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MMurg

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Everything posted by MMurg

  1. MMurg

    Jubilee

    I've heard both versions of the Jubilee side by side. The improvement of the Heritage Jubilee over the Underground Jubilee is not subtle. If you have the means, the improvement is worth it in my opinion. Which is why there is a pair of Heritage Jubilee in my living room.
  2. The last picture in the set of pictures posted above by @OilyBoy in this thread shows the lowered horns.
  3. Lowering the horns down as some people have done with the Underground Jubilee is probably not practical on the Heritage Jubilee without making something the support the weight of the veneered MDF frame around the horn. However, much of that benefit can be had by simply tilting the horn down until the listening position is vertically on-axis with the K-402 horn. I describe what I did with mine here.
  4. I concur with @mikebse2a3 on this. Many recordings are less than ideal and have flaws like deficient bass or over-emphasized treble for various reasons, for example when recordings were mastered to sound "good" over FM radio back in the heyday of FM. At the recommendation of someone in the Forum I decided to get a Schiit Lokius six-band tone control (https://www.schiit.com/products/lokius) to see how it would work for correcting bad recordings. I have to say it is one of the best audio purchases I've made in a long time. It was able to make many of the recordings with music/performances that I really liked but never listened to because of the recording quality actually enjoyable. I've since purchased two more Lokius units and one of the remote-controlled Loki Max units, one for each of my major systems.
  5. Yes, lacquer finishes were available back when Klipsch still had oiled finish options.
  6. Even after doing a significant bass cut to correct for room gain, the -3 dB point for my Jubilee at the listening position is 16 Hz. So, I really don't need any of these subs for additional bass extension or output. However, if I had the room, I might be tempted to add one of these at an anti-node (say mid-wall rear) to make the bass more even in the whole room. I did this in my basement Palladium theater system (originally only had two subs up front then added a third mid-wall rear), and it really smoothed out the bass throughout the room.
  7. Yes, the Jubilee requires biamping since the crossover is active (a DSP) and operates at line level before amplification. So, each speaker requires two channels of amplification. Since I'm using identical amps, I am vertically biamping, i.e., one stereo amplifier per speaker. If you wanted to use a different type of amp for the HF (say a tube amp) and the LF (say a solid state amp), then you would horizontally biamp.
  8. I don't know. I can ask @Chief bonehead next week when I'm at SubFest. My guess would be that it's digital since this is a DSP were talking about. 🙂
  9. They are definitely needed for using different amps for HF and LF as many power amps do not have gain controls. All the power amps I own, including the ones I'm using with the Jubilee, do not have any gain control. I personally don't need them because I'm using identical amps for HF and LF, but not everyone will. Unfortunately, the Jubilee manual does not mention this either.
  10. This would not necessarily be incorrect if they were using different amplifiers with different gains on the HF and LF. However, that doesn't seem to be how they were using these knobs.
  11. 13 ft x 17 ft x 8 ft The knobs on the DSP are NOT tone controls. They are gain controls to match the gain when different amplifiers are used for HF and LF. Since these speakers require biamping, gain controls are provided in case one wanted to use two different amplifiers, for example, a tube amp for the HF and a solid-state amp for the LF.
  12. After looking at the Jubilee setup in the picture and your comments about them fiddling with the DSP bass/treble gain controls, I'm fairly confident in saying that you probably did not hear Jubilee as they should sound. Unfortunately, I think some of the blame rests with Klipsch for not providing adequate detailed guidance for properly setting the Jubilee up. The manual is definitely inadequate for the task. After having them in my relatively small living room for a year and a half now, I have some of my own "lessons learned" that I'm hoping will make it into a future version of the manual or at least a Klipsch blog post linked to the product page. The first is to have speakers positioned such that main listening position is as close to on-axis of the K-402 horn as is practical, both horizontally (i.e., via proper toe in) and vertically (i.e., tilt the horn down as necessary). The manual gets the toe in part mostly correct but does not mention anything about possibly tilting the horn down when needed. Next is getting the in-room bass response correct. This is where Klipsch really needs to provide guidance as what I'm about to say I only know because of my own experience or from information that came directly from @Chief bonehead. Unlike the Klipschorn or the Underground Jubilee, the new Jubilee does not need to be near a corner for full bass response. Roy has said on this forum that the Heritage Jubilee is designed to curve flat in half-space (on the floor away from the room walls). This is not mentioned in the manual. So, once the new Jubilee are placed near walls or corners (as they will likely be in most normal-sized rooms), there will be room gain that will cause a departure from flat response. They can start to sound boomy. In my room most of this gain was in the very low end (20 - 30 Hz range), so it wasn't apparent when listening to a lot of pop/rock material. However, once I put on material that had significant content in that range (e.g., certain orchestral music), things became unlistenable. This cannot be corrected with the gain knobs on the DSP as that's not what they are for. Some other form of bass room correction is needed to fix this. Unfortunately, the Jubilee DSP cannot be used for this as the end user cannot modify the settings. I feel that this is a mistake on Klipsch's part. They should open up the DSP for those who know what they are doing. This forces the user to use an additional level of processing for bass correction, either automatic room correction systems like Audyssey, Dirac, etc. or manually with another DSP or parametric EQ. Luckily, my processor has a multichannel parametric EQ built-in that is compatible with REW. So, at least I didn't need any other external gear to do this correction manually in my room. I have a feeling that the people running the demo at that show weren't aware of any of this. Therefore, they were constantly fiddling with the bass in the hope of getting it right and failing.
  13. FedEx delivered my Halloween treat yesterday. I took advantage of a @Paducah Home Theater blowout deal on some KI-102-SMA-II to use as six Atmos speakers in my Jubilee 5.0 system. Unfortunately, I've hit a bit of a snag. The only painted ones in the blowout stock were the black ones with the 70V transformer for use in distributed audio systems. However, it turns out that this model speaker does not have dual speaker wire connections to be able to simply not use the transformer. So, I'm going to have to do some minor surgery on these to disconnect the transformer and connect the crossover directly to the input cup. I'm hoping it will be fairly easy as the solder connections on the input cup are big enough for even my terrible globby soldering. 😁 If I can't do it properly, the boys in Paducah offered to have me send the speakers to them for modification. The other option is to find a 70V amp with at least six discrete channels. However, that's looking like a more expensive and complicated option than the conventional multichannel amp I was considering. One other thing I need for this system change to the system is to replace my 7.1 processor with an Atmos/DTS-X one. Since the funds need to build back up for that, this Atmos upgrade to the system may take a few months to complete. One interesting thing I noticed about these speakers is that the tweeter phase plug looks like a scaled down version of the custom wide dispersion phase plug on the Heritage Jubilee.
  14. I managed to snag the last one for $75 + shipping. I wanted two but I saw this post too late. 🙁
  15. I'd say that whether it's worth to you to put up rear Atmos speakers depends on if you've been satisfied with the experience you've had with your from Atmos speakers. If you have, then it's likely worth it as you will get more precise overhead effects localization and more fully immersive ambience sound from Atmos/DTS:X content. As to whether kg1 and RS-3 II are appropriate speakers to use with a Belle/Forte ground layer, this will depend on several things. Firstly, wide dispersion surround speakers are not recommended for Atmos/DTS:X. All the major immersive surround formats (Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D) specify monopole (i.e., direct firing) speakers for all channels. Secondly, whether small speakers like kg1 (which are almost about as far away in capability from Belle speakers as you can get in vintage Klipsch) will work for you is going to depend on whether your receiver/processor has enough usable gain to overcome the sensitivity mismatch and whether you are sensitive to sonic mismatches between the ground layer and the height layer. Most people think that sonic (timbe) mismatches are just related to frequency response. While that's true, what's even more important is distortion mismatches, both in quantity and quality (types and profile over the frequency range) of the distortion. While frequency response mismatches can be somewhat mitigated by room correction systems like Audyssey, distortion mismatches cannot be fixed. I'll explain what I mean by this. My experience with this is very much like what @Coytee described. My main theater system in my basement consists of seven Palladium speakers in the ground layer (P-39F mains, P-27C center, P-27S side surrounds and P-37F rear surrounds). When I first decided to upgrade the theater to Atmos, I hung four Klipsch AW-650 outdoor speakers from the ceiling. I figured that these would be superior to most in-ceiling speakers for Atmos. They do work quite well as Atmos speakers. However, over time the mismatch in sound character between the ground layer and the height layer started really bothering me. I realized what was bothering me was the lack of midrange clarity from the AW-650. The AW-650 crossover from the horn to the direct radiator woof at 3400 Hz. The 3-way Palladium speakers do this in the 500 - 600 Hz range. That means way more of the midrange is reproduced by much lower distortion horns on the Palladium speakers and therefore have a much cleaner midrange. (I suspect this is something of what @Coytee experienced with the Academy (crossover at 2200 Hz). I owned an Academy for a short time as a center for original Forte. I wasn't satisfied with it for the same reason I mentioned with the AW-650. I ended up replacing it with a single Heresy II (crossover at 850 Hz).) So, I switched to front and rear heights using Palladium P-17B bookshelf speakers on high shelf units. Yes, overhead localization of effects was slightly less precise, but the coherence of the entire immersive sound field was much better due to timbre matching of all channels. Also, overhead effects occur much less often than other immersive sound in most movie soundtracks. So, I prefer the timbre matched heights much more than having precise overhead effects. If I ever add Atmos to my living room Jubilee mains/ Belle center/La Scala surrounds 5.0 system, I will likely purchase Klipsch cinema surround speakers like the KPT-1260H or the KPT-250. These hopefully should be able to reasonably "keep up" with the ground layer. Using these would be much easier than attempting to hang Heresy speakers from the walls or ceiling. Here's a picture from when I was first testing the Palladium height speakers but hadn't yet taken down the AW-650.
  16. I'm using the Jubilee DSP and also doing two PEQ bass cuts in the EQ in my processor to correct for room gain. I'm basically using the parametric EQ in my processor and REW to manually do bass room correction. It would be nice if you could do this right in the Jubilee DSP, but you can't. 🙁
  17. The Reavon players are supposed to be the successors to the Oppo "universal" players. https://reavon.com/
  18. That's not exactly true. Roy showed two of the prototypes publicly at the Audio Advice Live show back in August. You can see them in this YouTube video.
  19. What is shown in the picture is just the "bass bin", i.e., the low frequency section. There is supposed to be a high frequency section (sometimes referred to as the "top hat") with a midrange and tweeter horn.
  20. Have those drivers been confirmed to have that same T-S parameters as the stock woofers?
  21. I figured that since there is a way to convert Q to bandwidth and vice versa for PEQ filters, that there might be a similar conversion for slope to Q and vice versa for shelf filters (and then to/from bandwidth using the previous formulas for a Xilica DSP). I think I may have found it, but I have one point of uncertainty. I also don't have an EV DSP with which to confirm this. I found a formula to convert the "slope factor" to Q and vice versa here: https://ez.analog.com/dsp/sigmadsp/f/q-a/64769/how-to-design-shelf-and-butterworth-hp-or-lp-6db-oct-12db-oct-filter. Unfortunately, the "slope factor" is not the same thing as the "slope" that EV is using. My best guess is that the "slope factor" is kind of equivalent to the "order" of the slope of the transition region (i.e. a slope factor of 1 would be 6 dB/octave). So, if you took the EV slope values and divided by 6, then you should have the slope factor. With that, you should then be able to use the following Excel formulas for a conversion spreadsheet. The dB gain is also required in these formulas. Of course, you would then need to convert the Q value to bandwidth using the previously posted formula to plug the value into a Xilica DSP. To Convert Slope Factor and dB Gain to Q for a Shelf Filter in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Slope Factor value and replace B1 with the cell location containing the dB Gain value) =1/(SQRT((10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40))*(1/A1-1)+2)) To Convert Q and dB Gain to Slope Factor for a Shelf Filter in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Q value and replace B1 with the cell location containing the dB Gain value) =(10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40))/((1/A1^2)-2+10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40)) If anyone knows if my assumption about the EV slope to slope factor relationship is correct or not, or if you have both an EV and a Xilica DSP and can check this, please let me know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit: I was doing more looking around some more and I found an interesting tidbit here: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2428. It talks about the parameters that can be used to define shelf filters in a certain program. I've pasted it here and highlighted what I found interesting. lowshelf f0[k] width[q|s|d|o|h|k] gain Double-pole lowshelf filter. highshelf f0[k] width[q|s|d|o|h|k] gain Double-pole highshelf filter. Reference: q Q-factor (default). s Slope (shelving filters only). d Slope in dB/octave (shelving filters only). Also changes the definition of f0 from center frequency to corner frequency (like Room EQ Wizard and the Behringer DCX2496). o Bandwidth in octaves. h Bandwidth in Hz. k Bandwidth in kHz. The text in red show that the slope can be defined as s (slope factor) or d (slope in dB per octave). Using one or the other effects how the filter frequency is defined (center or corner). So, the conversion I proposed above when coming from an EV setting using dB/Octave is likely not that simple. While I think the conversion from slope factor to Q and vice versa is likely correct, it is likely not useful to go from EV slope settings to Xilica settings for shelf filters without more information. 😞
  22. @Travis In Austin - Any update on when registration for this will be available? I'd like to make sure I'm registered before I start booking travel that may be non-refundable. 🙂
  23. I've been following the "re-animation" of this thread and I think I can help with some of this. I had saved some of the documents with DSP settings for the Underground Jubilee and the JubScala with K402/K-691 driver from this forum. I also have a settings document for the UG Jubilee with the TAD 4002. I'm not sure how current they are since I stupidly didn't document from which forum threads I had saved them. All of these have the PEQ settings defined in terms of Q instead of bandwidth. I will provide help with converting these Q values to Xilica Bandwidth numbers below. Finally, I took the Xilica XDAT file posted earlier (Cory_master jubilee-both channels.xdat), imported it into XConsole, and took screenshots of all the settings so that there is a "human-readable" document of them. The settings in the XDAT match up quite closely (but not exactly in some cases) with the PDF document with the exception of the 32 Hz bass boost which has a larger Q in the XDAT. All of these are attached. With respect to converting Q values to Bandwidth values, there are a number of calculators on the internet such as this one: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-bandwidth.htm. However, to make it even easier than plugging one number at a time into a web calculator, I used the calculation methods from this page (https://www.astralsound.com/parametric-eq.htm) to create Microsoft Excel formulas. That way you can do the conversions in bulk in a spreadsheet. To Convert Q to Bandwidth in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Q value) =(LOG((2*(A1^2)+1)/(2*(A1^2))+SQRT(((((2*(A1^2)+1)/(A1^2))^2)/4)-1)))/LOG(2) To Convert Bandwidth to Q in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Bandwidth value) =(SQRT(2^A1))/((2^A1) - 1) KPT-KHJ-KF AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf LS AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf Klipsch Jubilee-TAD 4002 - EV Dx38 Settings 2 Oct 2014 (1).pdf Cory_master jubilee-Xconsole_screenshots.pdf
  24. Yes! Glad I suggested it to @Chief bonehead. Save me a spot. 🙂
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