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Maz4bz

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  1. Keep it vertical or your off axis response suffers a lot (i.e. for anybody not sitting right in front of the centre speaker)….. https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-design-construction/175510-kind-unusual-setup-3.html#post1615066 Traditional centre channel speakers are even worse.... The folly of a horizontal centre channel speaker - RP-250C measurements
  2. Nice job George! Love the finish. So glad my KG 5.5 update ramblings have been of some value. Please post more photos. I'd really like to see how you laid out the crossover. Cheers
  3. The tweeter has a third order or 18db high pass filter which is created by C1, C2 and L1 in combination. Horn compensation when a compression driver is used is a little different and is usually formed by a capacitor and resistor in parallel. See here the Econowave crossover design by Zilch. In this design the compensation is formed by C3 & R1 for the Selenium D220 on the Econowave guide... Wayne Parham's white paper "Speaker motors and passive crossover filters" explains this well, certainly better than I can. In this case the KLF/KG and many other Klipsch horns front a dome tweeter which may explain why these don't require compensation - but I could be wrong in saying this. As I understand horns it is the constant directivity that causes the 6db decline in output which is why I was surprised the KG horn performed so well without compensation. The breakpoint or cutoff frequency or crossover frequency (Fc), if I'm correct in understanding your use of breakpoint can't really be changed without requiring a complete redesign of the entire crossover. Altering C1 affects the filter Fc on the tweeter, which will impact on the summed response of the tweeter and woofer, thereby requiring a subsequent tweaking of the woofer circuit. As I mentioned previously in this thread any changes to the crossover filter design is unlikely to yield satisfactory results without the actual KLF-10 driver frequency and impedance measurements. "Can anyone explain HF Compensation and the need for it?" Why not have a play with your CF-3's and see if you like what you hear? You can reverse it if you don't like it. Better yet get a measurement mic and see what you hear!
  4. Hi Chris, Thanks for your insights. No, I have not yet listened to a MEH. I sure am keen to try one, this SEOS based design from the master BWaslo sure is intriguing. How's that polar pattern! I would have thought the quad woofer arrangement is going to have both vertical and horizonal pattern problems? Cheers!
  5. Wow, that is one slick website you have there! Impressive. A few design questions... When you say ALK designed these specifically for you, May I assume then by this you mean that he has the same speaker enclosure/drivers/horns on hand and he has measured like this: For a three-way, measure the following (keeping the microphone position, the baffle position, and the levels the same for all measurements -- WITH phase response included): Tweeter response Tweeter + Midrange response (both together, no crossover) Midrange response Midrange + Woofer response (both together) Woofer response Would it be possible for you to post the crossover schematic so others might also build this system too please? Again, super keen to see final response measurements! Cheers.
  6. I've read with interest about the Eminence neo woofers in some of the nice DIY Sound Group designs. Unfortunately Eminence is very expensive in Aus. About that crossover - its a generic design right? Given how much you are investing here I'd be very interested in the measured response once all built up. Good luck!
  7. Great work. Just wondering if you considered using faital woofers and why you went with the Eminence? I recently did a build with the Faital Pro 12PR300 and had great results. Thanks for sharing. Keep us posted.
  8. Dear all, I good friend has built an amazing home theatre, actually its the best I've ever experienced. It has an all Klipsch front end - he was sold after hearing my KG-5.5's. , in ceiling speakers for side and surround and five subwoofers. Pioneer receiver, Behringer DCX-2496 for sub optimisation and a pair of Crown XLS... Two tapped horns for freight train levels of impact... The weakest link however is the centre channel. This is nothing new of course, others have written about this elsewhere. Nothing against the quality of his nice RP-250C. When sitting on axis, i.e. right in front of the RP-250C the vocals are crystal clear. However when on his outboard seats, I personally find dialogue intelligibility goes off a cliff. I took the opportunity over the weekend to quantify the off axis performance of his front stage, including the matching RP-160M's to see what the measurements might say about why dialogue is so difficult to catch when not in the two money seats. Using Omnimic I have a stand I've made to do measurements of bookshelf sized speakers. This sits on top a turntable with 10 degree markings for accurate off axis measurements.... The first thing we did was measure the impedance of the RP-250C. We use this to set the measurement level to approximate 1watt at 1 meter. The enclosure has a sticker on the back that says 8ohms, I'm thinking Klipsch made a typo here?!!!…. The following measurements are all taken in room, at 1 meter, with 5ms gating at 2 volts with no smoothing. First here is the complete 0 - 90 degree horizontal measurements.... Here is just the 0 - 40 degrees which to help clarify the problem.... What we see here is that the RP-250C is only able to perform well in the critical 1-2khz region either on axis (0 degrees) or out to 10 degrees off axis. Not much then. Once 20 - 40 degrees off axis we can see here the suck out that is occurring. If we take this same set of measurements and create a Dr Geddes style polar map we can see more clearly the problem. First here is an ideal polar map lifted from Dr Geddes white paper on controlled directivity... Here is the RP-250C. I've added in the lines to show the extent or lack there of the sweet spot from 2khz all the way down to around 500hz.... What happens when we measure the vertical off axis response.... The irony of the poor horizontal performance is that the RP-250C has just about the best vertical off axis performance I've ever seen outside of a synergy horn.... Polar is stunning, I'd say solid performance across the board out to 40 degrees off axis.... Certainly the RP-250C looks better than the RP-160M when measured in the horizontal, which itself is no slouch, even if it is a bit missing from 1 - 2khz itself and just a bit hot above 10khz.... Traditional horizontal for the 160C... And another impedance typo? 160C also rated as 8ohms!??? 😉 So the moral of the story here is that a traditional centre speaker with the horizontally laid out drivers is a really poor option for precisely its intended purpose - delivering crystal clear dialogue to all viewers. Ideally a center channel speaker is a perfect match of your left and right, or at least a speaker with vertically arranged drivers. Three RP-160C across the front standing on end, certainly not lying flat as intended, would make an outstanding front LCR stage, provided you could keep your ears right in the sweet spot vertically! Cheers
  9. Hi MechEngVic, Glad you were able to have a play with the XSim .dxo it is a great tool. I think you did the right thing here. 0.05uF is a very small difference in value and I would be highly surprised if that was audible. I would hate it if you replaced that lovely looking Clarity Cap on the basis of what you have seen in the XSim .dxo I provided. The reason for this is that we are not using the KLF10 driver measurements for the combined system response. We would need these measurements to do any kind of granular change to the crossover, such as changing a cap by any value, especially a value of only 0.05uF, for example. My intent in sharing the XSim model was simply to show how we might address the gross difference in output between tweeter and woofers, if these have similar efficiency to the KG 5.5 drivers. The beauty of the R2 tweak I have suggested is that it works like a simple volume control on the tweeter level that you can absolutely hear the difference of when implemented into a system like the KG 5.5's which are approximately 5db hot on top. 5db is a big/gross change to the level of the tweeter that will definitely be audible. Notwithstanding I encourage you to change up your crossover however you like, its completely reversible and a fun way to learn. I would like to suggest that you can do that with nice cheap parts, like I have done in my KG thread, first. Then if you settle on a design as final, you can go nuts and spend big on parts then. Of course if money is no object please completely ignore me! If money is no object then you really owe it to yourself to get a measurement mic. Then you will know precisely the impact of any changes you make. I will very much look forward to what you find. I also highly recommend trying other values for R2, mainly as a learning opportunity, and because the 10ohms value was just a stab in the dark on my behalf - we are not using your KLF drivers in the model after all. If you try a range of values and give each change a while for you to acclimate to, I'm sure you will find a balance that suits your taste. If you then give us a "review" of each value it may help others to zero in on a value that works for them too. Have fun and good luck!
  10. I've experienced nasty sounds when a roll surround has just begun to let go with the aging glue losing its grip on the cone/frame. Easy fix too. Did my head in trying to located it. Pressing down on the cone/dust cap reduced it. Wasn't until I carefully worked my way around the surround that I found the section that was no longer secure. Good luck! KG's Rock!
  11. Dear all, Stage 2 crossover upgrade V0.23: Tweaking the 2.5-way design with measurements. So I have built up my second 2.5 way crossover. I made a few minor changes to the layout this time: added back a series resistor to shape the tweeter response a little; I kept the impedance smoothing section made up of C4 and R4 on the main board; added a positive binding post; and relented and unwound a second 3.5 mH inductor to make up my missing 2mH. Here's the tweeter and upper woofer board.... For my 0.5 section or lower woofer board I tried using one of the deconstructed crossover PCB's that I now have many of after harvesting all my LCR parts. This worked out great and simplified the wiring to the lower woofer which now takes a negative lead from the main board negative binding post. I have used two 5.6mH inductors in series to get my 6db roll off for the lower KG woofer.... So the KG pair are installed back into my main listening room and I've had a few weeks to enjoy them and I am happy to report that they do indeed sound AMAZING! The first listening impression I got was a sense of a big step up in the clarity of the midrange. Vocals really shine through where before these seemed more recessed. With this clarity comes a deeper level of richness in many kinds of music that I don't think was there previously. I really wish I had another pair that I could A/B with, original crossovers to new 2.5ways, but I don't so I'm relying on memory, and all of that sense's frailty. After some time I began to realise just how revealing of the recording quality this design is, and after a while I began to think I wanted to round off the treble just a smidge because I really do like just a bit of warmth, which I think makes medium to loud listening more enjoyable. So I went back to XSim and came up with a very minor tweak I'm calling my 2.5way V0.23. This adds a single series resistor R2 to the tweeter (S1m) circuit. I modelled and installed a 5 ohms unit.... This additional resistor has the effect of just slightly tilting the top end downward, softening the very high frequency treble.... R2 is highly tunable, here is the effect of R2 @ 10 ohms..... Here is R2 @ 3.3 ohms.... Feel free to tune R2 to taste, there is no right or wrong here, as Troels Gravesen says: "Some call the voicing of speakers an art. I don't think so. Voicing a speaker is a matter of taste like adding spices to a stew. Some like it hot, creamy or crunchy - some don't." For completeness I wanted to show some measurements. These were all done in my lounge this time. The only change to the position of my speakers where I normally have them when listening is that I moved the right hand speaker out into the room a little so that the front driver baffle just clears my nice cabinet and DIY 15" Alpine sub. Despite being far from an ideal measuring environment I think the results are great. Biased? Yes, probably! At least the data allows for some objectivity. Here's how I measured.... I didn't carefully measure 1 meter away from the cabinet front this time. I just set the mic height by putting it right up to the centre of the tweeter and then pulled the mic stand back roughly 1m and measured..... Here's the left and right comparison, pretty well dead on match for frequency response. I level matched these by knocking 2db off the right enclosure. The right speaker measured a bit louder due in part to the imprecise distance I measured each speaker from and because the left speaker is placed out in what is almost 2 Pi (free standing) space adjacent to the intersection of my lounge/kitchen/dining room compared to the right enclosure being in 0.5 Pi (corner) loading.... Zooming in I think that we might safely call this a 2db +/- result? That sharp dip between 800 and 900 hz is room related, it isn't a feature in any of my outdoor measurements .... And here is the distortion sweep. Note that I turned up the output level here so that the sweep was running at 90db which is quite loud and indicative of where I'd listen when the family are out. Black = measured frequency response (also known as the fundamental). Red = 2nd harmonic; Purple = 3rd harmonic. This graph shows the KG's are solid down to 30hz measured like this and I'm prepared to say the KG's are a very clean, low distortion system with the fundamental better than 40db above measured distortion. Wayne Parham at Pi Speakers has published various system and horn/driver combo frequency plots that make for an interesting comparison. His Pi H290C waveguide with a B&C DE250 doesn't quite achieve what the KG's have here.... Way to go Klipsch! Anyone who says the KG's are just speakers for teenagers and rockers should now rethink everything they thought they knew about them. I believe this shows conclusively the 5.5's can be extremely fine speakers, by any measure. So I'm going to keep listening some more with this crossover design in place, I'm really enjoying it and feel that for me, the 5 ohms R2 on the tweeter hits a smooth, rich, balanced listen. Hooked up to my new, secondhand, cleaned up AX-570 (which just quietly kills my brand new Onkyo TX-RZ3100 (Pioneer SC-LX901 in a different skin!) hooked up to my KG's in my room) the bass is super articulate and authoritative. Midrange so clean and clear, treble sweeeeeet mmmmm! I think we have a winner here. The KG's continue to reward. The journey continues. Cheers.
  12. I should have added the XSim .dxo file I used to do the sims so you can have a play for yourself. Just head over to the XSim thread at diyaudio.com and grab the latest version from there. Please do let us know how you get on. If you need any help just sing out! KLF10.dxo
  13. Nice stands. They turned out really great. You have some wood working skills for sure. I would imagine that your KLF10 sound wonderful as I adore my KG5.5's which are the KLF10's predecessor if I'm not mistaken, they do look similar with their dual 10" woofers and tweeter. As I sit in my lounge with my ears at tweeter height I've not lifted mine. I think you may have found that the double woofer, two way arrangement of these speakers has a very narrow vertical forward lobe, like I have. This means that when I move above or below the tweeter much, the midrange suffers. When I measure the KG's in two way configuration vs an all new 2.5 way crossover I've designed for this system there is a big difference in their off axis performance around the crossover region. Measured upwards 25 degrees above for 2.5 way (black) vs 20 degrees above for the 2 way crossover (red) .... Here is the downward measurement both at 20 degrees (again black = 2.5 way, red = 2 way)…. So I think you hit the nail on the head when you say your speakers bloom when you're on axis with the tweeter. This is also why I think our speakers deserve a 2.5 way crossover, rather than the 2way that they have. I thought I'd plug the KLF10 crossover that Moray posted a while back into XSim and load it up using the individual KG 5.5 driver frequency response measurements to see where your crossover is. I'd call this a 1500hz crossover where (green) both woofers wired in parallel and (red) tweeter frequency responses cross over: Now this is a bit academic as we are not using the individual measured frequency response of your KLF10 drivers here, but no matter, it'll likely be close but certainly not perfect! The KLF 10 crossover schematic is almost identical to the KG 5.5. The KLF woofers are a different model number, however the tweeter seems to use the same diaphragm. Notwithstanding if your drivers have similar sensitivity to the KG's then your tweeter will be around 5db or so hot like it is in the graph above. If this is the case then your KLF's can be sooooo much better! So I notice you mention the tweeter is a bit hot, same for the KG 5.5's. Here is a little suggestion I've modelled for you. Similar to what I did on my KG journey. Here is the original KLF10 crossover: I would like to propose a single change to the tweeter (S1) circuit with the addition of a resistor R2 of 10 ohms: This will result in the following change in output to the tweeter, grey is original and blue is new: This flattens the tweeter to be more in balance with the woofers and should be a BIG improvement. It was for the KG's. Of course we are not working with the measured response of your KLF10 drivers so you can adjust R2 to taste, there is no right or wrong here, as Troels Gravesen says: "Some call the voicing of speakers an art. I don't think so. Voicing a speaker is a matter of taste like adding spices to a stew. Some like it hot, creamy or crunchy - some don't." So here is the same crossover with a 6.2 ohms R2 for a more subdued top end: Or here with a 13 ohms R2 if either of the above took out too much sparkle: What I am proposing here is to experiment with the value of R2 until you enjoy what you hear. Resistors are really cheap. Buy a handful and have some fun experimenting. This change is completely reversible if you don't like it. It will take some time to acclimate to the changes, give it time and if you start to think too dull or too bright, tweak R2 some more. It took me some weeks of listening to adjust to the Lpads that I originally added to the KG's. I incrementally changed these until my speakers got too dark/dull. Then I retreated a little to regain some top end sparkle. What I settled on ended up being just about ruler flat with no measuring equipment. Trust your ears! If you are the scientific kind however, then a cheap USB mic and some free software is like being able to see for the first time. I highly recommend the investment. Wish I'd done it earlier. I use the Dayton Audio Omnimic system, it is a terrific tool and so easy to use. And don't worry about how low you can go in terms of ohms with R2. As an example if you set R2 to just 1 ohms, which I really doubt you'd ever do as it cuts about 15db output from the tweeter and would sound very dark, the system impedance never dips below 4 ohms. Here is the original crossover in grey compared to R2 @ 1 ohms in blue: Hope this helps and may your terrific Klipsch provide you many years of enjoyment - they are undoubtedly very fine speakers. Cheers
  14. Dear all, Another update on my KG journey. Stage 2 crossover upgrade: V0.22 2.5-way design, build and measurements. So getting to a workable 2.5way design has been a bit of a process. Measuring speakers is definitely a skill, with the results affected by a lot of variables. To get to this point I have measured each of the KG's individual drivers on no less than seven occasions, each with a little variation to try to ensure I was going to land on a reliable result. My big learning here has been that being able to set the relative acoustic offset of the drivers is key to getting the forward lobe pointed in the direction that I actually listen. My first attempt at the 2.5way crossover resulted in a downward tilted lobe which would be a great design if you like to sit on the floor when listening! 😉 The version presented here however does indeed present a forward lobe that is directly in front of the tweeter horn which is the level my ears are at when seated on my lounge. Here is the new 2.5way V0.22 crossover schematic: One thing to note here is that I dropped the series resistor on the tweeter circuit, it wasn't necessary. Now you can very easily vary the tweeter output by adjusting the R3. I recommend only going up in value here if you'd like some added sparkle on top. Going lower will put the impedance above 10khz below 4ohms which may be a challenge for some amps or receivers. Here's the predicted response: And predicted impedance: I also wanted to show how I go about building a crossover, as I'm prototyping and most definitely not a professional, I'm trying to keep costs down. A while back I was lucky to snag a big box of brand new-old stock Energy Connoisseur and assorted other crossovers and terminal plates for a bargain on eBay from a local repairer. I deconstructed these for their LCR parts and ended up with a nice variety of components to enable me to start building up my XSim designs..... Separating out my parts... For this crossover I didn't have a 2mH inductor on hand so I had to unwind one of my larger value units. I chose a 3.4mH as I had 3 units of this value on hand and I'm aiming to have a pair of each value to enable me to build up prototypes for pairs of speakers so that I can listen to the results of each design in my lounge room. An essential tool for anyone keen on crossovers is a multimeter with measurement for capacitance and inductance. Here measuring the inductor to be unwound.... And now measuring the unwound inductance. I keep the excess wire as it's insulated and great to use as jumper wire between components on the crossover, I just burn off the insulation with my soldering iron by melting some solder onto the end of the wire... Some pics of the design build up, we're not fancy but we are cheap! 😁 Spread out here to keep the inductors away from each other, those cross braces added before are great landing pads for the new crossovers.... A little bolt is great for tying in all the negative side of the circuit. This is an image of the first version of my 2.5way design (with inductors too close together) .... The 0.5 section for the lower woofer installed in the enclosure, trying to keep those two big inductors away from each other... Horizontal Measurements All measurements are outside off the ground, the KG measured at 1 meter with 5ms gating, on axis and all the way around to 90 degrees off-axis, in 10 degree increments horizontal, no smoothing.... Dr Geddes style polar plot of the same data. Controlled directivity! This is our best result yet and brings a big smile to my dial.... Now for verticals. Upwards.... Downwards.... The moment of truth - would we bother with a 2.5way design when the original was a simpler/lower cost 2way? Let's allow the data to answer that question. Upwards - 2.5way (black) @ 25 degrees compared to 2way (red) @ 20 degrees …. Downwards 20 degrees - 2.5way (black) compared to 2way (red)…. That ought to be enough to answer the 2.5way vs 2way question. Whichever way you go, both will be a big improvement. The 2.5way will just sound better (I believe) in a wider range of settings, like when I'm standing up to iron my work shirts! It will also mean that the "sound power" or totality of direct and reflected sounds will be flatter. Dr Floyd O'Toole of Harman (JBL) investigates this in detail and concludes that this is the defining element of what trained listeners find most appealing in double blind tests. I've linked his paper here to this post as it is the basis for my efforts at finding the flattest response both on and off axis for the lovely KG's. This off axis performance data also kind of begs the question as to why did Klipsch choose the 2way knowing (I assume) the performance implications this would have? I suspect that this may have been a marketing decision to go with the higher SPL of the original crossover as a way to stand out on a crowded HIFI shop floor full of speakers from the opposition where first impressions count for everything. If I'm correct in this assumption then I understand their reasoning - we all want Klipsch to succeed! As I understand the psycho-acoustics we are drawn to the loudest sounds, initially. Perhaps we all appreciate the efficiency at first and then acclimate to thinking "these could/should be better" whatever that means to each of us, with our own unique tastes? So how does she sound? Notwithstanding a healthy dose of confirmation bias - AWESOME! Yamaha AX-570 my new amp! I've only built up one crossover (I'm still short another 2mH coil!) but last night I hooked her up to my new purchase, a lovely Yamaha AX-570, the bigger brother of my beloved AX-450. As lady luck would have it this old workhorse popped up on our local Gumtree for sale over the last weekend in less than stellar condition. She's missing a few knobs and her pre-main jumper bars. There were quite a few kids scampering around the house I picked her up from. She didn't emerge from that place unscathed! I negotiated the price to $30 and got her home for a test run. So everything works great, a pair of uber short RCA leads plugged into the pre-main sockets and all functions are online. My Harmony remote operates all the remote functions too! More HIFI happiness! With a real 100 watts under the bonnet of the AX-570 I connected up my android phone to the CD input, engage Pure Direct and let rip on the upgraded KG with some FLAC encoded RUFUS Solace which has some THUNDERING bass. And oh my, the KG's soaked it up and put out some super smooth sounds. We definitely lose some SPL with the 2.5way design compared to the 2way by taking out the lower woofers output early. That's the point after all. But we lose nothing in the bass department. Relatively we might say we gain in the bass department due to the reduction in output through the treble region necessary to balance out the reduced midrange output from just the upper woofer - if that makes sense. This means the tweeter is really loafing along now and I think results in lower overall distortion. I'll need to measure that and include in a future update. 🧐 In any case the old gal immediately sounded GREAT with this new crossover design, even though she was just plonked on the floor in my work shed. Huge bass, which I love about these speakers, but now with oh-so-smooth mids and highs. I'm ecstatic about the results. Can't wait to get the second crossover built up and the lovely KG's back into my main system. The journey continues. Cheers!
  15. KG 5.5 all measured with DATS V2 in the free air (outside of enclosure) without crossover. Workbench Notes for KG 5.5 woofer: f(s) = 32.97 Hz Q(ts) = 0.4774 Q(es) = 0.521 Q(ms) = 5.71 V(as) = 125.1 liters (4.417 cubic feet) R(e) = 6.336 Ohms Piston Diam. = 215 mm (8.465 in.) SPL = 91.24 dB SPL 1W/1m SPL = 92.25 dB SPL 2.83 Vrms C(ms) = 0.676 mm/N L(e) = 0.68 mH at 10kHz BL = 9.321 n(0) = 0.8205 % M(ms) = 34.49 grams KG Lower Woofer free air.pdf KG Woofer data free air inc Vas.pdf KG Upper woofer free air.zma KG Lower woofer free air.zma KG Upper Woofer free air.pdf
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