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rickmcinnis

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  1. In case it is of interest - have one horn really close. Use of JB WELD to make ears/saddles to insure sealing of port to baffle. The surface is flatter than it looks. Hope to have one actually working over the weekend. And then to the other one. Learned so much with this one I feel sure the second one will go much quicker.
  2. Still working on frustums. Knew I would need to add material to the horn to allow a better seal between baffle board and horn. Two of the ports are as close as they can be to the wall of the horn and this requires a fair amount of material. A fair amount of material requires numerous applications which means extra time. Hoping I have learned something that will allow speaker number two to move along much quicker. Was buying the two ounces tubes at HOME DEPOT and see AMAZON has 10 ounces tubes at a substantial savings. AS quick as I will use it it is a good thing. I have found if you do not use JB WELD quickly it gets funny, Knew this would be tricky - not hard - but time consuming and it is easy to obsess over getting them as close to perfect as possible, Picture is a rough version of the baffle facing the driver. Grey is JB WELD patching. The inside side of the frustums are sharp at the horn entry. These are not finished. What I would call "roughed in".
  3. There is not one within the XILICA - just using the PEQs. My amplifier is probably presenting a 85 hz high pass filter - using the output coupling caps to act as a high pass filter - using 140 uf assuming an 8 ohms impedance. I have yet to measure the impedance vs. frequency of the CELESTIONs so the 8 is the figure supplied by CELESTION.
  4. Forgot to mention that when making the holes 3M Blue Painters tape is a great way to see where to drill. I would like to post my REW files and those are too big to post here. I am hoping there might be a way to shrink those but I doubt it. I have attached pictures of the CELESTION measurements for comparison. Yellow trace is EQ (duh) red trace is no EQ at minum 10 dB green is no EQ at the same level as EQ. The distortion is purely for comparison - I have no idea how much trust to put in those measurements. All are psycho-acoustic smoothing with 2 dB per step . Overlays are stuck with 5 dB per step Phase for no EQ at full level is the closest to 0 degrees. All of the others lag. I am using plenty of PEQs! I hear NO ill effects of using these drivers this low. Every night I listen to them expecting to hear THE BIG FLAW and it has not appeared yet. I love these drivers. Just for fun.
  5. A report on the cutting of the ports on the first horn. First thing - is the first time you do anything don't be surprised if you mess it up. I sure did with my first hole. I was so excited to see if I could do it I made the hole 1/2 inch away from where it was supposed to be. What an idiot. Now I am having to fill in the area with layers of JB WELD. Not hard to fix just time consuming. Second set was a little better but still requires so JB WELD. I am using a Forstner bit. I found with this hole that trying to go all fo the way through is NOT a good idea. Too much heat and the material that was removed is very hot and sticky and will stick back to the horn. Good thing for grinders! The third hole - I was getting much better by this point and by the fourth I had got it. Now to hope I remember what I learned when i do the second horn. So what I learned - a Forstner bit can do a great job - I got the DIABLO brand at Home Depot. Significant heat will be generated. Stop drilling at intervals to let the heat subside and to move the scrap out of the way. Wish I could remember the word for that stuff! If you do remove the bit from the piece, and this is NOT a bad idea be extremely sure you have replaced it into the hole correctly. This is what I did not do well on my second hole. It is easier to get it wrong than you might think. I found a jig saw blade using a set of VISE GRIPS as a handle makes a much betterr tool to cut away the triangle that one of those hack saw blade holders. The hack saw blade is much too limp. The good thing is that you cannot ruin the horn unless you do something completely consciously destructive so no need to fear cutting into them. Not to say I did not fear cutting into them all of the months I have owned them. Nothing like DOING IT to get over unfounded fears. I made my holes with a two inches bit with the distance between enough to give the needed area. My ports are at the opposing wall. I am confident with the JB WELD I can add material to the horn, this along with good old MORTITE will result in a good deal. After making your first hole - I made my first hole INSIDE the horn - but after seeing what happens on the outside wall I made a new guide to allow making the rest of the holes from the outside which is vastly easier to do. There is no way to make the hole closest to the throat without an angled head drill. I just made my first hole closest to the mouth and used that as a guide. So getting closer to hearing them - would almost be there if I had not been such a dumbass! I have a removable back for my cabinets. The back will rest against a 3;.4 inches flange made with 2 x 4's. I read over the weekend that Frank van Alstine, always a source of good sense and good ideas recommended modelling clay that never dries for such a duty. Have some of that on order. I think it will work as well as MORTITE but not be as difficult to separate the panels as I hope it is NOWHERE near as sticky as MORTITE. I will know in a few days. I will be using the recycled rubber floor matting on the outside side panels of the boxes. I will use this same material on the inside of the back and thought I would try the GREEN GLUE along with a minimal number of screws to attach it. Chris A there is no question the K402s sound great with your head inside them - it is amazing that this is so. i used to be one who sat as far from my speakers as i could and now I realize that was telling me everything I needed to know about my loudspeakers. I figure with the MEHs as close as you can will be the best and be able to maintain as much of that phase linearity as possible at the listening chair. Better get back to work ...
  6. Chris A, I am only using 18 inches woofers that are in the EDGAR SEISMICS as a temporary setup while finishing my CHRIS A K402 MEH. I am using two of the same CRITES woofers you specified for each channel. As soon as these things are finished the SEISMICS will be put in the garage for someone to take away and if not one wantes to take them away they will be sewn into pieces and thrown away. I removed those gaskets and tested it against my baffle and the woofers would have to move a long way to contact the baffle. With corrugated paper I would think if allowed to move further than that they would be seriously distorting. I know I will have to take the things apart at least once to correct for incorrect assumptions. Hope this is not one of them though it would be an easy one to fix. NBPK402 - I doubt your woofers have this double gasket since CRITES says this is something they do differently for use in some replacement situation. Chris A - I must admit to being a devotee of Colin Chapman and racing car designers who do not pick and choose where you lighten a part - you lighten every part as much as you can - which is how I look at this project. Not that I disagree with you that one can tilt at windmills but always looking for the cumulative effect. So every piece is given scrutiny and one tries to make it as good as they can. Of course, you have real experience with this but I must admit I had assumed you had removed some of that gasket if not all of it. From the beginning I have been concerned about the higher frequency response of the woofers so all of that folklore kept running through my head. Your raw graph is all the more surprising if those measurements were made with those double gaskets used. This weekend I will make holes in the side of my left channel K402s. Thanks Chris A for the caution about those long SINGLE PORT holes. That does change everything. I suspect my ports will look as close to yours as i can make them. I had the best intentions of showing you the raw response of those CELESTION CDs today. I have been listening to them with the response leveled off to make the top octave flat. The amount of attenuation required should give one a tremendous amount of dynamic range from 600 to 4000 hz. One last conceptual question - Do you think there is any value in giving the drivers a 6 dB per octave slope? Not too hard to get one octave below 350 hx with a slow slope and I guess if you used 500 hz as the nominal crossover point you could get a 6 dB per octave slope for almost two octaves. Here i am speaking about measurements i made one meter away from the face of the horn. What is interesting and I know you do not have much interest in my measuring at the chair but I find it interesting. One thing is the slope becomes much more steep - almost an acoustic fifth order Butterworth slope while maintaining the same crossover frequency but with a hump at the crossover frequency before falling off - so almost getting a Chebychev . looking slope. Knowing as little as I do about this kind of thing I find that very interesting. Also when both speakers are playing together the slopes become sharper still - again, at the chair, and my chair is about 2.5 meters away from the front of the horns.
  7. Chris A, Meant to have given my condolences for your hard drive failure. That is a great loss to you and all of us here. Hope there is a forensic guy who can get most of it back for you. It would be great if KLIPSCH would offer the MEH but then I could not afford it and I would probably have plenty of quibbles with how they handled certain aspects. All of the thinking (?) that goes into these projects is good for us in many ways. Had to mow the yard yesterday evening. Tonight I am going to see how low a crossover I can get with an acoustic first order slope. More of an academic exercise than anything. I know one thing to do that will require a very surprisingly high frequency first order setting within the XILICA for my current settings within the temporary setup.. Already I am using 1100 hertz to keep from having massive reductions in level in the 700 to 2500 Hz range. One's instinct is that a first order acoustic slope would be best but I do not doubt once everything is connected together that will not be the case. Only reason my curiosity is aroused is whether there could be a good reason to bring the ports a littel closer to the mouth. The way I see it - getting the ports closer to the throat is good for the woofer's high frequency extension but that getting the ports further away from throat allows less interference between woofers and CD. I know I am NOT going to get it right but luckily this is a forgiving arrangement - but might as well try to get it as close to DANLEY right as possible. Without PEQ we would be out of luck! Will post results tomorrow. Will punch holes in one horn this weekend. Have one set of cabinets almost finished. Need to get them installed to have room to perform the finishing on the second set. Sine my ports will be much closer to the suspension than in your situation I am thinking longer narrower ports than yours are called for. I wonder if the longer port aloows for more fudging since they will then be in a wider range of the frequencies of where the horn is working.? Uh, oh, there I go again! One last thing I have assumed you removed the extra thick gasket from the CRITES woofer. I have removed them completely to use Mortite. I love MORTITE. Get a little less volume - actually surprisingly less. Thanks and take care,
  8. Chris A, My horns have more pieces due to my configuration. In addition I want to dampen and strengthen the horn so that means four panels for the top and bottoms. Of course, it is not anywhere near as complicated as a corner horn - but then I would never attempt to build one of those. I, too, have found no difference between using the first order slopes and not using them at all. I appreciate your confirmation. I just go with, in my temporary situation, with what works best. I hope that I am only two weeks away from discarding the SEISMICs and having the K-402s working. My comments about my using the SEISMIC are just for fun since it is most assuredly not a serious project. Just to get me by - but it has been surprising how decent it is. I have to have something to listen to so it was a relief that this was listenable. Taking the CELESTIONs down to about 300 Hz with a first order and two PEQs allows 1.5% THD at 400 Hz where it is at its worst. I will certainly try it with higher crossover points once assembled. When i say the "load" off of the CRITES - I mean their need to go as high as yours are going - which is quite impressive. The question is which driver sounds better in the octave below and above 500 Hz.. All the while I would not want to cut holes based upon a supposition which is why I posed the question to you to give me your thoughts. I know you do not KNOW my situation but you certainly know what you are doing and you have done this so we are dependent on you and your knowledge gained from experience which is the best knowledge of all. I know you are correct that I am making this to be far more complicated than it should but then I have two horns to cut into and I think this is what makes me overly cautious. I know it would not be that hard to fix an error but I think I hate the thought of having to take the things apart. And times two. When i get everything ready for assembly I will just cut holes in the horn. In the interim, in preparation, one wonders about all sorts of things. If anyone wants a pair of SIESMICs they are free for the taking!
  9. Second note to Chris A, In my unhumble opinion you have never (or I missed it which is likely) explicitly showed your ports. You have described them and I would agree there is enough there to get the idea, but a more explicit drawing from you would make many of my question even more unnecessary! The pictures were not as illustrative as one might wish for. Don't get me wrong I am not complaining and KNOW you have supplied a great amount of information about this. But for those of us without your engineering abilities we are not able to go from conceptualize to realize as easily as you can. I look at DANLEY's ports which are long and slender - I figure the length gives one some wiggle room for the crossover. That is why I am thinking of longer and narrower. Since the CELESTION can go lower I wondered if one could take some of the load off of the woofers in the area where they are least effective. Needless to say both drivers are at their least effective parts of their respective ranges. Compromise is required and trying to find which direction is the best compromise. I would never ask you to disassemble your speaker but it would have been instructive to see how you handled the ports on the woofer side. I have assumed you went for a 45 degrees conical shape which is what I am planning to do. Take care,
  10. Chris A, I know it is impossible for you to keep up with what everyone here is doing but I have been using the XILICA boxes for almost two years. I use an XP2040 for each channel. The SIT 1s are for the compression drivers and a First Watt J2 turned into mono blocks with a choke input power supply drive the woofers. The RYHTMIKs have their own amplifiers. With a capacitance coupled amplifier you have no choice but to use a cap on the output unless you have a driver that can handle DC. What I have found is that setting this capacitance for what the desired crossover point would require does not work as well as having lots more capacitance and using a PEQs to make the HP. You get the crossover point you want but the distortion as measured by REW is MUCH higher - five times higher. The SIT1 comes with over 1000 uF of electrolytic capacitance with a 5 uF bypass. I have removed those and place caps at the speaker. Much easier to adjust that way. I have found that approx 130 uF works the best so far though I will slowly take away capacitance until the distortion goes up. With the minimum amount of capacitance distortion as measured by REW goes up substantially. This could be caused by numerous things. I am not using any electrolytic capacitors at the moment. Though some say there can be a good effect from using them even though this is considered apostasy by others. One has to find out for themselves. Still would like to know if you are using the first order slopes within the XILICA or only PEQs. So if I take my response curve and then look at the REW EQ window and set the crossover to match my curve it says I have a fifth order Butterworth at 300 Hz. I am not using the XILICA first order crossover - just two PEQs. If I set the crossover higher (obviously) I could get a less extreme acoustic slope order and that is something I will try before I assemble the MEH. Still have plenty of shellacking of the cabinets left to do. I like sealing all surfaces of the cabinet and this takes time. There are lots of pieces! Since my temporary setup with the Edgar Seismics as lower midranges/mid bass are much happier with the 300 hz crossover it was good that the CELESTIONs allowed this. Getting those 18 inches JBLs to go higher up in frequency requires lots of boost. There is no question this is the best this temporary setup has ever sounded and I suspect COULD ever sound. Having no experience with the CRITES woofers I have no idea how easily they reach 500 Hz. I know you posted a raw response curve but i cannot find it. Would you mind posting it again along with your current XILICA settings for the CRITES? I would be very grateful, AGAIN! Take care,
  11. Thanks for your comments, Chris A. I am not yet in MEH NIRVANA so my experience is purely with two separate horns. With both the CELESTION and the JBL by themselves there would be a distortion peak somewhere in that range - even with the mic one meter from the horn. Not a BIG peak but enough to stand out. I thought it could be my amplifiers or something inherent to the horn. I am using the First Watt SIT1 to drive the compression drivers and these have an output impedance of 4 ohms. I wondered if that was the cause. These amplifiers are capacitance coupled, one stage amplifiers so i have used the output capacitance as part of the high pass filter. BUT I have found trying to use that as THE high pass filter does not work as well as instinct would suggest. It is much better to use much more capacitance than the filter would call for. There is much less distortion. I know there is a best value but I have yet to find it. At the moment I am using about 140 uF. (edit: AND PEQs) When I would use 30 uF there was a surprising amount of distortion. So much for my instincts. Now that I have discovered these things will go much lower than the JBLs i am wondering if I should not re-think my port locations? I will take measurements this evening of the CELESTIONs by themselves and I would appreciate your opinion. The trade off is do I allow for a smoother roll off for the CELESTIONs or for the woofers? I do like the idea of getting the woofers out of the way quicker. I rarely listen about 95 dB and when i do i am obviously not going for the highest quality! I am convinced the CELESTIONs are not stressed with the lower cut off. Thanks for bringing up crossovers in general. So are you not using first order filters? I have no been able to tell if you have or haven't. I know you posted some screenshots of your XILICA settings; I cannot find them again - of course if I spent enough time I would. I have tried it both ways in my rudimentary setup and do see not hear much difference. Though my heart and mind like the idea of using the PEQs only. I tried my idea of using the recycled rubber gym flooring as an outside covering of the boxes and it will work very well. Damps the wall and does not raise the Q. I like the way the stuff looks and I have plenty of it laying about so I am glad to put it to use. Figure i will use the GREEN GLUE to hold it in place though I suspect i will need the help of some screws at the top. But the big quandary is whether to move the slots closer to the mouth since I do not need as much extension from the woofers. I was planning on using a one inch width slot with a half circle on each end - 7 inches of length - whatever is needed to make 43 square centimeters. Maybe slide them down about 1.5 inches from your position. Just curious what your first thoughts are on that, please. AS always, thanks for this project!
  12. Fears are unfounded. Having both drivers installed has proved they do sound very good. What is interesting is how quickly they reveal polarity. Wrong polarity comes across with a grey sound and when you switch it there is immediate color and dynamics. My amplifiers are capacitor coupled so I use the output cap as part of the crossover. I have a surprising second order distortion peak (based on REW and I am not sure how much to trust those distortion measurements) in the mid 400 hz range. I wonder if I have too little capacitance and the distortion is due to the level being boosted there? I do have a dip in the region which is being corrected. I am hoping with more capacitance I will need to remove some output. Will find out this evening. The JBL Truextents have a sweeter sound in the top one and a half octaves - not sure if that is real sound or euphemistic sound. The CELESTIONS, at this point, strike me as that rarest of things in the 21st century - an honest reporter. Only time will tell. At this point I am starting to wonder if this is the 21st century's first "classic" driver? I do not think one can go wrong using these. Now to get the MEH cabinets DONE!
  13. There is nothing wrong with the obvious other than there is not enough of it! Take care,
  14. Well, listened to one of them yesterday. Did not want to open both boxes if I did not like what I heard with the one. First impressions are very good. If anything these are less resonant than the Truextent/2441s - less stridency on massed strings not as if the JBL were strident in any way, nowhere close, of course. But after hearing the titanium diaphragm in the KLIPSCH supplied driver I was concerned. CELESTION has tamed titanium. With less EQ than was required before I get response to 22K - within a dB or so - I do not really want them flat up there. I could have a rise if I wanted it. Less EQ is required in general though the hump in the 1000 hz region is more pronounced but easier to quell. Nice shape. One would think these drivers and the K-402 are very compatible. One wonders if this is the driver Mr. Delgado will choose for his update of the JUBILEE? He could not go wrong. They really do go down to 300, in fact real close to 200 - one could EQ them flat from 200 to 22k - but one worries if that would put stress on the driver and is not needed. I like the idea of having a smooth slope instead of a cliff which is what the cutoff would be at 200 hz. So I listened to one channel with the CELESTION and the other with the JBL, I did not find the CLESTION channel calling attention to itself - always a good sign. Listening to Sandy Denny on FAIRPORT CONVENTION's LIEGE AND LEIF her voice had more immediacy and dynamics from the CELESTION and a purity that I believe is due to the fact that I can get the woofer out of the way so much quicker with the CELESTION. I like the idea of the FASTON connectors instead of those stupid spring loaded things. There is a neoprene foam on the face which makes an excellent gasket. They are made in the United Kingdom and not in China - a very pleasant surprise. In my most unhumble opinion they are worth every penny of what is charged. AND I have a screen right at the face of the driver so i will not be as confused about where to put the ports in the horn. Now I wonder if I should place them further back from the CD or leave them just where Chris A placed his? Tomorrow a report on stereo. Hope my enthusiasm has not been overstated in haste. And to find a buyer for the JBLs ...
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