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Everything posted by ScooterMcTavish

  1. Haha, a Cerwin Vega thread from eight months ago turns into an amplifier debate. Amps all sound the same? For your reading pleasure: Vintage vs. New I find this the most fascinating part of the hobby - we can measure things all we want, but there are parts of the sound we can't quantify, like odd-vs-even order harmonics. Back to Klipsch vs. CV: I have owned numerous sets of both - in CVs I have has A-123, HED U-123, D5, and VS120. In Klipsch I have owned RB-61, RB-61ii, Synergy F3, and Forte. The Forte remain, and none of the rest do. To me, the biggest problem I have had with CVs is a lack of sharpness on the top end. Although the tweeters were capable of generating plenty of sound, they lacked the crispness that my Fortes have (acknowledged they do have Crites titanium diaphragms). The midranges were also somewhat offensive, and needed a good EQ to tame down their "shouty" tendencies. And, for whatever odd reason, they never seemed to generate bass in the way their woofer size and design suggested they should. When EQd, you could get them to thump, but tonality of bass was lost. Unfortunately, as a teenager in the 1980s, I saw CVs as the pinnacle of rock speakers, and continue(d) to try and find the "right" set to have fun with in my system. No success as of yet, and my odds of acquiring more CVs is rather slim. From the Klipsch side, the F-3 had absolutely superb bass, that was effortless to generate. However, they also were a disappointment with a recessed midrange, and beamy treble. Not sure if it was a feature of the aluminum domes, or the horn design, but the treble did lack some focus compared to better domed-tweeter speakers I own. The RB-61s were both better, but were also "missing" something from the midrange, though the titanium tweeter certainly was an improvement over the aluminum. The Forte have stayed and earned a permanent place in my tube system, as they generate excellent tuneful bass, and have superb dynamics. Although the CVs also had great dynamics, they were sloppy where the Forte are crisp, and shouty where the Forte are present. In short (and rather humorously), the Klipsch do appear to share some design philosophies with CV, but these philosophies were executed to a much higher degree. As it relates to the new CVs, I have heard two of the CLS models, and the treble and midrange were improved over the models I listed above. That being stated, I did feel they trended towards stridency, and I was somewhat amazed at how little bass they generated without any additional bass compensation (i.e. loudness, bass control, or EQ).
  2. Damndest thing. I was listening to the Fortes as I work from home today, and thought I'd hook up my B&W 683 (a very nice speaker) for a change of pace. Lasted about a hour. Tube amp was turned off and cooled over lunch, and the Forte were hooked back up. Going from a speaker I described as "harsh" and "tinnitus inducing" at the demo, to a preferred speaker in my music room. Who woulda thunk it. WIth the dynamics of the Fortes, they make the sedate B&W sound, well, kinda' dull. Should note though, that the Fortes do not suffer poor recordings in a polite way. A few tracks have certainly played (200 CD jukebox on random) where I'd certainly prefer the B&W. That being said, one can certainly her the difference between 12" passive radiated bass and 2 x 6.5" ported bass. It has weight.
  3. I actually found corner-loading smoothed out my Fortes quite a bit. Any stridency disappeared from the sound. The negative was that the wide soundstage collapsed. I have them now about 4 inches from the corners, toed in slightly, and it seems to be the best of both worlds. Each are aimed just outside of my easy chair.
  4. I can try the speakers more toed in again, but the beaminess to me is more a texture of the sound vs. any response curve fault with it. I would also question blaming this on the upstream electronics, as this setup sounds sublime with both a set of Monitor Audio Silver 6 and B&W 683. Setup is a Jolida tube amp in bypass mode using KT-88 output tubes, and a Proton preamp. This system generates rich and smooth sound. As a listener, I am extremely mid-sensitive, and this is why I am now on my fourth set of Klipsch. The past models I have had delivered good full-spectrum sound, but the delivery "style" of the horn tweeters just added an unnatural texture to the sound that other speaker designs I have owned did not. I wouldn't call the delivery "hot", "harsh", or even "grainy" - it's just "different", or for lack of a better word "horny", like someone yelling through cupped hands. When toed in to cross in front of me, this effect was the lowest I've heard it. When I went back to slight toe in (so I am still off axis), this character returned. When I initially set them up same as my B&W (aimed at my shoulders in a 6' x 6' x 6' equilateral triangle) this character was even more present. And who am I to argue with @dtel and the designer of the F2 and F3? I'm sure they've both forgotten more about audio that I'll ever know. The toe out idea is interesting though. When I've done this with speakers before, it almost creates "false space" like a DSP mode, or a "spatializer" on an old EQ. Might be interesting to try though.
  5. Well I toed them in tonight so that they crossed a few feet in front of me. I’ll be darned, they sounded great. It got rid of the “beaminess” of the horns, and dialed down any harshness that was present. The bass was somewhat less but also smoothers, with a little better tone and texture. The only negative was the soundstage was narrower than vs slightly toed in, likely due to reduced sidewalk reflections. On a side note, I took out the passive and crossover, and discovered the only mod is titanium domes on the tweeter. Crossovers are still 100% original, while mids look to still be phenolic. I’m actually quite impressed with these Fortes - they keep growing on me, and I found my B&W to sound a little dull next to them.
  6. So question on placement - I've seen a few different opinions between "straight ahead", "toe in slightly", "aim directly at listener", and "45* toed in placed in corners and cross in front of listener". Yesterday, I tried aiming them over my shoulders (a bit harsh), straight ahead (a bit meh) and tied in slightly (a nice wide soundfield). What are other's experiences with the Fortes? Of note, these are in a specific listening environment, and don't need to be set up so that "everyone" gets good sound. Only me in my recliner.
  7. I guess I’m allowed to threadmance my own thread. Almost a year after I started this post, and nine months since I last posted, the Fortes are now sitting in front of me. I’m currently listening to Bill Evans Trio “Sunday at the Village Vanguard” on vinyl through my tube amp, and wow. Not overly harsh, unbelievable ambience, and gorgeous sound in general. Some of the first rock tunes I put through were a mixed bag. But this? Wow, just wow. I now finally hear the “live music” that people claim Klipsch delivers better than other speakers. I think these here will make an excellent complimentary set to the B&W 683 beside them. Amazing what a difference the upstream electronics and room make. Like a different speaker than I demoed. Wonder what the Mrs will say when she sees them.....
  8. I've been debating off and on about buying a set of Fortes locally, with the main problem being my original demo was done in a poor room with a carver SS hook up. However, I have pretty much convinced myself to buy the Fortes, but am planning to hook them up to my Jolida tube amp. This integrated makes everything sound better, plus leaves you a few shekels left over for other fun stuff to hook up to it (like my Teac CD-P650 which has a DAC and USB for an iPhone in it), or a vintage pre (like my Proton) with an MC phono stage and tone controls. If there are Jolida amps around, they may be worth a look at, especially the 302 series which can be rebiased to take KT88 or 6550 tubes. I'm running mine with KT88, and it sounds wonderful. Good luck on this, and have fun shopping.
  9. Well, pass on this one. Seller let me know they had sold this AM. Please no one post “Those were the best speakers you could have ever owned!”
  10. Morning all, My last foray into classic Klipsch was a set of Forte where I couldn’t survive the demo. Possibly part of it was the hard room, and possibly part of it was the Carver receiver it was hooked up to. However, I left them at the seller’s home, as their sound was not for me. Now a set of Heresy II have come available locally, and I am curious to if they are worth pursuing, based on my experiece with the Fortes? Welcome your options, friendly Klipsch community.
  11. BTW, my wife saw them and asked if I was attempting to compensate for something.
  12. Interesting - listened at decent volume all afternoon, and no real tinnitus. In fact, likely the normal background ringing caused by me eating fried chicken for lunch. I have to say the horn tweeters are certainly different. They project the sound differently than I am used to, and give it a different sort of character that I get from my direct speakers (Wharfedales), or my omnipolars (Ohm, Mirage). It's not harsh or fatiguing, but it certainly is very present. The listening adventure continues. Though I've now put the grilles on and aimed them straight with no toe-in to my listening position. Quite the difference, and they sound less "horny". So, how do others listen? Grilles on or off? Toe in or not?
  13. Next up is Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms", a disc I used in my Forte demo. Confirms I am not getting the harsh mid-push from the Synergy speakers that I was getting from the Forte. Also noticed that during the Lonestar disc, one track started with static coming through the tweeters, possibly due to the speakers sitting unused for a few years. Noticing the better mixed highs are crisper on this disc, and it seems that the snare is a bit splashier than cymbals on this recording. That being said, I am already comfortable stating I prefer the sound of these speakers to anything in the Paradigm Monitor line I've ever heard. Hmmm, "Your Latest Trick" just came on, and I'm finding the highs on this track are missing the splashiness, just a very very slight hint of sibilance on the high hats.
  14. Well, speakers were dropped off this AM, and I have one of my reference discs in (Lonestar's Greatest Hits) to listen to the overall presentation of the speakers. So far, not bad, plenty of bass on tap if needed. Vocals sounds warm and resonant, and not shouty like they have with some horns I've listened to. Piano, ditto; full and warm. Part of this is likely due to me running them on my Jolida tube rig, which has "warm" sounding EH KT88 output tubes. Top end info such as cymbals do sound a bit splashy, and not as crisp as some other speakers with a sharp top end I've owned. My Soliloquy 6.2 were clinical in their top-end dissection, but also over middy. The F3 are not as clinical, but also not as mid pushy. In fact, for my mid sensitive ears, I'd suggest these have a -2dB hole between 1-4kHz, which in my case, is not a bad thing. Initial introduction is so far, good. For a reasonable price? It's a no-brainer. In an act of "Heresy" (hahaha) I'd say that I prefer the sound I'm hearing today to what I heard when demoing a set of Forte. I'm not saying the sound is that much better, it's just that it doesn't have my tinnitus flaring so bad that I want to break into tears. Will listen to some more, and report back more.
  15. Well, dtel, I never figured that one out either. Mind you, a happy marriage is full of compromises, so possibly the speakers weren't as important to him as whatever other compromise he worked out from the relationship. My biggest hope is that these are good rock speakers. I have various quality speakers around my home which could be described as refined, musical, and excellent at soundstaging. I do not, however, have any good rock speakers. In fact, my last try at a set of rock speakers was a set of CV that I refurbished, then was ultimately disappointed by. Hopefully they'll get dropped off in the next few days and I can report back as to what they do well.
  16. Hello again nice Klipsch folks. We're here today to talk about try #3 at a set of Klipsch speakers that suit me - these being a friend's pair of Synergy F-3. After moving, his wife banished these monsters to the cupboard, and he was looking to free up some cupboard space. And as someone who has heard a number of modern Klipsch offerings (which were not bad BTW), I figure I can have a lot of fun for a reasonable price. Now for these speakers, they will be attached to my Jolida Tube Amp, and will (may for CD) use a Proton preamp. In short, I want the same bass impact one gets from going to a concert, with clear and effective highs. I also hope that the two-way, single horn design of these will avoid much of the midrange distortion that bothered me so much when I demoed the Fortes. In my brief time with a set of RB-61, I was not disturbed by the horn-loaded tweeter, and did not find it tinnitus-inducing. Unfortunately, I did find them to not perform as well as some other bookshelves I had on hand; almost as if some mid texture was missing. However, I am hopeful that the F-3 teamed with the tubes will be a great match. So what should I expect? I know online opinion is somewhat mixed, and there are some negative connotations from using speakers purchased at Best Buy. That being said, my main room currently has a set of $1,200 Wharfedales, so I expect the Synergy to be in the same ballpark as they are. Thank you again all for your gentle education.
  17. Yes, I've started wearing ear protection for all sorts of things I never used to wear ear protection for in the past. Possibly mowing needs to be put on the list. The upstream electronics were of concern to me as well, but with no way to test the Fortes on different gear, I was forced to leave them. I've brought home a few too many pairs that I've thought "Wow, I'll make this sound much better at home" followed by the disappointment of discovering that I can only make something sound so good.
  18. Just me again, nice Klipsch folks, So in continuing to look for speakers locally, a set of Tangent T40 have popped up. A newer design than the Forte I looked at, and designed obviously much differently - two 8" bass drivers, a 12" passive radiators, and a larger horn crossed at 1.8kHz. 50 lbs each, so at least they have some heft. My experience with two ways with passive radiators is they almost mimic three-ways, albeit with the active woofers covering the 100Hz-2kHz range, and the passive radiator acting almost like it was crossed over below 100Hz. Has anyone had experience with this particular series, and how does it compare to a traditional 3-way? Of note, I found the mids of the Fortes overbearing, but they also covered a lot of the spectrum (up to 7kHz if memory serves correct), which is what likely caused me to find them harsh. Welcome anyone's opinions and thoughts on this particular model.
  19. Grilles were off. Funny, depending on who you talk to grilles are typically blamed for deadening the sound, and the the speakers are more "transparent" with grilles off. I've certainly noticed that HF sound is muted somewhat on some of the speakers I've owned with the grilles on. However, considering how much work goes into baffle design to avoid unwanted reflections that typically any speaker other than a Vandersteen would have its sound affected with the grilles on.
  20. Thanks folks, Appreciate the notes. Actually, while driving to work today, I was able to put my finger on how best to describe the Fortes. They reminded me of PA systems I've heard at concerts, etc. I've actually sworn off concerts, as the SPLs and mid-push just make them a little painful to me. Interesting the note on the Carver @unclefred as that was a concern of mine as well. I have had a similar experience with Musical Fidelity - some state it sounds very tube-y. I thought it sounded very harsh-y. Now that I have tubes, I wonder on what basis people make the comparison. @dtr20 That was my thought as well - possibly the "II" might suit me better. However, it's rare enough for a set of Forte to show up here, let alone a set of Forte II. @wvu80 The tinnitus is a horrible thing. I've always been somewhat sensitive to midrange distortion, something I find that is way too abundant on modern recordings. In fact, the album "Chuck" by Sum 41 and its midrange distortion is what set me off on my serious audio quest 13 years ago. However, I'm of the suspicion that it is not specific frequencies that cause the tinnitus - I believe it is an over-abundance of odd-order harmonics in the mids that fire it up. With my Solilioquy speakers, using tubes, and switching from 6550 to KT-88 has been successful in generating a mid-present but non-irritating sound. If I'm listening to SS gear, I almost always need to use "British" sound speakers (such as Wharfedale and Mission) to keep the harmonics down, or use "warm" SS gear such as McIntosh. Only issue with this is that mid-immediacy disappears. However, when it gets fired up, I get about a 40db 8khz ringing in my ears. It ruins music, and pretty much most of my day.
  21. The only unfortunate part of the experience was that we couldn't hook them up to his tube rigs, as he didn't have the right type/length interconnect to do it. My Soliloquy were also tinnitus inducing mid-hot speakers that improved 100% when hooked to my tube rig, especially once I switched to KT-88 in the output stages. Possibly part of the issue was the Carver, but I wasn't willing to risk bringing them home to see if they sounded better with my rig. And Although the Soliloquy were mid hot, it was nothing like the Fortes.
  22. And just to report back, I did not end up picking up the Fortes. The seller demoed them on a Carver Pre/Power combo, and we started the demo completely flat. My initial impression was that I wanted to turn off the system. First track up was "So Far Away" from Brothers in Arms. They sounded a bit unbalanced to me, as in a little too hot in the mids. Units had Crites titanium diaphragms on them and the top top end was very clear and clean. Bass was solid and tuneful. So I started to adjust the tone controls and pulled the treble down about 2db. A little better, but not quite right. Change of disc, and in went AFIs Decemberunderground. A modern recording - in short lots of dynamic compression, and full of midrange harshness. On the track "Love Like Winter" the Klipsch were simply unlistenable, with a harsh and punishing midrange. Based on the way this fired my tinnitus up, there was lots of excess info in the 1-4khz info coming through the mid. So final disc - Cascada's "The Hits", which actually sounded best of the three demo discs. the vocals were quite good, and the bass was again tuneful and solid, but at this point my tinnitus was so bad that it didn't really matter any more. In short, I think the tweeter was quite nice, and heard some detail that I don't always hear with my Soliloquy. The bass management was also good, and I enjoyed the tunefulness of the passive woofer. However, that midrange horn was simply tinnitus-inducing. I don't know if moving its crossover point lower might help, or if the tractrix horn on the Forte II was better, but it certainly didn't work for me. As a final note, the speakers were listened to slightly toed in, about 10' away, in a room with carpet, and no large reflective surfaces. Sorry nice Klipsch forum people, it seems I just may be one of those folks who can't get along with Klipsch speakers. I'm trying, really I am. But so far we're 0/2.
  23. Well, official demo day is set for Monday. A very strange process this has been - after originally saying no the speakers,then continuing to research them, then tracking down the person that offered them, I hope these deliver that magic "something" I am looking for. Also odd as I feel a bit like a kid before Christmas. Last time I felt this excited was when I bought my first "audiophile" receiver (a Musical Fidelity) though it ended up being a disappointment - here's hoping the Fortes work out a bit better.
  24. Well, tracked down my audio friend, another tube fiend, and am glad he's a procrastinator as he still has the Fortes. He knows they have had some Crites mods, but cannot say for certain if it is the crossovers, tweeters, or both. Regardless, I'll be heading to his place in the next few weeks for a listen, and I will report back. And just as a side note, I have to say the Klipsch website amazes me every time I am here. The reverence the website pays to the company's founder and tradition is something not seen often, especially when a company is now part of a conglomerate like Voxx. Having just even just this shallow glimpse into the mind of PWK makes me want to own speakers he had a hand in designing. Well that, and the gentle persuasion of the forum members who'd likely be happy to see a set of classic Klipsch in my home,
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