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ODS123

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Posts posted by ODS123

  1.  

    33 minutes ago, MerkinMuffley said:

    How good is our short term and working memory? See here: 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory

     

    The entire premise of AB/X is based on a working memory that can differentiate between two massive data sets. Impossible.

     

    So explain how we can reliably (ie., to  satistically significant degree) distinguish b/w speakers using AB/X testing?  ..And I don't see where in the website you reference this is specifically addressed.

  2. 56 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

     

     

    Ok, I'll bite.

     

    If all amps (within their specific power rating) sound the same, what criteria do you judge the one you purchase by? Is it bells and whistles, color of the case, how much it weighs? Or what?

     

    I mean if a 100 watt per channel receiver that costs 200.00 has all the gew gaws you desire in such a piece of crap, why would you buy a 500.00 amplifier with the same power rating and same gee gaws? They will certainly sound the same right?

     

    I have never been able to quite wrap my head around the "scientific objectivist methodology" of  how you guys choose equipment. I know how I do it, by which thing sounds the best. But when that is discarded, there isn't a whole lot left...........

     

    Actually, it's not so hard at all to explain.

     

    In choosing an amp I look at feature set, build quality, industrial design, a good warranty and reputation for reliability.  I bought a McIntosh MA6600 integrated b/c I love it's features, it's build-quality, the way it looks and feels when I operate it.  And I like that the meters can help prevent over-driving my speakers.  .But do I believe it sounds any better than the NAD 375BEE that had before it - that is, when not pushed beyond it's power limits?  ..Nope.  And I have excellent hearing and a keen sense for musical nuance honed from a lifelong devotion to music.

     

    Just because I know all modern-day amps that are engineered to be linear will sound the same doesn't mean I don't have an appreciation for other aspects of their design.

     

  3. 13 hours ago, MerkinMuffley said:

    Our senses are very delicate with great resolution, but our "sense memory" is unreliable, and that's why ABX testing isn't very useful to determine differences in tastes, colors, smells, sounds, or tactility. We have no recorders in our brain to facilitate the comparison of a complex sound heard 30 seconds ago, to one we are hearing this moment. Our sense perceptions are not comparators.

     

    If ABX testing was valid the audio industry would look a lot like the phone industry where a small number of standard platforms are judged the winners and the whole market becomes commodified around small variations of the winning platforms. Audio is nothing at all like that. The market thinks there are differences worth supporting, and the manufactures think there are differences worth investing their R&D.

     

    It's simply not true that our brains can't compare sounds that are separated by 30 secs.  As Don Richard noted, this is exactly what conductors and band leaders do.  Musicians do this all the time when choosing which guitar or strings to use for a given song.  ..Or what recording engineers and producers do when mixing a song.   And does anyone dispute our ability to distinguish b/w speakers when using a ABX comparator.  Of course not.

     

    As to your second point, I think the opposite is true.  ..If amplifiers indeed sounded so different there would be no need to expend so much effort on their appearance.  1/2" faceplates, over-engineered casework, etc...   If they sounded different, they wouldn't need to look so different.  

     

    As I've said before, this hobby is badly damaged by it's general disregard for validity testing.  

    • Like 1
  4. It’s not your age, not your failing ears….  It’s just healthy skepticism that leads you wonder whether the huge difference some people claim to hear are real or imagined.

     

    Rather than spend an hour laying out the rationale for my opinion, I’ll direct you to this website:

     

    http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

     

    Here’s a simple way of looking at this:  The mere fact that the audibility of differences b/w amplifiers is actually debated is hugely informative.  ..Just how important can the differences be if such a debate exists ??  We NEVER have such arguments about differences b/w speakers or room acoustics, etc..

     

    My .02$:  The realism of your hifi system is 50% speakers; 49% room acoustics: 1% audible differences b/w modern amplifiers, cd players, DACs, etc….

     

    • Like 1
  5. 13 minutes ago, analogman said:

    Think it best to not get into debating the merits, motives (or extolling the virtues) of the two in a forum setting

    I only have to say if I had a Mk.II I'd purchased new in the condition yours is in I'd have no desire for the re-issue, even the new and improved "limited edition" 

    Allegedly, they only made 1200 of them, so if you're going to do it you better get busy!

    I have a hunch, they've all been bought by now though, that or you'll be paying a lot more than Technic's original suggested retail for the machine

    The "GR" version will probably be around for a while 

    My Son is currently stationed in Japan and the "GR"s are everywhere - not so much for the "GAE"

    Good luck

     

    Actually, I meant the "G" version.  ..I keep getting them confused.  ..Yes, all the new GAE's are sold; a few turn up used.

     

    If I had the money I might consider the SL-1000R but that's crazy expensive.

     

    And if you feel the G's aren't as good as the old mk2, please share your thoughts.  ...I started this thread so it's not like you're hijacking it.  ..I'm truly interested.  thx A-Man. 

  6. 1 hour ago, analogman said:

    The only thing I find outstandingly good about it is it will play 78s

     

    Good b/c I have hundreds of 78's.    ..J/K, actually I don't have a single 78, so that isn't my motivation.

     

    My reason is really just the collectability factor of the GAE..  ..I am so enamored w/ these Sl-1200 turntables that I have been pining for a GAE since they were announced.  That said, I do NOT have any expectation that it's going to sound so much better as to justify the cost.  And that is usually how it goes w/ high-end audio: returns diminish as you spend more.  So I guess I'll admit it is mostly a pride-of-ownership kind of thing.  

     

    That said, I certainly would expect it to sound every bit as good as my MKII.  Are you saying the new 1200's aren't as good as the old ones?

     

    Thanks for weighing in :)  ..Much appreciated.

  7. 2 hours ago, LarryC said:

    Integrateds also are usually extremely quiet, because they handle gain-matching between the preamp and the amplfier internally.  Minimizing hiss and noise can be difficult if there are mismatches between pre-amp phonostage gain, preamp line stage gain, amplifier gain, and speaker efficiency.  Integrateds usually take care of all that with internal gain-matching.

     

     

    So you gave a technical explanation for what I've noticed in my own experience.  The separates I've owned (B&K, Bryston) had more noise and hum than any of my integrateds or receivers (Onkyo, NAD, Peachtree, and now McIntosh).  

     

    As an aside they also both struggled w/ maintaining volume consistency b/w both channels.  For example, when you slowly turned the volume all the way down you could easily notice that one channel would go quiet before the other.  ..Very annoying. This was an issue when listening at low levels during the early am hours.  Thankfully, they both had Balance controls so I could bring the channels back in line.  Lastly, they both had cross-talk b/w inputs.  For ex. with the CD player paused, and the volume fairly loud,  I could hear FM music coming from the tuner on the adjacent input.  

     

    It just seemed like the very thing separates were supposed to do better, they didn't at all. 

  8. 41 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

    And apparently, you didn't take into account the angle at which the photos were taken.  Everything you mentioned could be PERFECTLY aligned, but you just wouldn't know that from the photo.

     

    umm..  not buying it.  A different angle isn't going to make a screw appear higher on the trim board.  ..Or account for why the rubber trim is crooked on one side.

     

    Look, I'm a fan of the brand.  I just spent $4000 on a pair of Cornwalls, and I love them!!  But I'm still going to be objective.  The back side of their flagship speaker should display greater attention to finishing detail.  I agree they sound awesome.  But if bought this pair, I'd be asking for replacement.  ..Or if I were to order a pair I'd tell them to be mindful about all screws being symmetrically placed.  How hard would it be to have a jig or template that helps ensure proper screw positioning and to turn every screw in until it's consistently flush?  Check out their cheapest pair of bookshelf speakers and you'll see better finish on the back.  

  9. An interesting thread. ..While I haven't heard pretty much ANY of these speakers, I can say I loved how the Klipschorn's sound.

     

    But there is one area in which the Klipschorn's do not always compare very favorably with at least some of the comparably priced speakers -  that is fit & finish.  Take a look at the following pics that are screenshots from the Klipsch website.  Note how the screws aren't symmetrically positioned on both sides of the centerline, and notice how the rubber trim is sort of slipshod.  Also the bracket supporting the horn isn't centered.  In the bottom pic you can see that some screws are countersunk as others sit above the surface.  This is a sample of Klipsch's Flagship speaker displayed on their website!   Yes, I know it's the sound that matters most but when you're talking about $15,000 speakers (CORRECTION! $12,000), the finish DOES matter to a significant degree.

     

     

    Screen Shot 2018-04-06 at 10.37.42 AM.png

    Screen Shot 2018-04-06 at 10.38.11 AM.png

  10. 18 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

    There's no reason to pay full list for any speaker. The dealer has a huge profit with full list.

     

    ...I understand.  I didn't pay full list for my Cornwalls.  ..But the profit margin isn't as huge as you think.  .Don't forget the enormous costs of a B&B business.  Hence, the scarcity of retailers who have Heritage line speakers on hand for auditioning.   

     

    • Like 1
  11. 3 minutes ago, augustya30 said:

    Ok, firstly though I am looking out for kind of speakers which I would mostly use to and listen to by stream img some Progressive House and Techno Music from sites like Spotify and Apple Music, But having said that I do enjoy listening to Rock, Jazz and Pop music aswell. My first exposure to Klipsch Speakers was 10 years back, when I had heard the Klipsch Promedia GMX 2.1 Jesus Christ what kind of amazing beast was that !! Holy Cow ! I have never ever...ever..in my life ever heard a speaker which had a BASS like that, it would literally make me feel goosebumps in my stomach, and that is how I fell in love with Klipsch as a speaker company. So the point I am trying to make is I am looking out for a truly versatile speaker which is mostly tilted towards heavy BASS, but can deliver an all round performance in any genre of Music. So I want to differ with you in opinion when you say I should not be looking at Klipsch Speakers atall. In fact Klipsch is the Bid Daddy of Haevay Bass sounding Speakers is what I feel. How would this combo work out, Klipsch a reference R-15PM + 10" inch Sub+Woofer or the Klipsch Sixes + an external Sub (I need to decide on what sub would be adequate for me, haven't completely freezed that) So I do not agree with you and @JohnA that I should not be looking at Klipsch !

     

    Well, ok...  But the way you described it, heck, I thought you wanted Studio 54 in your home, or maybe Jesse Pinkman's set up :)  

     

    If you loved the Promedia GMX setup, then you should be more than happy with the R-15PM and a Sub.  ..Or if budget allows, Consider Heritage Heresy's.  ANY inexpensive A/V receiver would do just fine driving the Heresy's.  

  12. Your question made me smile as it reminded me a bit of the episode in Breaking Bad when Jesse went and bought a Club sound system for his smallish living room.

     

    Anyway, not to sound like a snob but good hi-fidelity speakers aren't supposed to accentuate any frequency range, including bass - this includes Klipsch.   If you're looking for "earth shattering bass, humongous, ground-shaking night club" type bass, then you're probably not that interested in accuracy.

     

    As such, I would recommend you peruse websites that sell dance club sound systems, since that is the type of sound you're most interested in.  Because these are engineered more for volume than accuracy, you may find you can get away spending a lot less than you would on, say, a pair of Cornwalls or RF-7iii's etc..  Take a look at B&H photo website.  A pair of PA speakers and matching subs could probably be bought for less than $2000, and most of these are powered, so you wouldn't need an amp.

     

    Take a look at this one page on their website.  Two Behringer PA speakers and a matching sub would cost less than $1000.  My personal opinion is that it would sound borderline awful, but that is also my personal opinion of the "thumpy" Disco sound you seem to be going for (sorry). 

     

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?setNs=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&Ns=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&ci=12322&srtclk=sort&N=3992462025

     

    These speakers are powered so no amp required.  ..Simply plug in a wireless bluetooth music adapter ($40-50) or an Amazon Echo, and you can stream music from your iPad, etc...

     

    lastly, a pic of Jesse's system:

     

     

     

    Screen Shot 2018-04-05 at 11.57.25 AM.png

  13. 13 minutes ago, Schu said:

    $5600 isn't a great price to be brutally honest...

     

    Are you serious?  They list for $4000/ spkr.  A $2400 discount for a blemish isn't enough?   ..Totally disagree.  That said, I'd still buy Cornwall III's at full list.  ..But that's just b/c I think they sound better.  ..just MHO.

  14. 34 minutes ago, teaman said:

    After hearing several Klipsch employees and retailers, they made it clear that Klipsch really doesn't let B Stock out the door any more. So to me, if you are indeed selling B Stock I would question how. Maybe the people that spoke up are misdirected but I would go by their thoughts on whether or not to buy from this guy.

     

    When and who?  ..Sorry, but I would want something more definitive before I'd conclude this guy is selling off-label.  What you're saying sounds like hearsay.

     

    At minimum, I'd call the seller and ask for some evidence that warranty for these speakers would be honored by Klipsch.

     

    added:  Heck, we're on the Klipsch website for goodness sake.  Can't someone from Klipsch take a look at the A-gon listing and tell us if it's bogus or not?

     

     

  15. While I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to patronize a rogue dealer,  I also wouldn't want to impugn a sellers reputation unfairly.  Isn't it possible he's selling these on the internet w/ Klipsch's blessing??  Many mfgs have different rules regarding b-stock items.  

     

    If I were in the market for La Scala's I'd put in a call to Klipsch to make sure they would regard this as an authorized sale.

  16. If an amp (or integrated) is misbehaving I'd recommend immediately removing it from your system and getting it fixed.  I had a B&K amp behave in a similar way.  I thought I'd ignore it until the problem became more consistent then one day "poof!!" a loud pop, a small ball of flame and smoke.  Thankfully, the amp didn't damage my Vandersteens nor the B&K Pro-10MC preamp upstream.  I sent it to B&K and was told it was basically irrepairable.  ..I'm pretty sure had I sent it in before it blew, it would have been. 

     

    • Like 1
  17. 32 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

    I listened to both the Forte 3 and Cornwall 3 before buying the C3.  ..If you are space or budget constrained, then you'll love the F3's.  ..But if space and budget allow, there was no mistaking that the C3's sound more dynamic, and extend lower.  ..Pretty much what one would expect given the larger enclosure, etc..  Prog rock will sound awesome on either.  (as would any other type of music :)

     

    I listened and purchased mine from worldwide stereo near philadelphia.  ..Very nice people.  Both were in stock when I went to audition, but it would be best to make an appt. so they can have both pairs on hand.

     

    their website: https://worldwidestereo.com

     

     

     

    It's important to point out that I was able to listen to BOTH of these side by side in the same listening room with little time elapsing b/c comparisons.   ..Listening environment contributes greatly to how a speaker sounds.  I'd be a bit skeptical of any comparison that was made in different settings.  

  18. 9 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

    Very nice room. Your speakers match the cabinet, did you plan that, or just got lucky?

     

    Thanks!   The great room was planned around my system, which includes this built-in cherry cabinetry.    At the time, my speakers were Paradigm S8 v2's, in Cherry.  ..Thankfully, the Cornwall's in Cherry matched every bit as nicely.

    • Like 1
  19. I listened to both the Forte 3 and Cornwall 3 before buying the C3.  ..If you are space or budget constrained, then you'll love the F3's.  ..But if space and budget allow, there was no mistaking that the C3's sound more dynamic, and extend lower.  ..Pretty much what one would expect given the larger enclosure, etc..  Prog rock will sound awesome on either.  (as would any other type of music :)

     

    I listened and purchased mine from worldwide stereo near philadelphia.  ..Very nice people.  Both were in stock when I went to audition, but it would be best to make an appt. so they can have both pairs on hand.

     

    their website: https://worldwidestereo.com

     

    here's a pic of my Cornwall III's.

     

     

    DSC_0845.jpg

  20. 1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

    I completely agree.  It's what I discovered when I shopped for a TT four years ago to replace my 15 yr old Ariston Icon..  ..Not to offend, but the belt-drives that I looked at seemed to be little more than a plank of wood, a bearing, an out-sourced motor, a rubber-band and an out-sourced tonearm.  No suspension to speak of.  ..Just a simple device that appeared to take little engineering know how.  ..Compare that to a Technics SL-1200, which seems like a substantial component.

     

    (sorry to reply to my own post, but someone reacted and i don't want to presume their endorsement of my add'l comment)

     

    ..And when you ask the salesperson about this seemingly simple rubber-band approach, they'd say something like "it's better than DD b/c of motor noise."  Hmm.. I hear ZERO motor noise on my DD, yet every $1000 BD I heard struggled to hold a steady pitch when playing a piano or violin note.  ..So, it seems to me to be mostly a matter of engineering, tooling, and manufacture.  ..A DD TT requires tons of it, a BD does not.

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