ODS123

Very funny and pertinent, thanks. ...My favorite quote: " I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects. This is a reasonable and accurate description. Naturally, if people wish to use the "effects unit" that's entirely up to them, and if they enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. What they must *not* do is try to convince me or anyone else that they have a hi-fi setup, because they don't". - Rod Elliott

Totally agree on both counts. ..My suggestion is a way of applying a tiny bit of scientific rigor with the least amount of effort. .But you're correct. My method assumes that both channels of both the amp and the CD player are functioning properly and playing at the same output level. This is not a tall ask for any CD player, but it may be for some amplifiers - particularly those coming from small boutiquey outfits That said, your recommendation would be even better. Still, I expect few to do either. I think the truth is that most audiophiles really DON'T want to know whether the differences they are hearing are real or the result of expectation biases that naturally and unavoidably follow from sighted and non-volume matched comparisons.

I'm summarizing the advice offered by the amps sound different crowd. all amps and other electronics sound different and should be compared and selected through sighted and extended auditions If that is a mischaracterization, please tell me how precisely. Is that not your stance on amplifiers, cd players, DACs, etc..?

..I get it. It's a web forum so people will goat and taunt. Fine. Be as snarky as you want. ..But if you aren't going to be at least a little pertinent, then please leave the thread. ..No need for your help getting to 100pgs. I'm not interested in that. The thread can fizz out - it's fine by me. FWIW, I really don't think you've done much to advance the "all amps and other electronics sound different and should be compared and selected through sighted and extended auditions " point of view. And I suspect any beginners still reading this thread feel the same.

I did this very thing a few years back to compare an expensive speaker cable to generic Home Depot speaker wire. ..And a Radio Shack interconnect to a pricey AudioQuest (from CD player). Before doing so I pushed the speakers right next to each other to keep contributions of room reflections reasonable consistent for each speaker. I then used the balance control to quickly alternate b/w the two. I've suggested this from of comparison hear at Klipsch forum but haven't been able to convince anyone to try it (of if they have they haven't mentioned it). What amp are you using Chief bonehead that has a mono switch? ..Just curious. ..There aren't many around these days.

Not me, my kids or my wife could hear one iota of difference. ..And, like me, they are also music obsessives who care a great deal about fidelity. How else could I get away with having speakers the size of coffins in our great room?

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Whatever issues you're eluding to apparently matter less than the improvement of having everything coming from the center. And I will occasionally playback in "mono" and completely attenuate the other channel if I'm sitting right next to one of the speakers

They don't add more noise by themselves, it's the additional interconnects, power cables, and outlets they necessitate that introduce more opportunities for hum & hiss. Normally, the resultant noise may not be noticeable, but it very will might be with horn speakers.

One option to consider is maybe selling the separates and getting an integrated amplifier. There are plenty of choices (used or new) w/ more than enough power, including some McIntosh and Parasound options since you seem to like those brands. One problem with horn speakers, including the F3's, is their very high efficiency will allow ANY electrical noise or hum in your system to be much more audible. With separates you have the power amplifier, pre-amp, DAC, phono pre-amp, etc.. all having their own set of interconnects, their own power cord and often plugged into different outlets. This paves the way for hum/ buzz issues that are far less likely when all of these components are properly integrated into one chassis, using one power supply, one power outlet and one ground. You'll loose nothing in terms of fidelity with an integrated amplifier but may gain quite a bit in terms of fewer buzz/ hum headaches which can be more common w/ high-efficiency speakers. ...Just a thought.

It was Schu who was innacurate; he said it was made from ply. I was correcting him ..You really are sensitive about this MDF issue.

Not what I said and I think you know that. The fit and finish of the previous K-horn was not worthy of it's $10k pricetag. It sold in spite of this b/c it sounded so good. ..But would have probably sold better had it's fit/finish compared favorably with other speakers. ..There are $1000 speakers that have better fit/finish that what you see below. And don't forget, it was also made from MDF. (see Spec. sheet on website).

This amp, when driving my Cornwall III's, is absolutely indistinguishable from McIntosh MA6600. ..Granted, the CW's are quite easy to drive. ..But so too are Klipschorns. So, just so I understand, you think a nicer amp than this driving a "great pair of monitors" would sound better than the this amp driving a pair of Klipschorns? What is this amp doing in the 2-3 watts it would take to adequately drive the Klipschorns that would make them sound terrible? ..It's quiet, has little cross-talk, and far far far from reaching it's 50watt capability. So why would you expect it to sound terrible? ..Other than it's $130 cost?

That is a beautiful integrated!! ..It's regrettable that sooo few manufacturers these days include such a feature set on their pre-amps or integrateds like what you had on your Luxman. Tone controls, I believe, do no harm whatsoever when left out of the circuit. But every so often I find a song is unlistenable without some sort of tone adjustment. In such cases, they are a godsend. Same for mono. ..In the past few days I listened to a handful of albums in mono b/c the stereo imaging was way overcooked. Surprisingly, this included John Coltranes "A love Supreme" on vinyl. The drums were audible ONLY from the right speaker, even when pressing my ear to the left speaker. ..And ditto the sax from the left. Not sure if it was mixed this way or miced. ..Either way, it sounded way more natural in mono.

How about this? Is this a "shitty" amp? https://www.crutchfield.com/S-clj2c5EHAL2/p_021AMP100V/AudioSource-AMP100VS.html

he moved the F3s to the same spot and used the same gear and music. ..He just didn't swap out the still photo.

Or really anywhere where you can hear each side-by-side, with your own music and in fairly quick succession. Which is exactly what I was able to do. Here's a video of someone comparing the two. ..For what it's worth.

I've heard BOTH F3's and CW3's in the same setup and day. ..To my ears, the CW3s are more dynamic, extend deeper and sound more open even a lower volumes. Though I could have been happy w/ F3s, it was a very easy decision. ..I bought the CW3's and have zero regrets.

I have a strong hunch there's a fair amount of overseas-sourced electronic components and perhaps even assemblies in some (if not many) of his PS Audio products. If correct, he's in no position to criticize.

More food for thought for any beginners still reading this thread (not likely, but remotely possible). Though not explicitly stated, the article seems to support my point that how a system sounds is determined mostly by speaker selection. The 10 Top Lies in Audio (begins on pg. 5) https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

he's a charlatan, imho. While he's busy wondering what PW might think of present day Klipsch corp., he should also think what Paul would have thought about his magical AC Power Cables. ..Point to his BS button, I'm guessing. His peddling of these nonsense products is shameful and discrediting. It's hard to imagine how he explains these cables to an electrical engineer or indeed anyone with any kind of a science background. He mentions engineering staff. ..Well I wonder what sort of engineering rigor went into these silly products.

delete duplicate.

On another website they're saying it's $6500 US. I wouldn't buy it, but I can definitely image a customer who would: Someone who has very very limited space and has caught the vinyl bug. ..Oh, and makes a lot of $$. Paired w/ a pair of Heresy III's I'm sure it would sound quite nice. 50w/ch would drive the H3's to crazy loud levels. Not every would be audiophile can accommodate the component-clutter and associated tangle of cables that goes along w/ separate Amp/ Pre/ and streaming receiver. ..And since a TT can only be reduced so much in size, what not build those ever-shrinkable components into a sold, well-engineered TT?? In a small Manhattan, Chicago, or San Francisco loft, a wealthy millennial might find this to be a perfect solution. To criticize this on the grounds that you could do so so much better w/ $6500 by going w/ separate components is to state the obvious but also totally misses the point. I give McIntosh credit for coming up with a new category of product.

Wow, they sorta disappear into the background like Bose Acoustimass.

Tone controls AND a mono switch?! ..Love it! Very cool.

Beautiful. ...Just the sort of cosmetic makeover the Klipschorn needed. The previous version, though sounding magnificent, simply lacked the tidy fit/finish that people expect of a speaker that costs $1000, let alone $14000!! ..Screws and rubber trim that seem haphazardly and unsymmetrically placed; the support bracket for the horn leaning to one side; side trim panels that didn't appear to fit well, and so on and so on. The speaker sounded great, but looked very much like a home shop project when compared alongside speakers costing half as much from Vandersteen, Dynaudio, Paradigm, KEF, etc.. etc.. The fit issues wouldn't have prevented me from owning a pair but I'm sure it did others. Those issue have been addressed. Well done Klipsch.