a few recently in this forum. Not dumb though, the references should be contentious or no one will get annoyed enough to argue with me about my claims and advice. I need to bone up on my trolling technique...

Maybe? Maybe more or maybe less? Definitely both have more distortion than a horn does. Anyway, I’m commenting on things I don’t know anything about, just like ODS does. I will also now recommend to beginners that they avoid speakers with passive radiators because of distortion issues. I don’t have to know anything about something, or have any direct experience, to comment on it and make recommendations. If ODS can do it, so can I. Now it's time to look up some dumb-a** third party sources to support my claim...

Since we are talking about distortion, what impact does a passive radiator have on linearity and distortion? Dumping the whole spice rack into the stew?

ODS123: Back to “high distortion tube design” as well. What would that be? Distortion is what happens when you talk about anything that you don’t know squat about.

I suggest not commenting on things that, by your own admission, you haven’t experienced.

I will once again add that linearity isn’t the point of music reproduction for me. For me, the point of music reproduction is making the experience one that connects me to the music on an emotional level. For my primary system, the amps and speakers that I gravitate to do this for me, the ones I avoid don’t. On my primary system, I prefer well recorded music for critical listening that doesn’t require tone controls to sound good. When I listen to music that I like that is poorly recorded, I usually listen to it on a variety of devices and secondary systems, and it’s not “critical listening”. Some of these systems are crap at reproducing any stereo recording properly. For example, I have a 1960s Normende tube console in my dining room that I attach an Alexa to. ODS123 commented earlier on the need for a mono switch to fix early exaggerated stereo recordings such as some early Beatles recordings. These recordings sound fantastic on this console, as do most old mono recordings. Recording engineers have always kept in mind the systems that most people had at the time of the recordings, and the recordings are very often a product of this reality. Many of these recordings, when reproduced by a system of high resolution, sound like crap. Using period correct equipment makes these recordings sound better. So do tone controls and mono switches, but “sounding better” has nothing to do with linearity.

There isn’t anything wrong with using tone controls. The point I am making is that they modify the frequency response and make the amplifier un-linear to suit the listeners taste. So if you use tone controls on a regular basis, you should stop harping about requirements for linearity because you are intentionally making your amplifier un-linear. “A modern amplifier engineered to be linear with tone controls to reduce its linearity to suit taste”.

The OP loves tone controls and pays lip service to linearity, but once you use a tone control, doesn't linearity go down the toilet? I'm not talking about using pink noise and measuring equipment (or ears) to measure the frequency linearity of an amp and loudspeaker in a room, at the listening position, and then equalizing for a balanced and linear frequency response. I'm talking about using a very granular tone control to change the frequency response on the fly to suit your tastes on a song by song basis. What does doing the latter have to do with linearity? Frequency linearity is linearity. Modifying the frequency response with a tone control creates un-linearity. Using a tone control is the application of individual taste at the expense of linearity.

I believe that it goes beyond that. It isn't just gain and clipping. There is also EQ applied as needed to present the same frequency response at the listening position, if I remember correctly. In the real world outside of the "Challenge", amps are what they are, and are not modified by measuring with test equipment and adjusting with equalizers to sound identical to each other. The need to fiddle with the output of an amplifier is effectively proof that amplifiers sound different, is it not? Also, amps clip on loud transients. Especially on low sensitivity speakers. Some clip gracefully, and some don't. Is this not supposed to count? In short, the "Challenge" has nothing to do with what happens in the real world.

Good move richieb. I almost did the same a few dozen pages back, but jumped back in because it's simultaneously annoying and entertaining. I'm feeling like it's time to permanently bail as well. No beginner in their right mind would read through this ridiculous thread anyway, and there is enough good info in here to counter the dumbness. Enjoy your Pass gear. It's excellent stuff.

Not as good. Unlike yourself, Nelson Pass is an accomplished designer. His amps are fantastic. I own one of them, a very reasonably priced one, the ACA, that would be an excellent choice for a beginner that is also buying a sensitive Klipsch speaker. Make every amp sound the same first, and then get people to try the to hear a difference between them. 12 out of 12 correct responses required to win. I'd make that bet too. A DR near-field speaker listened to not in the near-field. All components different from one another in the two setups tested. A dumb test. Proof?

I find earplugs help make everything sound the same too. Except for interconnects. I can hear the difference between interconnects with earplugs in.

I didn't say that you said anything. I just said you like opening boxes.

ODS123 is consistent at least. Onward to 100 pages! Advice to beginners: “Buy whatever. It all sounds the same anyway”. Just ask ODS123. He has been upgrading for years now, not because he thinks some components sound better than others, but because he likes opening boxes. It’s fun.

Yes, that too.