ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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How much listening have you been doing and at what volumes?? I ask this b/c it's not unusual when someone auditions or buys new speakers to binge-listen, then - after hours of non-stop loud listening - express disappointment that they're suffering from of listening-fatigue. ..So it may not be the speakers fault.
Contrary to what some audiophiles believe, accurate high-end audio speaker WILL cause listener fatigue when played for too long and too loud, even w/ perfectly recorded music featuring excellent musician. This is true of live music, so why shouldn't it be true w/ an accurate hifi system? Trumpets, violins, flutes, even guitars - just to name a few - will begin to grate if listened to for too long.
IMHO, If your system NEVER causes fatigue then it's too rolled-off to ever faithfully reproduce live music.
Added: ..Years ago I bought Vandersteen 3A Sigs and chose them over many other speakers b/c the NEVER seemed to grate on me no matter how long I listened and no matter how loud. ...The problem with them was that I found I listened to music a lot less b/c they NEVER really excited me. My Cornwalls are FAR more exciting; so much so that I listen to them all the time. ..And yes, occasionally, I have to either turn them a bit down or give my treble control a 1/4 turn to the left. ..Still, I'd chose them over EVERY speaker I've owned - some costing twice as much. .
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Remember that these are matched pairs so just replacing the one speaker wouldn’t do.
I had to send back my first two pairs of Cornwall‘s because of issues. Part of the problem is that Klipsch does not do a very good job of packaging their Heritage speakers. The cardboard is too thin and there is two little protective foam around the speakers.
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29 minutes ago, ironman said:
There is no doubt that the use of higher quality cables results in improved speaker performance, but for real-world purposes the point of diminishing returns is heavily skewed toward the cheaper end.
Not to derail the thread, but that is NOT settled fact. And it seems PWK felt the same.
You can do the same test w/ speaker cables that I proposed for biwiring. ..Try it and report back please.
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4 minutes ago, Deano1974 said:
People can believe what they want, it is called free will, if someone wants to believe they hear a difference then so be it, and if someone does not then again so be it
Every single one of us hears differently, case in point some people love tubes and others love solid state
At the end of the day their opinon is there opinon
Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk
Yes.. Of course. ..People are free to believe what they want. ..But people are also free to express a point of view that challenges others' believes.
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Single vs. biwire is one audio belief that is soooo easy for each and every audiphile to test for themselves - just as I outlined in my post above - yet so few do it. ..Again, this hobby's distain for empirical evidence is maddening.
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Do what I did...
Biwire one channel, push your speakers right beside each other and have someone use the balance control on your receiver (or pre-amp) to switch back and forth b/w the speakers while playing a mono recording as you listen very carefully. Better yet, have your volunteer biwire one of the speakers w/out telling which.
I did this. ..Not me, nor anyone in my house was able to hear one speck of a difference. ..Honestly, I was disappointed to find that my new CW III's had 2 sets of binding post b/c it meant that PWK's no bull$hit approach to speaker design had been broken.
Biwiring is a total myth, IMHO. Please report back the conclusion you come to if you try the experiment I described.
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5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
Well if you think the forte I is better than the CWIII, you would crap your pants over the forte III.
shakey
Again, hyperbolic language that simply doesn't make sense. ..I've heard all these versions (over the course of time) and NONE is so dramatically better than the previous as to leave one gobsmacked (or incontinent as you suggest). ..Sheesh. Instead, the improvements are very incremental and maybe even barely perceptible if compared in a way so as to reduce bias .
All of this underscores the need for the OP to find a store where he can make these comparisons himself using the same gear, same room, and same music at carefully matched volumes.
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17 minutes ago, Deang said:
The problem with dealers is not the appearance of Heritage, but an unwillingness to give up the floor space for them. There is also the simple issue of WAF - most wives do not want these behemoths in their homes.
I just visited my first high end retailer in a decade. They had a pair of $30K Focal floorstanders, and some nice Dynaudio monitors that I liked - until I found out they were $6000 a pair.
Big Heritage would have destroyed everything in the store.
Well if you've only visited one high end retailer in a decade, then don't be so sure. ..I've been to dozens and I've seen MANY very large speakers. This includes the TOL Wilson, JBL Synthesis Everest, TOL McIntosh, Dynaudio, Vandersteen 5A's and so on. ..Each of these speakers was as large (or nearly) as Klipschorns, but EVERY ONE was significantly more attractive or at least had far better fit/finish. Not ONE of these stores had a Khorn.
As for the Big Heritage "destroying everything in the store". ..I do hate that sort of hyperbole. The speakers I mention above are fabulous speakers even if I might prefer the Klipschorns. "Destroying" does not apply in audio unless you're comparing a modern day high-end ystem to, say, a wind-up Victrola.
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This should go a long way in helping Klipsch sell more Klipschorns. To start with, more dealers will feel confident having them on hand for customers to hear. ..As wonderful as they sound I'm sure dealers were quite reluctant to have any on display because of their homemade-like appearance. That and the fact that they need to be situated tightly in corners that are at least 18-20 ft. apart. Not much you can do about the latter, but addressing their appearance will definitely get more of these AWESOME speakers in people's homes.
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2 hours ago, teashea said:
Thank you very much for the information ---- actually CW's are not so very much more expensive than the Forte III's. I appreciate you assistance/
Well, 800 bucks certainly is not insignificant 🙂 it’s more than enough to buy an integrated amplifier more than capable of driving either speaker. Having reread your post I do wonder if the Cornwalls wouldn’t be more suitable just based on the size of your room. My room is 16 feet wide and I think the Cornwall’s are better suited.
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I compared both the same morning, in the same room same, listening to the same music. To my ears the CWIIIs sounded more dynamic, extended deeper, and at least matched the FIIIs for resolution, if not slightly bettered them. One other CWIII advantage was how full and enjoyable they sound even at very low volumes, which I am sometimes forced to listen at so as to not wake people.
As I see it, the Corwall IiIs are clearly better speakers which they ought to be considering they are significantly more expensive. So it’s a question of whether your budget and your room can accommodate them. If not, the Forte IIIs come awfully close. I can’t imagine anyone being unhappy with either.
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10 hours ago, boom3 said:
I agree with both of you, but I think Klipsch is concentrating on the esthetics that are visible once the Khorn is in the corner. Other high end brands are plunked in the floor where almost all sides are visible.
While this is true to an extent I still think most people contemplating spending $15K will want to have a look at the whole speaker - front AND back - before buying. And once they look around the speaker, I'd have to think many potential buyers would be disappointed to see all the things I mentioned. Let's face it, the current version looks like an amateurish wood-shop project once you get past the veneered part of the speaker. Again, this wouldn't stop a fan-boy such as I but it would others. And if we are truly fans of this brand, we should want them to broaden their appeal so as to continue thriving.
My previous speakers were Paradigm Signature S8 v2s. ..Even though it was strongly recommended in the manual and all reviews that the grills be left ON (i.e., all measurements - which were absolutely superlative - were taken w/ grills on), the fit/finish under the grill was absolutely gorgeous. Klipsch needn't go as far a Paradigm, but it's not asking much to expect that all screws are symmetrically located, all end-grain of the ply-wood be fully filled or maybe veneered, and the rubber trim is attached w/ greater care. And looking at the pics of the new iteration, it looks like they've done exactly that.
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A closed back would be nice, but I'd be satisfied if they'd just clean up the build aesthetics a bit. For $15k speakers, the fit/ finish should be a bit nicer than this. I'm referring to wood screws that don't seem precisely symmetrically located, lots of flash and mold marks on the backs of the horns, the bracket supporting the horn being canted to one side, the rubber trim looking different from side to side. Please understand that I'd still buy them as they are, but like most of you here, I'm a fan-boy. ..But if Klipsch wants to stay competitive they need to sell to more than just other fan-boys. They need to sway some of those who will be comparing them side-by-side with Dynaudios, Paradigms, KEFs, Vandersteens, etc. I'd bet my lunch money they've been hearing this from their dealers too. Sounding better matters a great deal, but cosmetics matter too. Yes, the veneered part of the Klipschorn is beautiful, but the rest of the speaker just needs to look nicer, imho.
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1 hour ago, Deang said:
If the difference is immediately obvious, I would say it's a "big" difference. If it takes a couple of CD's to pick up on the subtleties, then that would be a small difference. With that kind of thing, it might even be hard to decide which you prefer - one thing isn't obviously "better" than the other.
McIntosh has a "house sound" that many prefer. They are built with quality components and great care. They're also expensive (by my standards). A used MA6600 integrated costs about $4000 ($6500 list). You have a turntable that retails for $1700. With so little, if any difference between varying components, you either wasted a lot of money, or don't really believe what you're saying.
Although I don’t believe my Mac amp sounds different than any Of the amps I’ve had prior, there are a great many reasons for buying it. For starters, I love the feel, the look, the build quality and the fact that it is largely handcrafted in upstate New York. Plus, I love the feature set, Including: mono/stereo switch, bass/treble controls, trims to adjust the volume level for all inputs, and wattage meters that help ensure I’m not over driving my speakers. Basically, I see owning a McIintosh amp as being roughly equivalent to owning an expensive watch: yes, it’s frivolous and unnecessary but it is satisfying and enjoyable all the same. I am not critical of owning expensive gear, only of believing it sounds better. Speakers are the lone exception, imho.
I don’t own a motorcycle or boat or an expensive car. My audio system is pretty much my only extravagance . As for my turntable, I do believe there are audible differences between modern day tables but these differences disappear once speed accuracy, W&F, and rumble achieve certain measurable levels. In short, the SL-1200 solves all these problems and spending more yields little in terms of audible improvement. Again, imho
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19 hours ago, Schu said:
Blind... whether double blind or not... is NOT a proper test for quality. It's a test that distinguishes the difference in listeners, not those of listening devices.
The constant referral to its use as a reference for quality is ludicrous.
Not to Derail this thread but I find that to be patently ridiculous. As I’ve said before, this hobby’s relative distain for empirical evidence is incredible and likely explains why so relatively few people participate in it.
I find it amazing that while we all seem to appreciate the good work of the highly skilled electrical and mechanical engineers who design our gear we at the same time detach ourselves from the scientific method that is the very foundation of what they do. I strongly suspect the engineers who work at audio gear companies have tremendous skepticism about audiophiles because of the “huge” differences they claim to hear between amps, CD players, dacs, etc.. By that token, I suspect PWK himself would as Well... just a hunch
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who knows, maybe they're just not your cup of tea. ..it happens. Of course, it never hurts to make sure he didn't have them connected out of phase or that the tone controls were not zero'd. ..Beyond that, and sensible positioning within the room of course, there's not much else you can do. ..I would NOT give much credence to any claims some might make that it could be due to poor synergy b/w the speakers and the Luxman integrated. That's nonsense IHMO. ..That's a fine integrated amp that is designed to be linear at any reasonable volume, driving any reasonable speaker. Again, they just might not be for you.
I love my cornwalls and could not fathom EVER adding a sub. ..In fact, that's why I didn't even consider La Scala's.
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33 minutes ago, Deang said:
When I first came to the forum I used to consistently refer to Klipschorns as "ear bleeders" - having only ever heard them with a Crown DC-300. I still rate that up there with one of the most god awful sounds I've ever heard.
An amplifier can definitely make or break the sound.
I think DBT is pretty much a waste.
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/arts/sound-amplifiers-test-their-listeners.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/183/editorial.htm
With HT receivers, even relatively nice ones -- all of the money goes into the front end (the processing section), while the amplifier sections tend to be somewhat anemic.
Those articles you linked to did little to discredit blinded testing.
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23 minutes ago, wantabeach said:
Is it really a Cornwall after you do all that? No offense but that bothers me for some reason. I guess there’s not wrong with doing some of your own speaker engineering to taste.
I really do like the balance of a factory Cornwall. I want to try LS but my bet is that I might not like the bass and overall thinner sound.
I totally agree. No offense to Mr. Crites, but there’s not a chance I would modify my new Cornwall threes. It’s amusing how on one the hand we are all about love and praise for Klipsch engineering then on the other hand we’re eager to start yanking out components without any clear empirical proof we are improving things. But it is not just with Klipsch, or even speakers… There is a whole “I won’t be satisfied with it until I modify it” subculture within this hobby. To each his or her own, personally I leave everything I buy precisely as it was out of the box.
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Well, $4000 GB is $5300 US. As much as I loved the sound of the F3’s when I heard them, $5300 puts them in a whole other price category.
As for the rest of the review, I think it underscores a point I made in another thread about the need for speakers to be initially auditioned from behind an opaque screen. Given his comments about horn’s and his prior knowledge of Klisch speakers it’s quite possible there was a fair amount of expectation bias at play.
It would be fascinating to read audition notes when the reviewer doesn’t know if a speaker is a horn design, # of drivers, cabinet size, country of origin, cost, etc.
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Sorry, but no amplifier is going to change speakers from "hate 'em to love 'em". If ANY audible differences exist b/w modern day amplifiers and AVR's (most double blinded testing suggests there is NOT) they are apt to be very very very very small - certainly not enough to change how you feel about your speakers. ..Of course, this assume you have your AVR set-up properly (read: all tone controls zero'd/ off)
Look, there is no shame in admitting that Forte IIIs may not be for you. ..I think they sound great, but there's bound to be those who don't. ..Of course, one has to wonder how you came to own them without first confirming you like their sound. If I were you, I'd first confirm my Pioneer is working properly then, assuming it is, I'd sell the Fortes and pursue another pair of speakers. This time, spend copious amounts of time listening before buying.
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18 minutes ago, garyrc said:
It probably would not be clean SPL that would be the issue. By my calculations, Heresy III should be able to produce THX's Reference Level SPL from a main speaker (rather than from a subwoofer) of 105 dB at 30 to 50 watts at 13 feet in a normal room (neither dead nor live, about 3,000 cu ft.). That would be 105 dB continuous, through the H III's woofer, but I wouldn't recommend that with any speaker. Parenthetically, I would think that the Heresy III would need a subwoofer.
So, now we have the problem of decoding what the reviewer meant. I'm guessing he means, perhaps without realizing it, that the Heresy III, and other speakers with a horn midrange and treble, do not veil or gild the sound as much as many so-called "High end" speakers do, so, he is warning that they may be too revealing. A worry is that they may expose the Achilles Heal of certain components, such as phono cartridges/arms, listening rooms, and amplifiers. These components get blamed for a lot, as do speakers, especially horn speakers. IMO, it's time we faced the inconvenient truth that, "It's the recordings, stupid!" I imagine we all have favorite recordings that are not only beautiful, but essentially flaw free. I imagine we all have some harsh recordings for which the CD medium (itself), solid state electronics, or horn speakers unfairly get the blame. With direct radiating mid and high frequency speakers, the imbalance, and harshness of recordings that have the frequencies between about 800 and 5k boosted, sometimes savagely, may be partially covered up, blurred, and concealed, by over-excursion (Doppler distortion, i.e., modulation distortion) as well as a variety of other types of distortion. Horns are often clearer, so they may reveal the harshness.
See Chris A's posts on de-mastering.
As one of the characters in The Last American (a mid 19th century novella) says, "Truth is a bitter pill, but a good physic."
Wow, thanks for an informative and thoughtful post. ..Not much to disagree with. And if I could, I'd like to point to another (if a bit tangential) inconvenient truth.. Which is, some instruments ARE harsh sounding when heard live if heard too long and from too close. Hence, these instruments can and will fatigue a listener when played on an accurate audio system. I mention this b/c I've heard it said of Klipsch Khorns and Cornwalls that they cause listening fatigue. From years of playing and listening to live music I can attest that live trumpets, flutes, violins, etc.. can and will begin to grate even in the best of venues played by the best of musicians, so to seek an audio system that NEVER causes listening fatigue is so seek an audio system than is not wholly accurate.
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17 hours ago, dwilawyer said:
Pretty good article.
Here is the link
https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-119-ken-micallef-june-2018
That comment about the Khorns sure hIghtens my interest in hearing a pair
But I don't understand the remark:
"Choosing the correct ancillary components is a must with the Heresy"
Why?!! Given their very high efficiency, I can't imagine ANY modern day amplifier having difficulty cleanly driving them to ear-damaging levels. Though I generally use my McIntosh MA6600 to drive my cornwalls, I did - just for fun - listen to them with the $100 50w AudioSource AMP 100 integrated I use for my deck speakers. ..And they sounded just as terrific - clean, clear, smooth, and to insane volume levels.
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14 hours ago, wvu80 said:
I have admit to being undecided on that issue. I take it you are in the camp "if it can't be measured it isn't real?"
My being wishy-washy is because I've never understood how someone can look at a chart and decide if a thing sounds good or not. I think some of you charts-and-graphs guys might be able to do that, but I sure can't.
My common sense says you can hear things that can't be measured but (duh) I don't have any data to back that up!
I don’t believe that measurements are everything, but I do believe that if the differences people claim to hear between speakers, cables, amplifiers, cd players, etc. can’t be reliably identified while blinded, then the differences aren’t really there.. just mho
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3 hours ago, hammershaug said:
To be honest, I’m considering many things. Mostly solid state. Right now I have borrowed another integrated tube amp; PrimaLuna Dialogue with KT120. Seems to be a better match than the LM SET-amp. Sounds really great! Best I’ve heard on my Forte III so far.
I’m also interested in a almost new McIntosh MA 5200 for sale in Norway these days. $3600 is still a lot of money, and I find It hard to splash out without knowing the result...
Anyone tried a big Mac or PrimaLuna on FIII?I am using a Mcintosh MA6600 to drive my new Cornwall iii’s. It sounds great While my amp is 100 W more powerful than the 5300 I very much doubt that will matter. The fortes are so efficient that they won’t need much more than 20 or 30 Watts at the very most . While my speakers are a little more efficient I seldom see the wattage meters go beyond 5 W. And it is crazy loud at that point.
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New Heresy III speakers arrived damaged... WWYD?
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
I had to send a pair of Cornwall’s back because of shipping damage. Once again, I’m compelled to point out that as wonderful as their speakers are Klipschs shipping boxes are woefully under engineered. The box material is way too thin and the corner edge protection is minimal. After my first pair showed damage, I actually went to the distribution center of the dealer where I bought mine and looked over several pairs before picking one. Every single pair had dings and dents to the box; par for the course considering how big and how far they travel. So if it’s predictable the speakers will get knocked, then Klipsch really needs to improve their packaging
These are the best speakers I’ve ever owned but they were the most poorly packaged of any speaker I have owned.