ODS123

Dave.. Can you please be a little more clear? What do you mean defecting? ..How am I deflecting and from what?? Your posts seem long on anger but short on substance or clarity. Tactile appeal of the knobs?? I never suggested this should be of great concern to beginners. ..I cited it as one of many reasons why I spent more than necessary to get good sound. ..I like the look, feel, features of my Mac. ..But for years I was happy with the sound from countless simpler and less expensive integrated amps and separates. You seem to think pointing out I have a McIntosh amplifier is some big "gotcha!" but I fail to understand why?

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I have no idea what you are saying here. My remarks about MDF being the material of choice for just about EVERY speaker company weren't mere "defensive claims" - they are statements of fact. And I'm not sure how arguing that modern amplifiers which are engineered to be linear will be hard to differentiate is "pretentious." Whatever. Oh, by my count Corny-L and Corny-R (Cornwall III's, MDF edition) are closing in on 16 disintegration-free months in my home. Thanks for asking.

More accurately: " if you’re new to this hobby and you’re budget constrained, give serious thought before devoting a big chunk of your budget to a pricey amplifier, cd player and cables. ..Spend the bulk of your money were it matters most: your speakers." I never told newbies that a mono switch or tone controls are a must. ..A personal preference, perhaps, but not a "must". I can't believe you have such a problem with that advice.

Again...Yet further mischaracterization. Sheesh, you two guys come across as hostile and childish; not a great reflection on this hobby. I never said MDF is best and you know this.. ..I simply pushed back on your (ridiculous, imho) claim that plywood is sonically superior and that anything other is evidence that a speaker company has ceded all product decisions to its cost accountants. I said MDF is best when sound is the only priority and Ply is the better when durability is the priority.

How do you mean? I would bet that less than 1% of music buying public has an interest in re-mastering their own digital files. So what should they do to make that poorly recorded but otherwise great song listenable?

I respectfully disagree YK. ..I think simple Bass and Treble controls on a S/S or tube amp will go a long way in helping render those otherwise unlistenable songs enjoyable. This is why they were ubiquitous for decades on integrated amps and pre-amps.. When left at 0, or switched off w/ tone defeat, they do no harm. ..But when you get those overly bright songs that make you wince, they can do wonders. IMHO.

If I understand correctly, you're asking why it doesn't seem louder at 60 out of 98 increments. Correct? Modern AVR's use a digital volume control. Whereas a volume control on a traditional analog device may reach 90% of it's maximum non-distorted gain with only 1/2 of the knobs rotation, a digital volume control may need much more of it's incremental range. This is why when comparing amplifiers people need to match volumes using a db meter or voltage meter. ..Volume knob position is almost meaningless. So, chances are.. All is well with your setup.

Perfect recordings are the hope, but imperfect recordings are the norm. ..The problem w/ becoming an audiophile is you become increasingly aware of just how rare it is to find perfect. That particular U2 song is a great song (U2 naysayers can go pound sand). I applaud your decision to buy an integrated amp w/ Treble and Bass controls. Too many audiophiles, I feel, pass these over. ..I'd use them to whatever good affect you can. ..If they don't help ameliorate the artifacts you're hearing, just imagine you're not hearing them and enjoy the song anyway. I have quite a few CD's with horrible recording mistakes and I just power through and enjoy the music anyways. To set them aside and never listen to them b/c they aren't perfect isn't a great solution either. ..It would be like leaving a live performance b/c the sound isn't perfect, which is also pretty common. Enjoy your system in good health

Rigor? ..How? How did you prevent expectation bias from impacting what you heard? I’ve shared my own experience with expectation bias before, and I’ll share it again here… Years ago I bought a Monster power conditioner from my Vandersteen dealer to protect my expensive Bryston amp and new speakers. Though I was skeptical that such devices would improve how my system sounds, I couldn’t help but wonder if I would hear a change. My dealer was adamant that I would. ..So I pulled the plug of the Bryston amp from the wall, and plugged it into the Monster. To put it mildly, I was amazed by what I heard. My amp sounded better in ways I couldn't quite describe. The sound was smoother, cleaner and just more "right". ..Just to make sure I wasn't imagining things, I switched back and fourth a couple times. Yep, it was unmistakeable! I decided to go back one last time, so I unplugged the amp once more. But before I plugged it back into the wall my wife called me to another room to help with something. Returning a few minutes later I decided to first switch on the TV to see how Federer was doing during the Wimbledon finals. So I hit the TV power button and…..nothing! ..I tried again, and… nothing. Huh? It turned out that during this entire exercise, It wasn't the Bryston's power cord I was switching back forth b/w the Monster conditioner and the outlet, it was the TV’s! I laughed out loud but then felt totally embarrassed by just how much I allowed expectation to affect what I was going to hear. Again, I (like you) I thought I had prevented this by having very modest expectations of hearing an improvement. Expectation Bias is very powerful. ..And there’s no inoculating yourself from it. It explains why Asthma patients who are given an inhaler w/ placebo medication report a 30% reduction in symptoms in blinded clinical trials.

No... that is NOT true whatsoever. The dealer that sold me my Vandersteen 3A Sigs lent me both expensive interconnects and speaker cables (AQ and Kimber). And I did precisely what I've been suggesting others do. Hook the pricey cables to one channel (L or R), pushed my speakers right beside each other, then using my balance control and a Mono recording I switched back and forth b/w the cables. Not I nor anyone in my family could hear one spec of difference. So you are absolutely wrong about this. ..Sorry. This was partly why I began to doubt many of the notions of audio connoisseurship. I've asked before and I'll ask again. ..What do you think PWK would think about peoples' stubborn disinterest in scientific rigor as it relates to pricey cables?

So If we aren't noticing these countless powerline abuses taking place over the hundreds of miles leading to our house, just how plausible is it we'll hear problems over the six feet of cable between our outlets and components?? What would PWK think, I wonder?? After all, we all celebrate his scientific rigor. IMHO, expensive cabling is the pinnacle of audio snake oil. As an aside. ..I'm not trying to be disrespectful to those who believe in upgraded power cords. People can believe what they want. ..But those of us who feel this, and other aspects of audio, are complete BS have a right to express our opinions too. I"m definitely opinionated, but I'll always stop well short of being abusive.

Likening listening to vinyl to a tea ceremony is an awesome comparison. ..I couldn't agree more. And my wife would certainly agree. ..And hanging vinyl on the wall is way more fun than accumulating 1000's of digital files.

Vinyl is awesome. ..And for precisely the reasons you mention: Posters, liner notes, cover art, etc.. Plus, because it's a pain to advance to the next song, you tend to listen to a whole album side thus getting the sense of the thematic flow and connectedness of the songs. ..Not so with digital files. Nowadays, with iTunes and Spotify, etc.. if you don't like a song right away... vroom! ..Off to the next. ..Which has given younger generations a type of musical ADD. ..If the song doesn't immediately grab them, they'll never hear it again. That said, I don't think vinyl sounds better. ...I think that's just our romanticized attachment to the format influencing what we hear. ..But at it's best it sounds damn good. ..It's incredible to think you're hearing a tiny chip of stone dragging across a plastic disc. Simply amazing.

How is it that your electricity travels dozens, maybe hundreds of miles through countless line splices, noisy transformers, etc.. then dozens, maybe hundreds of feet of ordinary Romex through your house, yet the choice of cord for those last six feet of wire b/w the wall and your component somehow makes an audible difference? Why not just eliminate the outlet box and extend the Romex from your power panel to your component? ..Or maybe buy 200 ft of Cardas wire and extend it from your component to your power panel? Ugh... I don't mean to harsh you Islander. ...But this hobby needs more objectivism.

Sheesh, you're right. Excellent catch. ..When I first looked at the watt meters I thought there must be a decimal. ..Like 60.0 Watts. ...But 600?? I sure hope their explanation isn't, "Well, those meters were designed to also work w/ a much higher output amp that we might introduce later." ..That would be forgivable in a $300 Behringer, crown, or whatever budget-priced amp. ..But definitely not a $60k amp. ..McIntosh's watt meters are scaled appropriately for the output of each amp. I would expect same in an amp this expensive.

You are correct, of course. ..But owning a pair Spica TC-50 speakers or a B&K 202 amplifier after those companies closed (as I did) wasn't terribly painful. ..But after buying a $60k amp? Yikes. And yes this is partly why I gravitated toward brands like McIntosh, Klipsch, and Technics - all of which have been around for 40+ years.

I wasn't referring to the tubes specifically. ..I was referring to the amp in general. ..What happens when a firm so small and so exclusive decides to close shop. What happens to those who have their $60k (or whatever) amp and it needs repair?

What part of my statement are you replying to? If I call them, what am I supposed to ask? "Uh, hi.. Um.. what kind of assurance can you give me that your company will be around in 10 years should my $60k amplifier need repairs??" And how is their topology relevant?

Well, they were "Created For those of taste and distinction" Curiously, they do not offer a pre-amp, apart from a phone pre. I'd be worried that a company with such incredibly low volume and small target audience is apt to fold and leave owners without a service network or available replacement parts. In which case you have a very attractive boat anchor or expensive ammo for your trebuchet.

Audio Research, but I'm not certain.

Just to be clear, I NEVER said all amplifiers are identical and all sound the same. ..I said all amplifiers that are engineered to be linear - which includes pretty much ALL modern day sold-state amplifiers and even many tube amps (like McIntosh) - will be audibly indistinguishable from one another so long as they are operated as designed (ie., not over-driven into distortion).

Not true. ..I wish anyone who uses an SET amplifier to enjoy it in good health. They are entitled to enjoy the hobby and music in their own way. But I think they should acknowledge that they prefer amplifiers that alter the signal, albeit in a way they find pleasant. At this point I do not presume all SET amps to sound the same as apparently they aren't engineered to be linear. I believe it is much better to seek an amp that adds/subtracts nothing to the original signal. A listener can then season to taste using tone controls or EQ.

I think the ignorance being displayed are posts that criticize without offering any specificity. ..It would be helpful to the discussion if you could elaborate.

I may at some point. Who knows, maybe someday I'll buy a (very) cheap SET amp just to play with. Heck, they certainly look cool. And the nice thing about Cornwalls is they are so efficient that they can fill a room with just a few watts. But would such an amp ever take the place of my current solid-state amp or any solid-state amp that may follow?? Not a chance. I want an amplifier that neither adds nor subtracts - which is what HIFI audio aspires to, right? I'd rather use an equalizer or tone controls to adjust to taste. ..Whatever an SET amp does, it does to EVERY song, whether it needs the adjustment or not. Again, I find it it interesting that so many purists insist on eschewing tone controls because they alter the signal but they wholeheartedly embrace the idea of SET amps.