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Everything posted by Supersteff

  1. Hi Ron Sorry, did not sea your post until now. I must admit that I do not have a finished plan for the attachment of the second flare yet, and I am still far from building a horn. I am stil in the planning and preparation, trying to figure out where to start. But if I do understand your question right, you want to extend the tractrix-curve of the second flare all the way out to 90 degrees, and by so extending the whole horn. I think the idea makes sense You could make two frames, an outer one extending the tractrix-curve, and an other one screwed on from the back, clamping the K402 horn between them? Does that make sense? Happy new year 🙂 Steffen
  2. Hi Tweakin I did ask Chris the same question some time ago in this thread, and Chris did answer it back then. You have to go back and find it your self, I have lost track of where it is, its in the last third I guess. I have decided to build my horns about 53 inches wide, as that is as big as I can accommodate in my living-room. It´s actually about where Chris estimates the (meaningful) limit to be, 60 inches I think he mentioned. Meaningful in respect to your/most living-rooms Schröder-frequency. Directivity-control makes sense as long as the reflections in the room behave like billiard balls, and that is the case above Schröder-frequency, below that frequency room modes (standing waves) are dominating. That is how I understood Chris in regard to size. I have followed this for some time now, and there doesn´t seem to be a commercially available horn alternative to the K402, so building a horn based on Bill Waslo´s spreadsheet is the second best option as I see it. I have decided to build my horns in two sections. The primary horn (first expansion) with all the drivers, and a second section (second expansion) for the outer flare/second flare. In that way I can get my horns through the doors in my house, and it will be less heavy to transport! And I can experiment in steps, so that I can start with straight (second) flares and later build som tractrix-like flares. I hope that helps. Steffen
  3. Hi I was wondering what you refer to in regard to wiring between your two woofers and the Icepower 125asx2BTL? So I take it, that you had your two woofers wired in series and then driven BTL. I don´t know how well you are into your Icepower-amp, so excuse me if i tell you something you already know. I have attached the manual for the Icepower 125asx2. On page 9 there are some Power Specifications, but it doesn´t seem to indicate, that there should be much difference in output-power whether driven with two channels SE and 4 ohm or one channel BTL and 8 ohm!? An other thing that I noticed when studying the manual is, that there is a pin on the signal connector from the DSP-board to the ICEPOWER-board that says "BTL Sync". Page 6. When it is activated it synchronizes the switching-frequencies of the two amp-channels. Page 12. I don´t know how much DIY your amps are, but maybe that is an issue when driven in BTL without synchronization? On my MiniDSP plateamps, the software/dsp-board takes care of that. (I own six of the MiniDSP PWR-ICE-125 plate-amps, and have studied the the manual for the Icepower 125asx2, to figure out how I can substitute the Icepower with a small class A amp. There is a manual for the Icepower 125asx2 on the MiniDSP homepage.) Steffen ICEpower125ASX2_Datasheet_1_9 (3).pdf
  4. I would be very interested in a summary, thanks in advance. If I recall correctly, DSL uses a second order high-pass-filter on the throat-mounted CD (a capacitor and a coil of low DC-resistance), so that the voice-coil of the CD is short-circuited by the low Ohm coil, to prevent it from being "excessively modulated by the woofer motion". This could also be done by the low output-impedance of an amplifier when the CD is directly coupled to the amplifier. Please correct me if I am wrong. Best regards Steffen
  5. Hi Chris Hmm, I need to ask to be sure to understand what you are saying here. Are you saying here, that it is OK to use a first order high-pass on the AXI2050, without messing with/degrading the phase-response? I presume in combination with PEQ´s. In an other thread of yours, you have said that the AXI2050 does NOT need to have any high-pass filtering (only PEQ´s) to protect it from low frequencies (when not playing very loud) only utilizing the natural roll-off of the CD for cross-over. I hope I made my point clear!? Steffen
  6. How about hanging the TV on the wall, and have some heavy curtains in front of it, that can be pulled to the sides. i.e. inbetween the Cornwalls and the TV, when not in use? Then you have automatic storage! 😉 Have you thought about experimenting with absorption on the sidewalls of your listening-room? It seems your Cornwalls are standing right up a sidewall? Just a thought. Steffen
  7. This is a somewhat disturbing thread, due to the fact that I do own 6 MiniDSP PWR-ICE-125 plate-amps! I bought them some years ago, before I found Klipsch Community and the K 402 MEH, to build a traditionally 3 way loudspeaker. Well as is, I do not have any issues with the sound of the DSP processor and the ICE-Power class D amplifier, as my system only consists of a woofer and a fullrange-driver (Visaton B200). The little AMT driver is not connected yet, and the crossower´s are not really optimised. So I have not heard the plate-amp on a dedicated high-frequency device like my AMT-tweeter. But I am a bit nervous that I will hear some of, what is described in this threat! By the way, as I do have six plate-amps, I use them in bridged mode, to supres some hum. BUT now to the first big question that has been haunting me for a while: Will It be possible/listenable to use an AXI2050 in a K402-like horn with an ICE-POWER amp??????? I have an idea of substituting the ICE-POWER amp with a little german DIY class A amp that is inspired by the Aleph 0 amp by Nelson Pass ( https://www.buscher-endstufen.de/produkte/se-12/ ) and keep the dsp-module. Next question: I know that you Chris use D75 amps for your woofers. Do you think it would be "safe" to use an ICE-Power amp for woofer-duties, or would you also say go for class A for the woofers in the MEH? Then mister Buscher also has a SE25 class A amp (25 W 4 ohm), that I could substitute. I thought this was the right place to ask. Thank you in advance. Regards Steffen
  8. Thank you Chris I have read my way through the terms of use, and am now confident that this is a good place to share a build when time comes. Steffen
  9. That is very interesting! I have been thinking in the same direction. Please keep us updated. I have been wondering for some time, whether it would be OK to create a thread here on Klipsch Community Forum to share a big-MEH build? although it is not a Klipsch product it is heavily inspired by one, the K402 horn. And I regard this forum to be an excellent and natural place to share and gain knowledge about horns. I have learned a lot here. Regards Steffen
  10. Hi Mark That makes sense, and you seem to have succes with keeping pre-ringing-effects low/"inaudible" with Would that in a way imply, that your tuning technique kind of fixes/moves pre-ringing-effects to sub -30 dB, when the HP- and LP-slopes start to differ from the ideal curves? I don´t know how pre-ringing sounds, but i guess its like muddy waters or something. So the lover the "hold-to-target"-requirement, the "clearer" the sound (waters)? Maybe this is obvious, I just try to picture it for my self!? Thanks for your explanation and pictures.
  11. Hi Mark I have been wondering , how far out of band do you have to flatten? If we consider a two-way MEH with a crossover-frequency of say 500 Hz between woofer and CD (I can´t remember how low you cross in your synergy´s?), up to what frequency do you flatten the woofers? Also how far down for the CD? Is it one octave or is half an octave enough? I wonder about the 1/4 wave cancelation-notch, how do you get around that, or do you need much overlap for that reason? just curious. Regards Steffen
  12. Hi Chris and Mark (Gnarly) This is a very interesting discussion, and also a bit complicated to discuss, depending on what trade-off´s are made/intended?! That would be one set af trade-off´s as, I see it. A two way horn-system with a set of woofers to do the 20-200 Hz duty. A. That requires bigger ports to go low. B. the "big 402 horn" does not provide optimal loading for the woofers in the lower octaves, meaning that the modulation distortion can go up!? These are my assumptions, they may not be correct. I have just begun to understand the implication and importance of (inter-)modulation-distortion in my own experience with two big basshorns in my listening-room years ago, due to knowledge conveyed by you (Chris), an the article called "The Mud Factor". I called it the effekt of invisible/weightless bass back then. Today I know/believe it is the absence of modulation-distortion I heard back then! I liked that invisible/weightless bass so very much, in fact I strive to have it in my future system. Therefor I have been thinking of an other set of trade-off´s, a three way system: A "big 402 horn" with Axi2050´s with smaller off-axis ports (and smaller woofers I guess) crossed at maybe 80Hz to some sort of horn-sub-bass that is more optimized for that region of bass, i.e. 20-100 Hz, length and flare-rate. Of course placed in a corner, and it will fill some more space!. With this set of trade-off´s I would still have full-range directivity with less disturbance from the off-axis ports and lover modulation-distortion in the bass. I do assume that the ports in a MEH do have to be "oversized"/made bigger, to be able to play down to 20 Hz without chuffing. This has been one of the things I have been thinking about for some time. And I guess it has to be remembered here, that the "original K402 MEH" was developed to be a center-speaker, and not for corner-placement! That must must have influenced the choice of woofers and porthole-dimensions? I have often wondered how a K402MEH, optimized to be supported by a Jubilee-bass-bin would have to be constructed? Also I have been wondering, if the woofer-section of the K402MEH is approaching direct radiating bass-reproduction due to less and less hornloading as frequency goes down? I know the K402 is a conical horn and hence has no cut-off as an exponential horn does. You, Chris, have shown illustrations about that before, but is there a point, where the woofers see no hornloading anymore? All that said. The "big 402 horn" as proposed by Chris might just be a very fine and balanced compromise! Regards Steffen
  13. Hi Mark Nice work! Thanks for trying my idea. I have been looking at the picture of your compromise, smiley with round hole. In a way it seems to me that it approaches my suggestion for at smiley (in average pulls the middle section of the port nearer to the apex/CD), constructed as an arc with the center in the apex. So it gets more 🙂 than 😊. That would for me be the geometrically most beautiful solution! Although I don´t know if that is a valid design-criteria!? I think it was good old Buckminster Fuller who said something like: "A good solution of a problem is often also a beautiful solution for the eye!" If you have the time, energy and motivation then here is a new proposal: What if you make a 🙂/smiley with an open mouth. An elliptically shaped port, eventually a "smiling" ellipse. Still following the idea of an arc relative to the apex, but just wider in the middle section of the port. This could somehow be "the beautiful version" of the smiley/hole-version. Maybe you will have to place the "smiling-ellipse-port" off-center relative to your woofer, to get it near enough to the CD? Just an other compromise/trade off!!!! Happy experimenting! Steffen
  14. Hi Mark I have been wondering about "time-smearing" (maybe the wrong word for that effect?) due to different distances to the apex of the "open area" of the ports (off- or on-axis). What defines the wave-front of the woofers response, i.e. acoustic center!? It apparently is no big issue with round holes! Chris wrote something about it some time ago. That the cancelation-notch is "spread" out due to differences in distance of the outer/middle/inner part of the port relative to the apex. I hope you do understand what I am trying to explain!? I would have expected a "happy face/🙂" to be best!? If I imagine the sound-wave-front to progress out through the conical horn as a segment of a sphere (like a soap-bubble), then the surface of the sound-bubble would "cut" the horn-wall as a "happy face" ( equal distance to the apex at all positions). You can se a bit of that in the big Jericho synergy´s with 6 times 18" drivers firing through holes that are arranged in an arc, following the intended sound-bubble! Could you try a happy face to? Following the sound-bubble. I think it would be an arc with the center in the apex. But I think you can figure it out. 🙂 Steffen PS: Thank you for experimenting and sharing!
  15. Hmm Wouldn't that be kind of the same as bass-reflex? Maybe you could tune lower with heavier passive radiators, but you still have all the "bad" things from the bass-reflex! I have contemplated making a big MEH with four 8" woofers (one each corner) covering maybe 100-300 Hz, supported by 4 times 15" woofers (one each corner) as kind of a build in sub with 1/4 wavelenght integration. In that way I could reduce the size of the off-axis ports near the compressiondriver, hoping that the extra bigger holes further out the horn for the 15's won't disturb the sound waves in the midrange so much, and gain more membrane-area in the sub! That would make a really big true point-source! We'll see, if I ever build it. But I would prefer that approach to a design with passive woofers. Steffen
  16. Maybe this answers your question? I believe there are many woofers out there that can be used in a MEH, especially considering that you need a DSP anyway to cross, boost and attenuate. Steffen
  17. @rickmcinnis Is that a similar idea as with Geddes foam-plug of reticulated foam in front of the throat in his Summas/OS high-frequency-horn? As I have understood it, Geddes foam-plug is there, to prevent "back-reflections" from the horn-mouth to re-enter the horn and be emitted out. Some sort of absorption of reflections? Maybe it´s something related to his HOM´s!? Well, I´m not sure my explanation is right. But an interesting thing to explore if it has "relaxing" effect, and could be an improvement!? Steffen
  18. Hi Gnarly. I'm just guessing here. Are FIR-filters always with the same delay? Maybe the lower the crossower-frequency the longer the needed delay, due to longer wavelenghts? My thought is, that the delay is given by the high-pass-crossower-frequency, in your case 100 Hz. You could check that hypotese, by creating high-pass-filters with say 200 Hz, and see if the deley gets shorter/lower or stays the same!? I think that for lower frequencies you need more taps, and more taps make more delay. Is that correct? Steffen
  19. Hi gnarly/Mark Well that was my best guess on the delay. Maybe Chris can shed some light on that phenomenon? And your FIR-filters are interesting! Have to go now. Steffen
  20. fantastic---you have the CAD drawings of the MEH K402 - in a rectangular cabinet , could you simulate what size drivers could fit ? Hi RandyH000 I think you mistake me for someone else, maybe StabMe, who has an other thread in this forum making a wooden K402-horn? I don´t have any drawings, unfortunately.
  21. Hi Gnarly Well I kind of thought of you, when I wrote "somebody" 😄. It seems you are pretty skilled in building horns. I hope to become skilled to, but have some issues preventing me from starting up my synergy-projects. Interesting to see what you come up with. I think it is important to think thoroughly about the design of the "experiment" to really know what you are looking for. As said, I´m most interested in Danley-style ports. On the other hand, I have contemplated to build a horn your stile (one woofer top/bottom in between the walls), but with two smaller woofer-ports instead of one, i.e. like a compromise between Danley-style and Gnarly-style. That way the port would not be in the center and the ports would be smaller!? Dunno if that is a good idea? Can this be caused by a phase-shift/delay caused by the acoustic low-pass-filter of the band-pass-enclosure that the woofers are playing through? I think Tom D hinted at something like that once. A lot to learn! I really appreciate this learning environment/forum and the people contributing with knowledge and experience. Well this thread has partly developed into some sort of learning/understanding thread for Big MEH´s, so I don´t know where else to put it? Most of the threads started by Chris tend to develop into educational threads going in all sorts of directions, answering all kind of questions in regard to MEH´s! Maybe start a new thread for "Experiments and explorations of the MEH-concept"? I think we are quite some people following this thread, that do not have access to K402-horns for different reasons (me living in Denmark, Europe), but are inspired by the K402 for some kind of DIY-solution like yours. Steffen
  22. Well the SH96 has a square cabinet, that does not fit in the corner! But the SH96 is an inspiration. I have been contemplating 4 woofers (16 ohms all in parallel) too, to be able to place the woofer centered over the off-axis ports. Steffen
  23. OK, thank you. Then the advantage of top/bottom woofers is mostly, that it is easier to build a "triangular" cabinet for the horn, making it fit the room-corner better and maybe picking the boundaries up better? Like the SH50 but 90x60. Steffen
  24. I have been wondering for some time, weather it makes a difference, where the off-axis-ports are located, i.e. on the sides or top/bottom? How does it affect the horizontal dispersion? In other words, would it be a good idea to place the woofers top/bottom, so that the off-axis-ports disturbances are moved from the horizontal to the vertical plane? Suggestion for an experiment: Someone builds a 60x60 horn of reasonable full-range MEH size, mount a CD and woofers on two opposing sides and then measure polar response vertical, horizontal (and maybe even diagonally?) with and without off-axis-ports drilled (like Gnarly did). There are of course at least two options for the placement of the off-axis-ports, Danley-style and Gnarly-style. I´d prefer to see the results for Danley-stile off-axis-ports. That experiment could potentially be very educational if carefully designed. Maybe there could be some group-funding per PayPal to pay for some sheets of plywood? I am not in a position to execute that experiment. Steffen
  25. Hi all Celestion has developed a piece of software to simulate horns for their compression-drivers, called HornWizard: https://celestion.com/our-news/celestions-hornwizard-app-makes-winter-namm-2021-debut/ I have downloaded it and did play with it a bit, some time ago. You can simulate horns with and without diffraction-slot and it will compute the frequency-plot (maybe also polar-plots, can´t remember). It also generates a nice picture of the simulated horn, and the one´s with diffraction-slot always seem to look like the big Celestion horn for the AXI2050, shown previously in this thread! What I did notice was that the frequency-plots for horns simulated with diffraction-slot have high-frequency-ripple, the one´s without do not! Play with it an see for your self. regards Steffen
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