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Ziggurat

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Posts posted by Ziggurat

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Islander said:

    Wow.  It looks like the last part of my previous post disappeared.  Are your Jubilees the 2-way model?  You mentioned 1133 drivers.  Those are not mid/tweeter drivers, they’re midrange drivers, which would explain a case of rolled-off highs.  For 2-way Jubilees, the correct mid/tweeter drivers is the K-691.  The 1133 is only used with 3-way Jubilees.

     

    There’s a happy Jubilee owner in England.  He wasn’t totally happy at first, but by good luck, he had a visit from another Jubilee owner.  I think it was Coytee.  In the course of the visit, and checking out the cool speakers, Coytee noticed the discrepancy, and the mystery was solved.  When Klipsch was informed of the mistake in assembling the package for shipping, they sent a pair of K-69-A drivers, which were being used at that time in the 2-way Jubilees.  He was much happier when he fitted the new drivers.  The current driver is the K-691.  I’ve used the K-69-A drivers in my JubScalas since 2008, and when I switched to the K-691s in early 2019, they sounded clearly better.  So that’s what I know about that.

     

    Yes thanks for this - I had covered that ground early on and spoke to Roy about the factory-supplied drivers.  As it was, a friend sent me Faital HF200's which I swapped out for the Klipsch units before I did anything about it.  The Faitals defo have the better top end, however I have had some balancing issues between the two drivers, so are temporarily off the horns.  I am really just experimenting at this point - having some fun.  And fun it is 🙂

     

    Thanks Islander

     

    Zig

    • Like 1

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Islander said:

    If you like the 3-way arrangement, why not get proper K-510 horns for the tweeters?

    Only because of the cost of getting them to New Zealand, and because the BMS drivers have been reported by ChrisA to be very good, with the HF being delivered from the same point as the mids - ie no need for an additional horn flare.  

     

    • Like 1

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    It's been an interesting week for the Jubes.   First they got a taste of Canadian Muscle, which they clearly enjoyed.  Next I had some issues with my aftermarket compression drivers, so I put the Klipsch originals back on and found them lacking severely from 16khz upwards, the Xilica ran out of adjustment for this. So Just for giggles, I hooked up a couple of cheap rubbish TOA horn tweeters, running parallel straight the back of the 1133's - no crossover or anything, no science here folks.. Anyway - it sounded good!  I mean, not phenomenal, but good enough to know that I want to tri-amp the system and either run a separate tweeter as we see here, or utilize the BMS co-ax driver @Chris A has been playing with (the more likely route).

     

    I also built a frame for the 402's to make trying different alignments easier.. These will be a temporary solution, so again, not very scientific. But I kinda like how they look! 

    Joob.jpg

    • Like 2

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    5 hours ago, HPower said:

    Ziggurat,

     

    My compliments on your choice of the W4S STP, I am using the same preamp.

    It is very quite!!!

     

     

    The Wyred was a chance purchase - I knew very little about it when I bought it. It has since proved itself against more expensive pre-amps in my system.

     

    It is not without its foibles though. The remote is junk, firstly. More annoyingly is the pop! pop! pop! between attenuator steps, especially loud between 13-14 Volume. Between 0-14 the channel outputs are not balanced either. I ran my Xilica gain levels low so I stay out of this range with the Wyred.

     

    Ii may ultimately send it across the ocean back to Wyred for upgrade, and get a better remote.

     

     

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    I FOUND THE SOURCE OF MY HUM!

    Joy of joys, and after just spending $200 on Deuland kitted L-pads. Idiot.

     

    The USB cable between the Xilica and computer.... always plugged in so I can make Xilica adjustments.... unplugged, BINGO, DEAD SILENT amps. Very very happy to have finally worked it out. 

     

    Seems silly, but I'd tried turning the computer and the xilica off individually and together, and not had any improvement - as such I never thought to try disconnecting them...

     

    Anyone looking for a hot deal on 2x 5r7 and 2x 3r Deuland Silver Graphite cast resistors? 🙂

    • Like 2

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Chris A said:

     

     

    Now, if you ask me what I actually think about tube amplifiers, you might get a totally different response than you might otherwise think (I don't like them), I do see a couple of reasons why people think they're injecting "magic" into their systems.  They're also injecting something else that isn't magic (soft clipping is typical, especially for very low power SETs, etc.) that I don't care for, and a bunch of other nonlinear stuff that I would prefer not to deal with.  But if you're into "euphonic distortion" of tubes/valves, this is one effect that is no longer in the "magic" pile, something that's easily measurable.

     

    Chris

     

    Thanks Chris

     

    Totally agree with this (except I love tubes).

     

    I've come to realize that even the best stereo system on earth with still only be a representation of a representation of a representation (usually!) of the real thing.  Chasing perfection therefore (ie no distortion and all other negatives we speak of) is somewhat futile, thus, pick a sound you like and call it good.  I have found that tubes give that to me at the top end, and solid state delivers in the bass.  Lucky I have active Jubes right?!  

     

    Interesting by logical re the phase shift stuff.  Thanks for your wisdom as ever.

     

    Zig

    • Like 1

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    A quick update.

     

    I've picked up the Bryston 7bst monoblocks and set them up to power the Jube bins. They took some time to fully warm up, but once they did, the rewards were very apparent...

     

    The bass is now super fast, clean, dry, immediate - free of blurring. Really hearing seperate tones right down to the lower registers.. I even seem to have picked up a few extra hz! (Need to confirm this)

     

    Again, the characteristics of these amps are considerably different to the other gear, with the closest comparison being the Macrotech. But the Brystons have an edge over the big Crown in terms of speed and clean edges...

     

    I don't envy my neighbors tonight....

    20201217_202024.jpg

    • Like 1

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Chris A said:

    Me, too...  The RCA analog-only connection into the First Watt F3 picks up a fair bit of common mode noise (power line 60/120/180/240 Hz hum).  The ISO-MAX reduces that noise floor at least 20-30 dB in my experience, even though my connecting RCA analog cables are just over 1 ft. in length. The ISO-MAX filter doesn't subjectively affect the sound quality at all.  They're a bit spendy however.  I recommend them highly, nevertheless.

     

    All my other connections (i.e., seven other stereo amplifiers) are XLR/balanced and have no issues with noise floor.

     

    Chris

     Is this what you are referring to team?

    Screenshot_20201211-142455_Chrome.jpg

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Schu said:

    Look for a pair of bel canto class D's... they have a dampening factor >1000

    Dammit - a pair of those came up locally last week, "Bel Canto" sounded a bit fruity for me, so I passed.  Hopefully the Bryston's DF of 300 @ 20hz should be sufficient. 

     

    4 hours ago, rigma said:

    Ziggurat both myself and Mike use Jensen IsoMax transformers  near the input of the of the amp (within a foot) and have no hum.

     

    rigma (marion)

    Great info - thank you.  I have Deuland resistors arriving with extremely low inductance so I can build build an L-Pad with circa -12db to get the amp idle noise to near zero.  I think I mentioned the cheap resistors I have in there have taken a fraction of 3d effect out, hopefully the Deulands will be better.  Switching to SPDIF (optical) output on my PC has helped - no hard-wire connection to the downstream components.  The PC is the main problem, sending noise back through the AC, and through it's own outputs, it seems.  Time for a Bluesound Node 2i, methinks - get the PC right out of the system.  I will also run a couple of new, filtered lines from my switchbox which should help.  My house is old, and the wiring system is less than ideal.  

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Panelhead said:

      Please do not laugh. But try 2 Micromega MyAmp integrated amplifiers. Only issue for me is they only have RCA inputs. 

      Doubt if the bass bin needs more than 60 watts. If you do, that is shakin’.

     

    I wouldn't laugh... all suggestions are valuable.

     

    Having 200+ watts at hand did get me in a frac of hot water with my neighbor five houses down the other night..... 🙂

     

     

     

    • Like 1
    • Haha 1

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    52 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

     

    That is wild pricing.  I buy used. I feel you can't go wrong with used McIntosh if purchased carefully.  For $18,000 I could have bought almost 5 of those amps.  I paid a tiny fraction of that.

     

    To be fair $18,000NZD = $12,600 USD - should have added that. :)

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    22 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

    I use 1 amp now for my Jubs, a McIntosh MC-8207.  I use 6 of the 7 channels (running 3-way).  I do use another amp for the subs.  I like this setup so much I just bought another 8207 this week for my MCM top 6 horns In that 5-way setup).  Bass cabinets and subs use other amplifiers in that system.  I found it to be a big advantage tuning the setup when the same amp is powering all channels, and it is a clean sounding McIntosh with all channels calibrated identically.

     

    I had considered doing the same - but the price of McIntosh gear is horrendous in NZ..  Retail price for that particular amp is $18,000.  Still, if I have some spare funds one day, the 8207 would be a dream come true.  

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    8 hours ago, Chris A said:

    I wouldn't go that way now that I've discovered how to dial in and bi-amp a BMS 4592ND to get about the same performance as the TD-4002--and without the FM distortion of having such a wide band of frequencies being reproduced on a single diaphragm. A Hypex FusionAmp (FA123) makes that very easy to do and replace the DSP crossover, two stereo amplifiers, and a couple of speaker wires to each loudspeaker, instead using a signal line from a preamp, player, or computer (running a PCIe to AES card), or an unbalanced RCA analog, balanced XLR analog, or S/PDIF [coaxial or optical] input.

     

    Hi Chris.  I emailed you a while back about the BMS drivers.  Can you point me to any discussions you have had here or elsewhere about these?  Many thanks.

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Hi team

     

    Thanks for the responses.  

     

    8 hours ago, parlophone1 said:

    Interesting indeed.

    If you are sure that other appliances in the house or radio-frequencies are to blame for the noise in your speakers, there are filters too remedy that issues.

    I am using such filter, although I do not have speakers with such a high sensitivity with positive result.

     

    Thanks - yes I am working on trying different filters and methods of reducing the noisy power etc.  I will hopefully be able to cull the bulk of the noise.  One of the worst polluters has been my PC... It has to be on a fully separate circuit or the noise through the power is incredible. 

     

    8 hours ago, rmlowz said:

    I have K402s with Crites passive my Inspire 45 amp is magical ! I have posted this before they have never sounded this good. I have had the K402s for 14 years. This is my latest amp I have a whole new system.

     

    Rich

     

     

    I love the 45 SET amps too - ran my Khorns with one for years. Bliss!  And so simple!

     

    6 hours ago, sunnysal said:

    When I was experimenting with triamping my khorns and using active crossovers, I too found I loved tube amplification on the top end and solid state down below.  I had my 2a3 PP on the tweeters (which replaced a slew of other amps including a tripath chip amp), My PP EL34 on the mids and a mcintosh SS on the bass bins.  Great imaging and the speakers disappeared.  But, I became disenchanted with the complexity of the system and eventually reverted to a normal xover and the 2a3 amp driving the khorns.  85-90% of the great music and no complexity!  I sometimes think about going "whole hog" again; buying jubes, an active xover and biamping again but...perhaps I will hold off a few more year until retirement when I have a lot more time on my hands and can enjoy the process AND the incremental improvement in results.  The point is to enjoy the music.  Kepp us informed about your progress.  warm regards, Tony  

     

    I know what you mean re complexity.  I have put everything in a cupboard behind my listening room so I never see the mass of componentry and cables!  I have struggled a few times with the whole active bi-amp exercise, but have decided to push on.  I don't think I am too far away from achieving the goal I set out for.  That said, if it all gets too hard, I will build a set of Khorns, or fire up my Altec 19's again, get an integrated amp and move on with life....... But for now, Ima stick at the Joobs.

     

    Catch y'all soon.

     

    Zig.

    • Like 2

    Amp Rolling with Active Jubilees

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Hi all, it's been a while since I posted here.  I wanted to share some of my experiences with Jubilees, running actively through a Xilica XP crossover / eq.  One of the main reasons for this is that when I was purchasing my Jubilees, I think I misunderstood information I had read about powering them.  Basically, I had thought that the Xilica would be a 'great leveller' making all amplifiers sound the same - that I could pretty much buy any old amp and turn it into a killer with the Xilica and high-sensitivity Jubilee combo.

     

    I can now say that whilst it is an amazing bit of kit, the Xilica does not fundamentally alter the personality of amplifiers - in my experience.  I am not an expert Xilica driver, nor am I an audio reviewer - so all that follows is just FWIW.  I have used several different amplifiers on both the bass bins and the K402 horns and am going to give a brief description of my observations, NOT to extol the virtues or otherwise of these components, but to highlight the importance of finding the right amplifiers if you own, or plan to own Jubilees. The revealing nature of the Jubes, when run actively, is not to be underestimated.  I want to add here that the Xilica certainly gives the ability to make the most of both the Jubilees and your chosen amp, but that does not mean that other choices aren't better. Like with any audio decision, listen to as many options as you can!  

     

    My upstream gear is a PC optimized for audio (Tidal), running to a Chord M-Scaler and Qutest DAC combo, then to a Wyred 4 Sound pre-amp, the Xilica, and then out to the amps.  The factory compression drivers on the 402 have been replaced with Faital HF200 8-Ohm units.

     

    Bass Amplifiers

     

    I started out with some serious grunt here after buying a bulk lot of Crown professional amps - including a Macrotec 2400 and some of the lesser models in the pro range.  All of these have had use, and (unfortunately) all of them have noisy fans, eventually leading me to seek more suitable domestic gear.  In all cases, the Crowns delivered fast, superb bass, with massive grip and speed throughout the range. With the Macrotec especially, I was barely aware there was an amplifier in the signal path, there was just bass - clean, mean bass.  All of the Crowns were between 300 and 600 watts per channel. 

     

    Next came another pro-amp - a Phonic 3000, with controlled fans - I'd hoped it wouldn't require installation OUTSIDE (I actually set the Crowns up in a box under my house because of the fans..). I knew nothing of the brand when buying it - it was simply cheap and nearby.  The thing weighs considerably more that even the Macrotech - and claimed 600wpc.  This amplifier has been checked as functional by a tech, but it doesn't sound like it. It is comparatively slow and very quiet compared to the Crowns.  Gain has to be boosted up, and straight away the bass sounds like a cardboard box being walloped with a stick. No amount of Xilica treatment, or the on-board options, can take away the annoying aspects of this amp. 

     

    I took the Phonic to be checked out, and put in a QSC 100wpc pro amp I had bought for $10.  All PEQ settings had to be altered - with only the general trend in the Xilica's curve remaining.  The sound is lively, bloomy and fun - it sounds positively old-school.  The Jubilees sound like a good old box speaker with this one in place - but in a charming way.  I knew I wasn't getting the best out of them, but the warm, wooly sound kind of took me back to yesteryear.  An entirely different experience to the other amps.

     

    Then came a Cambridge Audio 841 domestic amp, for which I had high hopes. 200wpc and well-reviewed.  This amp had the grip and speed of the Macrotech, possibly just lacking a fraction of knock-out dynamics.  Awesome. This amp helped confirm that quality kit was going to be needed ultimately.   But, sadly, it hummed 140hz (in both my system and elsewhere).  Through the efficient Jubilees at idle, this livened-up my room and was intolerable.  It was returned to the shop for credit.  and this is where things get really interesting for me.....

     

    Mid-Hi Amplifiers 

     

    The benchmark here has been my First-Watt F1J.  I have extolled the virtues of this beautiful little amplifier elsewhere on the forum.  Extremely precise, but perhaps a fraction cool?  I started to feel a sense of fatigue from it at times, even with careful attention to the parametric EQ on the Xilica.  I would go and listen to a friend's AK6 K-Horn / Leben CS600 and come home feeling like I was missing atmosphere - but that my system sounded more precise and without the shortcomings of the K-Horn system (I love K-Horns, but after owning the Jubilees, K-Horns seem 'wonderfully compromised').

     

    I decided to try another Class A solid state amp to see if I could get some more magic out of the big 402's - this time a Sugden 30 wpc unit - another hi-hope item for me.  It delivered, but not in spades.  Presentation was similar to the First Watt, with slightly richer vocals, and better imaging - which projected out past the horns a bit more than with Nelson's baby.  It was enough to make me decide to buy it, but I could have lived happily with the F1.

     

    I also tried the above Cambridge on the Faital/402 matching.  It proved to be a far better bass amp than for use up top.  Detail was smeared and unnatural sounding.  It was clear that the Xilica was not going to add refinement to this amp - helping make up my mind to return it. 

     

    The owner at the shop taking the Cambridge back offered me shop credit, but had nothing in stock I wanted.  I did see he carried Primaluna gear and so I asked about the Evolution 300 power amplifier - approx 40wpc from two EL34 tubes per side.  He had one coming, and sent it straight to me the following day.  Within 10 minutes of the Evo300 being plugged in, I knew I was in love.  Again, the PEQ had to be radically altered, but even using the Sugden setting, my room was bathed in rich, fulfilling ambient sound. Totally incomparable to the solid state amplifiers.  3-dimensionaltiy is complete - whereas in the F1 it was like looking at a flat fish-tank and the Sugden a round one, listening to the Primaluna is like plunging your head into the water.  This did NOT come from a Xilica PEQ setting -  this amplifier it simply a better match for the drive units - there is no doubt. 

     

    The Primaluna brings me everything I wanted from the top end of my system.  I'm back running the Phonic on the bass until I can sort out Bryston or some other decent bass amp. I will of course try other things that people bring over, etc - in the spirit of the open-mindedness I am trying to encourage with this post.

     

    A footnote regarding the Primaluna.  I've had two amplifiers from this company now, one an integrated that I drove Altec 19's with, and the one above.  Both have been very sensitive to EMI and dirty power.  The Evo300 produces a noticeable hum through the Faital/K402's which diminishes and grows depending on what household appliances and audio gear is switched on and off.  A Triode Wire Labs  power cord literally HALVED this noise over the supplied power cord.  No joke.  But even at the reduced level, it was not at all acceptable.  The Faital drivers have a sensitivity of 109db, so I do not blame the amp, per se. 

     

    In an effort to reduce the hum, I borrowed an Al Klappenberg autoformer and installed it between the amp and speakers. This unit offers the ability to choose your reduction from zero to -9db in steps.  At full -9db, the hum was virtually gone - but so was the 3d magic. I called this the GoneBerger Effect, and moved on to a hastily-wired up L-Pad.  This took -10db off the sensitivity, and again reduced the hum to almost nothing.  If it took a fraction of the magic out of the system, it was so very slight.  I hope to build a better L-Pad using Deuland resistors to maybe restore that last fraction, and maybe drop to -12db.  Having massive gain adjustability in the Xilica is great and appreciated when employing the above work-arounds.

     

    Anyhow, hope this has been useful, and hope you are all enjoying the music out there. 

     

    Zig.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • Like 10

    K402s sitting on their ends?

    in Klipsch Pro Audio

    Posted

    So has anyone rotated their K402s 90 degrees and listened to them this way? 

     

    I was thinking if you stood two MWMs up and propped them at the back, then sandwiched a vertical 402 in between them, it could be interesting... 

     

    Whaddya reckon?

     

    []X[]

    • Like 1

    Crown XLi amp for Jub bins?

    in Klipsch Pro Audio

    Posted

    Hi all.  Slow to report back, but I have been having an amazing time with my new Jubilee setup - sounding awesome.  I have a First Watt F1J powering the K402's and the big Crown Macro Tech 2400 doing the bins.  After some fluffing around with the EQ, I now have excellent, room filling, scary bass down to 29hz, falling away to not much after that.  Stoked.

     

    The Macro is a beaut, but it is noisy - too noisy really.  Fans, transformer hum etc - an old gem, but I want to replace it.  

     

    I know the Crown XLi series is a completely different ballgame to the Iron Giant Macro, but I would be very interested in hearing peoples thoughts on these for the Jube bins.. I can get an XLi3500 for not too much money, new.

     

    Appreciate any input here - however it is worth noting that because I am away down in New Zealand, much of what you guys buy, and the likes of EBay scores, are not available to me - epecially given 240 volt etc.

     

    Cheers!

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