Steve P

How does one pile on the suggestion at Klipsch? This would be ideal from my viewpoint. I am currently using an RC-35 between a pair of Forte III's. I have thought of using a Heresy III center, but that would mean replacing or rebuilding cabinetry (to use it vertically). It seems like the RC-64ii is the best horizontal layout replacement for the RC-35 now, but I am concerned about what kind of match it would be to the Forte's. I would definitely have a hard time holding on to my wallet if they offered a horn-loaded heritage horizontal center.

For classical, I find WDAV (a public station located at Davidson College) in the Charlotte, NC area to have a good selection, including live and semi-live performances, and excellent quality for a stream. It is available anywhere you can connect to a standard stream. For computers, I am an Ubuntu fan as well. Linux has served me well as both a user and developer for decades. But it is not without its sore points. There are great tools and it is a straightforward development target as long as you do not have to interact directly with ALSA or systemd.

Exactly! With "only speakers," there is a clear bump at about 45-50Hz, just where you would calculate that first standing wave. And it is accompanied by an audible (though not particularly unpleasant) "boominess". The little bit of added shaping provided by the room correction flattens this out and gives a pretty well-defined mid-bass. For the little bit of musical content below the Forte cutoff, the little sub seems capable of filling in smoothly at the volumes at which I listen. I will probably keep playing with the placement and height as suggested by others, but I am not sure that I will detect a whole lot of additional change. I don't think that my ears are quite as trained and cultured as y'all's. What I can tell is that the weak link in the system has shifted from the speakers back to the source material. This is making me take a much more critical look at my collection. What is still a bit of a mystery to me is the source of the greatly improved clarity (particularly in the midrange). It is clearly audible, but not apparent in the spectral response compared to the old Advents (except, perhaps above 12K where the Advents start flagging and the Forte's do not). I have some theories, but no hard core measurements for support: 1) spectral response is actually different at the levels I listen, but not at the test levels (unlikely) 2) while spectral response is only a bit better in the Forte's, they have a much more linear phase 3) lower intermodulation distortion (likely, and one of PWK's frequent contentions as a design goal) 4) directionality of the horns result in less wall interaction in the less-than-ideal room and therefore less phase ambiguity Whatever the reason, I am glad of it. Now to start working with the 45 year old turntable I just finished rebuilding.

Never one to ignore experienced advice, I finally found some time to adjust the speaker-to-wall spacing. I turned off the room correction and disconnected the sub so that I was just looking at the speakers themselves and tried them in their current position (~7in) and again at ~13inch. I do not have good measurement equipment for this at the moment, so the comparison is strictly listening subjective. I used both test tones from 30Hz to 60 Hz and some organ (Jean Guillou's excellent transcription of Pictures at an Exhibition). As expected from the specs, the Forte's were quite audible but struggled at 30Hz regardless of spacing. In general, it appeared that there was a little more strength in the bass at the larger spacing, but the difference was hardly dramatic. Increasing the spacing further made no difference that I could discern, and spacing that was large compared to the cabinet dimensions actually seemed to reduce the bass. I should note that the speakers are toed in, so their rears do not directly face the back wall. All in all, the speakers seem quite tolerant of placement to me and produce excellent sound. Now that I have had them for a while, I am still amazed at the clarity of their reproduction. At one time I have played both the low end (string bass in orchestra and dance band) and the high end (flute and piccolo in orchestra, chamber trio) and can now find myself recognizing some of the detail technique on these instruments that was not discernible before.

I debated a lot about the initial position from the wall. I am starting with what seemed to be in the middle of various thread comments, about 7" from the wall and toed toward the listening position. Another test with them farther out is definitely in the cards. The good news is that the base is quite solid already in this position. Any improvement would, of course, be welcomed. Interestingly, the Forte's seem to couple to the 50 and 100 Hz room resonances more weakly than the sealed Advents did. I am guessing this may have to do with the passive radiator phase. What is important to me is the detail in the bass, not just the magnitude, and the Forte's do not disappoint in that regard. Among other things, I like to listen to organ music, which is quite demanding of both the original recording and the reproduction chain. Nothing in this system will go down to the fundamental of the 32' pipes. But the detail in the voicing of the various 16' ranks is the best I have heard outside of a live performance. Cooper has indeed chosen his preferred listening position on the couch and provides his own commentary. As you well know, Shelties do their own thing for their own reasons and we are sometimes just left to guess.

Cory was definitely on my short list. But we have a Heritage dealer here in Charlotte, and I felt that it was appropriate to support a local dealer who maintains demo units on the floor. There are so few of them left anymore compared to the old days. The desk is an immovable object. I had the same idea and tried just what you suggest, but was told to move it back. There is a little flexibility on the right, though moving it much both makes the layout asymmetrical with respect to the screen (aesthetics) and possibly shades the speaker with the couch. I may indeed play with that a bit.

Since I seem to be on a roll with the photos, here is one showing the "listening room". Actually, this room has to do it all, and it is far from ideal as acoustics go. Half of it is a box with a calculated standing wave at 45-50 Hz; the other half is wide open, as you can see from my camera position. The center speaker is a RC-35, but I have not used it since adding the Forte's (their phantom center is superior to the RC-35). There is a 10" klipsch sub to the right of the front right speaker (it has a green cloth on top). Since the Forte's entered the picture, it does not have a whole lot to do. I think that the horns actually help the poor room layout by minimizing some of the reflections -- but that is just untested theory. The Shetland Sheepdog is a movable absorber ;).

Looks like that works, so here is the second one with the tops.

Trying your suggestion.

It looks like I cannot upload photos (and yes, they were < 2MB). Perhaps I am too new?

I am a bit reluctant to include the photos after seeing all of the very nice listening rooms that have been displayed here. But here are a couple of pictures of the speakers in position and one of the top since I have seen some interest in the tone of the cherry. For reference, I have color-corrected the pictures to the off-white wall behind the screen, though they seem a bit dark in the thumbnail. The turned wooden goblet is maple with a natural finish. It is an almost exact match to the klipsch cabinets. It is hard to get a good picture of the cabinets since they tend to pick up the colors around them. If the veneer is real cherry (I believe the walnut finish is _not_ real walnut, so I can not be sure here), then I expect that the cabinets will darken over time.

It took a while to get them due to a miscommunication between the factory and dealer here regarding the "special order" of lambswool grills with cherry cabinets (a very handsome combination, by the way). But I picked up the Forte iii's this evening and put them in the system in place of the advents. I did not A-B, just put them in and tried out a few things. The first couple of general orchestral pieces sounded nice, but I was not sure that the improved sound was the speakers or our anticipation. Then we put on a James Galway album and my wife and I both went "Oh wow!" The improvement in clarity in the midrange and treble was striking. Yo-yo Ma was the same story - like having his cello in the room. I do not see the same degree of difference in the couple of symphonic pieces I have tried so far, but I suspect that might actually be the limitation of the source material and not reproduction chain. So thanks to y'all that nudged me in the direction of the Forte's. I am sure that there is some optimization to be done, and I need to live with them a while. But at least here at the beginning I certainly do not find the speakers to be harsh or fatiguing. Some _music_, yes . . . but that is the price of accurate reproduction in my mind. I only have one disappointment - I looked all over them and could not find Roy Delgado's signature anywhere. I guess it must be inside.

As a certified (certifiable?) newbie, I was indeed confused about how to identify moderators . I suppose in retrospect I should have figured out the significance of the color shift, but I am used to seeing moderators explicitly identified. Now that I know thanks to this thread, it makes little difference to me whether it is in the title. Perhaps adding how to identify moderators to the forum rules sticky would help out dense newbies like me.

After more research and just a bit more listening, I took this advice and put in an order for a pair of Forte iii. Without the direct comparison, to a certain extent I am buying them on faith - the assurance of sound hoped for and the certainty of things not yet heard. I am looking forward to hearing them in my own room and perhaps comparing them to the Advents before I move those upstairs. I have a suspicion that, notwithstanding my measurements, I will find that the listening comparison will bear out Deang's comments.

Roy Delgado's association with the design as well as his comments and participation on this forum are, indeed, one of the things that incline me towards Klipsch in general and the Forte III in particular. The approach to design that he describes makes a lot of physical sense. And I suspect that the lack of a distinct midrange driver may well be a part of the problem with the Advent -- making the large cone try to cover too much of the frequency range. I cannot speak particularly to the high range of the Advent, though I did notice last night that the high violin note in the Tchaikovsky violin concerto sounded decidedly sick. Of course that could be the speaker, recording quality or even (unlikely) the original violin. On the low end, however, the Advent is definitely better than some think. The original specification of 3db roll off was between 33 and 38 Hz (depended on which piece of advertising literature you read!). I have made a few measurements of my own, and the speaker is down a bit but still pumping at 30Hz. Placed side-by-side with the 10" subwoofer, the low-frequency spectral envelope of the Advent lies above that of the subwoofer at similar overall levels. The comparison is probably more meaningful than the actual levels, since room acoustics have such a strong influence in this frequency range. It is also true that such a measurement with a modest pure sine does not show which will begin distorting first. Notably, the later Advents had a much shallower bass; but the early models were actually pretty good, or at least I got a particularly good set. Thanks for the positive feedback about the Forte III, particularly vis-a-vis the Paradigm. I do really appreciate the advice.