[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

I had the privilege of using a Belle center, first with a passive (AA) crossover, tri-amped with a DSP crossover, 2-way using a K-510 horn and K-69-A 2" compression driver, then finally adding a Beyma CP25 tweeter to handle the extreme highest octave (crossed at 8 kHz).  Each configuration using the DSP crossover had its own improvement in sound quality:

 

1) The stock Belle with passive AA crossover sounded thin, boomy (peaky response in the 100-200 Hz band), lacking extreme low bass, missing sparkle and cleanness of cymbal transients, and the timbre was veiled and not at all neutral--more like a table radio sound.  Honestly, there was little that I found admirable about the sound that I heard.

 

2) Converting the crossover to a ElectroVoice Dx38--using three of four output channels--I found that the sound suddenly changed to a Jubilee-like neutral timbre.  This was dramatic.  I was able to EQ the high frequency and low frequency ends of the spectrum to even out the response, resulting in a very listenable and dynamic sound.  The timbre was finally neutral and non-fatiguing.  Deep bass was missing, and the apparent source width (ASW) of the sound stage wasn't nearly as wide or tall as the Jubs, but it was able to integrate between the Jubs as a center speaker.  In this configuration, it still required the listening position (LP) to be pretty close to centerline, but at that position it was generally not obvious that there was a Belle between the Jubs, i.e., approximate timbre matching was finally achieved with the Jubs.

 

3) Swapping out the K-500/K-55 midrange horn/driver and K-77 tweeters for a K-510 horn and K-69-A 2" compression driver resting on top of the Belle bass bin increased the ASW and further improved the timbre match.  Now the width of the center image without being able to tell that there was a separate center loudspeaker was 3-4 feet wide.  However, the cymbal transients were a bit harsh and unnatural sounding.  This "JuBelle" configuration would be even better with a better 2" driver that didn't announce the presence of 13.5 kHz diaphragm chattering.  Deep bass is still missing.

 

4) I added a Beyma CP25 "baby cheek" tweeter on top of the K-510/K-69-A horn, and crossed over at 8 kHz.  Now the HF chattering was gone, the timbre match with the Jubs further improved, and the width of the center channel image at the LP was enhanced slightly.  This was an extremely good sounding loudspeaker, but the presentation was not as wide as the Jubilees on each side, thus requiring the listeners to stay pretty much at the LPs in the center of the room.  Deep bass is still missing.

 

5) Then I upgraded to the K-402-MEH.  All the problems with ASW disappeared.  You can walk from side wall to opposite side wall across the width of the room and the sound is a solid image wherever you are in-room--with no localization of sound apparent to any of the loudspeakers.  Speech intelligibility and clarity also improved significantly.  Deep bass meets or exceeds that of the Jubilees on either side.

 

It sounds to me that the problem that you're currently focused on is the bass bin.  You've got a lot more to improve than just the sound of the bass.  If it were me, I'd find or make Belle or La Scala bass bins (since you said that you already have good subs already), then proceed in one of the configurations that I mentioned above to dramatically improve the sound.  I don't recommend passive crossovers unless you physically time align the midrange and tweeter with each other and then that unit with the bass bin. 

 

I really recommend flattening the frequency response of the midbass and treble using a DSP crossover of good quality (i.e., NOT Behringer, low-end dbx Driverack  or miniDSP 2x4, etc.), and a calibrated microphone using REW.  Then you'll have something that you'll enjoy hearing every time you turn it on to play good music.

 

Chris

Interesting thoughts Chris...  I will definitely read through your K-402 thread...  The first few pages were intriguing.

 

I've kind of been thinking the same way about the tuning.  Yes, the bass bin is the first priority because I can just set the horns on top for a while as I figure it out.  But I understand that there's a lot more to tune.  Just playing with the dsp settings on the shop receiver changed the mid and high character so dramatically it told me there might be a lot to be had going active, if not tri, and least Bi-amped... 

But if the K-33e in the belle bass cab isn't ideal, I have the flexibility now to go a different rout.

My Sub isn't probably an ideal match to the Belles but it's probably good enough to get them right before building a more ideal Sub.

[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

1 hour ago, zobsky said:

For what it's worth the bass section of a belle is similar to a lascala in many (though not all) ways - just a different form factor apart from the part of the lascala that has no expansion.

 

OTOH, the mid horn of a belle is shorter than a lascala (in order to fit in the shallower cabinet). If I remember correctly, it had to be crossed over higher than a lascala mid horn . Is this what your issue was when listening to  belles, previously ?

 

In any case, these short horns benefit greatly from mating with a real sub horn, perhaps more than one might assume initially.

 

 I currently have two horn type subs - a BFM table tuba and a "pico -wrecker" tapped horn. I think the picowrecker (or rather a pair of them)  - (deeper response but less efficient) is going to stay in the home theater room and the table tuba (more efficient)  is going to move downstairs with the belles (until I decide to build something else).

 

If you don't have a lot of space, .. consider one of the smaller horn subs - maybe a T18  (18" cube) - that sub is very musical, punchy  and tight sounding if you have a good corner and can live with 40 Hz response. It was my favorite till a friend dropped it when borrowing it and cracked open a seam.

 

 

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue was with the Belles...  Basically they sounded clear and precise but sort of lifeless.   They didn't disappear at all and you could listen to the sound just fine but you weren't immersed in it.

 

That said, my dad put them in these open back enclosures...

 

And at first when I started listening to them, they sounded about like you'd expect...  Pretty bad...  But I had them on a surround receiver and they kind of came alive when I started messing with the EQ settings.  So I think I can see the potential...

The bass in this setup was more than plenty BTW.   It got me thinking about getting them in something appropriate and seeing where I can get with some tuning.

 

I actually could hide a t18 behind a couch pretty easy in this room.

[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

3 hours ago, zobsky said:

For your build, have considered a cornscala type build. Should be fairly easy to do considering what you have.

 

 

I haven't had time off late to complete my build - which strictly can't be called a belle (though teh bass module is identical to one).  I did try my old table tuba  horn sub with the belles - and that fixed what was missing.

 

Considering I tried the ported mod with both eminence kappa 15c and crites cast woofers (and all manners of EQ via my miniDSP), and came away less than totally satisfied (though both were an improvement  over the stock unported), In hindsight, I'd personally not deal with porting again - the benefits of adding a subwoofer are significantly more. I know DJK thinks I'm not using the right woofers for the job so take that as you will . 

 

Something else I mean to try are reducing the rear chamber volume by about 1/3 . The sims show an increase in bass before the response falls off the cliff i.e. reactance annulling.

 

Also, I'd ideally  like to cross over somewhat lower than the 550 Hz I currently use with my faital pro CD . I while ago, I started designing a unity style 2-way that would fit within my top hat (which is a bit taller than a conventional belle) - so hopefully, that should allow me to cross over around 400 Hz or so.

 

One of these days, these plans will come to fruition. Earlier this year some of us got together to invest in a shaper origin handheld CNC so maybe that will speed things up, as I don't have as much free time as I did a few years back.

 

 

Thanks for replying, Zobsky...  I have thought about the Cornscala.  Maybe it seems a little too easy if that makes any sense?

I may default to it in the end. 

Thank you for sharing your porting impressions as well.

I have a nice JBL active sub...  I don't have a lot of room for a big bass horn sub in this room but I could run the JBL, and hide it.

I also have a Nakamichi PA-5 and 2 Pass f-5 amps I can run if needed, so I was thinking about maybe building a stock belle and either bi or tri-amping it to see if messing around with the active crossover helps out more.

I'm still 'bench racing' at this point...   But I'm looking to get something underway around the new year hopefully, so I appreciate the real world impressions.

Still intrigued by the Dean as well.

 

[anyone here worked out a hornresp model for the University Dean?]

2 minutes ago, seti said:

Any speaker benefits from being in a corner.

 

I gotta say B&W bookshelves do not compare to Belles. The only advantage over Belles is that B&W tweeter. There had to be something wrong with the Belles if that is your opinion. I lived with Belles for many years and are one of the speakers I regret selling the most. They have a little better bass than La Scala I's but about even with II's....

 

The Deans would be a cool build. Always thought they were cool but never heard them.

 

Maybe there was something wrong with them, I lived with them for about 10 years and would take a cd from my collection and listen to it on my system... Denon Receiver, B&W Bookshelves, bottom tier Sharp CD player...   Nice imaging and good full sound.

Take it to my dads system...  Way higher SPL...  for sure, slightly more even sounding, but no sound stage to speak of and almost hollow sounding...

That said, today I'm running my Wharfedales on the exact same Nakamichi Stasis system he had for the Belles, and it's transformed those speakers.  Better in every way.  So I don't think it was the system.  Add to that, in the simple backless cabs he built for the Belle Drivers, the sound is really good compared to what I remembered from the belles, and I'm excited about getting them back into proper cabs and living with them a while.

He had them professionally installed, but I wonder if they had something wired wrong or something.

I'm really wavering between recreating the Belle's and going with the Deans...  I think the wife would like the vintage look of the Dean with nice grills, but I think the Belles might have higher resale value if done right and they have a smaller footprint.

Hope that's not too much of a hijack of Karlson's thread.

 

[anyone here worked out a hornresp model for the University Dean?]

Strongly leaning toward building some University cabs for my Belle drivers.

Couple questions about the Dean/Classic:

Does the Dean still perform better in a corner?  If no corners, is the Classic a better choice?

Do they need to be resting directly on the floor for best performance or could I elevate them a bit?

Does the K33e seem like a good match?  Karlson3 shared the graphs, thanks for that, but I was wondering if anyone has done it and has impressions.

 

It sounds like a sub may still be in the mix no matter which of the domesticated 15" horn designs you choose...  Is this true of the Universities and/or the California?

(I'm currently running some Wharfedale w70s without a sub and couldn't imagine needing one, if that adds perspective.)

 

I'm a novice at interpreting the graphs, but that's what I'm getting from what's been posted so far.  Just making sure the real world performance isn't drastically different.

 

So the Classic/Dean beat the LaScala/Belle designs in extension, from what I'm seeing...  Do the PWK designs excel at anything over the University designs?

I remember the Belles as being extremely clear and lively, but with no real punch...  Even compared to my B&W bookshelves. 

 

 

 

[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

Yes, I read through the Zobsky build...  He didn't seem overly impressed with the mod.  But it didn't sound like he was done tweaking either.

 

I have 1 usable corner in this room, so I was hoping the 'Cornerless' part of the Dean was legit.  If not, maybe the Belles are the best overall bet.  In reading through the threads, there seems to be mixed opinions with the Deans...  Especially with the k-33e.

That said...  It's audio...  There's always mixed opinions.

I'm just not hearing a clear consensus.

[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

5 hours ago, avguytx said:

Well, if you asked me, is say build a pair of Belle cabinets like me.

 

 

Which crossovers do you have? I'd say you could build a pair of Cornwall cabinets and call it good. Or, maybe sell the K500 horns and find the K600 horns that go in the Cornwalls, though. All of the other drivers will work in most any of the Heritage except Heresys which need a 12" and different mid horn. 

 

Or just sell the drivers to people that can use them for other speakers. 

Yes, I read through your build thread.  Are you going to do the ported mod?  Do you know if anyone has ported a bell into the top hat with the hat sealed for just increased woofer chamber volume?  I read about that in one of the laScala threads, but I didn't see any results or listening impressions.

Very nice build by the way.

My main concern about recreating the Belles is that I'm afraid my wife might not like the style...   Was trying to brainstorm ways of changing the style a bit without changing the sound.

 

My dad's were oiled Oak with cane grill cloth...  I really liked that look as a kid.  But I like the veneer you're doing also.

 

[Enclosure suggestions-Complete set of Belle Drivers/xover]

First post

New guy from the DiyAudio forums.

I find myself with a full set of drivers (K-77, k-55M, and K-33-e) and crossovers out of a pair of Belles and am looking for enclosure advice.

I asked this question on DIYAudio and they suggested I try here.  So I've spent the last several day searching and reading older posts about the K-33E and what enclosures it's best suited for.  I'm leaning toward University Dean, but in reading those threads, reviews seem mixed.  There's a lot to say for the original Belle enclosure from a WAF standpoint with the exception of the height of the top-hats... But I grew up with Belles and the sound never really impressed me.  I have a nice JBL studio sub I can throw into the system now though.  I'm not as Bass needy as I used to be either.  I listen at low volumes most of the time anyway.

As a reference, my dad built some simple open back cabs for the drivers and I spent a day listening to them in those cabs and ended up removing the sub because I didn't feel I needed it.

So I apologize in advance if this is has been done before, but I wasn't sure how the site felt about bumping old threads and I was getting a little lost with all the information in the various threads.  So what would you build if you found yourself with Belle drivers and no Belle Cabs?

Thanks,

Phil