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sixspeed

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Posts posted by sixspeed

  1. No problem. But yeah, 150W is honestly more than plenty to adequately drive RF-7s.

     

    But there are other figures and specs besides pure power output that also play a role as well and this is how you can have multiple amps with a similar output rating perform very differently. 

  2. You should definitely give the Luxman 505/550 integrateds a serious look as well which are a couple grand cheaper than something like a Yamaha 3200 and are just as good if not better. The McIntosh and Accuphase "entry" level integrateds are also worthy of consideration.

     

    For Class D I wouldn't sleep on the TEAC AP-701B power amp which is much cheaper than other options, very well built with HQ parts. TEAC and its sister brands like Esoteric, TASCAM, Onkyo and Integra are now owned by the Klispch parent company FWIW. You'd need a preamp for it though.

     

    I'm not a fan of Class D for heritage but the Reference and RP speakers are a different story. Jeff Rowland amps would be a very good pairing for an RF7.

     

    Such as dual Rowland 125s as mono blocks in bridge mode if you wanna do mono blocks. Those will have plenty of power to excite the dual 10s on the RF7s which like a lot of current despite the high efficiency rating of the speaker. IMHO the RC-64 and RF7s are sensitivity overrated by around 5-6dB so think of them as 90/91dB speakers. High current/power, well measuring Class D tonally and amp pairing wise would be a great match.

     

    Lastly I'd give the Bryston B135 Cubed consideration as well.

  3. I agree with some of the other comments. Perhaps for the future, a more car audio oriented or permanent/70v distributed audio like in ceilings spread around your RV for good coverage may be the way to go in the future.

     

    Personally, I prefer powered monitors for smaller speakers which benefit from built in protections and made for purpose amplification. The little JBL powered monitors, the 300 series would be a nice replacement if you want to try something else.

     

    I would also take a look at your receiver. It's distortion may be higher than ideal and perhaps it was never an ideal pairing for the 600 in the first place.

     

    A lot of the receiver makers now a days cheap out massively on the amp sections now. Especially as they have more royalties to pay out the more codecs and formats they have to support so in order to turn a profit they cut costs more. And all of it, like the 600s are made overseas in China, Vietnam, Malaysia etc. It's not the same as the Klipsch made in Hope. It's just not. But at least Klipsch still makes stuff here. A lot of JBL's higher end stuff is made in Mexico and China.

     

    Not gonna get anything ultra high quality in the more budget price point, but I can understand the frustration especially when you perceived to not driving them as hard as you thought you were. Clearly enough to blow them though. Small speakers are much more limited and easier to blow up regardless.  Powered speakers might be a good alternative. Klipsch even has a few offerings and for outdoor maybe pick up one of their table top bluetooth speakers or even something like the new gig speakers if you want some decent volume for background while working outside. And use the 600s just for inside listening.

     

    Good luck.

    • Like 2
  4. The low watt Class A Pass amps seem to work best for Heritage of all Pass' designs. New McIntosh is very quiet as well. Something like a MC-152 if you want to stick Class AB would be a nice choice. The MA5200 I had, non-autoformer was very quiet and sounded wonderful, it's essentially the integrated version of the 152. A MC-152 or Bryston 2.5B3 would be on my personal shortlist if I were you. Both are direct competitors and priced the same in the $4800-5500 price point. Bryston has a 20 year warranty guarantee on all their analog gear. Yamaha I agree makes some very nice amps but most are integrated amps and their $10,000 flagship power amp was really designed in mind for a complete Yamaha 5000 series system with their NS-5000 speakers. If you want a warmer sound with arguably the nicest build quality in the industry with ultra low noise you should also give Accuphase Class A a look like the A-48 also priced the same as the Yamaha 5000.

     

    All Bryston amps have adjustable gain settings for SE or XLR input and pro models even have trim pots on the back.

     

    Amp pairing and digital front end electronics are even more critical on high efficiency speakers both for noise and how revealing they are showing off a particular components sonic characteristics for better or worse!

     

    I agree with the above that the higher power A/B Pass Labs amps by default are designed more in mind for lower efficiency conventional "box" speakers. Although I didn't know they offered a custom factory service when ordered new to tailor the gain for the customer, I agree the more "devices" in the amplifiers output stage path, the more distortion and noise that can get in there that won't get on well with horns. Heritage is super revealing of the front end electronics and can highlight the sonic differences between amp types and the house sound of various amp makes.

  5. 5 hours ago, Flevoman said:

    If I may continue thinking about this topic for a moment.

    And this is purely hypothetical.

     

    The high and mid horns are the same between the LaScala and Klipschorn, right?

    Logically, I would assume that only the bass section makes the difference between these two speakers.

    If I place the Klipschorn against a long wall, not with one side against the wall but like how I currently have the LaScala set up. So, with the back of the speaker against the wall, horns facing me, and slightly angled so that the intersection point is just behind my listening position.

    Logically, I would think that the mid and high frequencies would sound exactly like how the LaScala sounds now, considering they have the same drivers, horns, and placement.

    Knowing that the Klipschorn doesn't perform optimally because it's not in the corners, it should still sound better in the low frequencies compared to the LaScala, and the mid and high frequencies would be the same.

    So even with this incorrect way of placing the Khorns this way it should still outperform the lascala. 

     

    Is this a plausible assumption, or am I drawing incorrect conclusions?

     

    Despite the similarities, the KHorn is just a better sounding speaker in everyway IMO. Including the new gen which I don't like as much as the previous gen. It's not just the bass either, it has more air, does dynamics better and just pressurizes a room better. The midrange doesn't sound as congested either, especially compared to the AL5. I know it's not the same as in person but Paducah posted a video that gives one a broad strokes idea of that in their AK6 vs AL5 comparison video. You can hear how much mushier the midrange is vs the KHorn AK6.

     

    The sealed KHorn bass bin was something that was experimented with for 20-30 years and the only 2 production models where Klipsch did this prior to the AK6 was the 60th and 70th Anniversary KHorn. The Most recent anniversary model being the last of the AK5s made prior to the change to the AK6 design/driver changes.

     

    So PWK had definitely considered/experimented with a sealed KHorn bass bin for some time. Especially considering the fact that the underground Jubs he loved were front ported and sealed in the back using a KPT style bass horn. On the sealed KHorn they vent on the side but forwards at a 45 degree angle with a smaller exiting than the KPT bin. It acts as a further horn on the sealed back and really helps pressurize the room with fast, tight, clean bass. Makes integrating and finding an adequate sub that can keep up quite difficult. A fast sealed REL, Rythmik or Velodyne will do that ok other than a massive Danley tapped horn.

     

    And even though the bass bin is sealed, the Klipschorn is still very much a cornerhorn speaker. The sealed bin just gives one a bit of flexibility with toe in or when they have heating baseboards that stick out a 2-3 inches from the bottom wall that would be problematic on the open back model. So they still need to be at the very least in the vicinity of a corner, ideally no further than a 1ft or 2 off one. They can be placed in non-corners but the bass won't be nearly as authoritative and the bass bin may even draw attention to itself on deeper/harder hitting music/content depending on the room and other factors.

     

     

    • Like 2
  6. On 7/1/2023 at 8:35 AM, henry4841 said:

    Exponential vs Tractrix horn?

     

    I don't think it's that. The new AL5 and AK6 are just voiced different. New tweeter, changes to the horn cabinet, new wiring etc.

     

    But the tweeter horn on them is specifically mentioned as Tractrix though where as the previous era was not in specs.

     

    The K-77Ds still essentially used the classic tried and true EV-35/Alnico tweeter horn. The New K771s the horn is different and on the new ones they are connected at the top of the mid horn and the front baffle of the tweeter horn sticks out a bit to the top of the mid horn. I'm no acoustic engineer but that change always struck me as an odd design choice.

     

    There are no blend issues between the tweeter and the midhorn on the AK5/LSII so the small gap between them wasn't noticeable as they were perfectly seamless when playing. Both were also matched phenolic diaphragm compression drivers where as the K771 uses different materials compared to the K55-X driver and specifically mentions the newly designed tweeter horn as well. Klipsch also definitely did some changes to the exponential K55-X midhorn as well. So the end result is a different sounding speaker. When you add it all up.

     

    IDK, if it's not broken, don't fix it. The LS II was a damn fine good speaker as was the K-77D tweeter. I would have just updated the new look to the LSII and put the new sealed bass horn cabinet on the KHorn and left them alone.

     

    IMHO of all the new models I think they did the best job on the Forte IV, both value for $ and sound.

     

    Porting the Heresy was also a mistake and makes using it as a center channel far more difficult as does placing near a wall in 2ch use more cumbersome due to the port. If you want more bass just add a sub. The Heresy was meant to be a sealed speaker.

     

    The Cornwall, Heresy, KHorn and LaScala all changed a lot compared to their previous generation pre-2018.

    • Like 1
  7. They would actually work pretty well in that room. My room is not too dissimilar but I have an opening further down, another foot or two and its just a small door sized opening, not opening into another room as the rest is essentially sealed. And also have a sofa on the side but its another 2-4ft down yours is a bit closer. Anyone in the middle part there would get good sound though watching general entertainment like TV.

     

    Now as others said with the toe in if they cross just in front of your main seating area you will a stable stereo image. In my case I have mine to cross just a foot or so behind my MLP because I get better point source imaging with movies so I send a little bit of L+R fill to my center Heresy and I get a better sweetspot for music than I would have for straight 2ch anyway.

     

    Bass wise, a sealed cabinet KHorn would work a bit better though, despite them sitting tight in both corners, reason being mostly the left side where the wall ends and opens to the other room and the KHorns with the open bass bins critically use the corner as an acoustic amplifier/extended horn to complete the bass bin. The sealed ones need corners as well but they have more flexibility for rooms like yours.

     

    Granted since it would sit snug though, active room correction or running stereo subwoofers and adjusting for the left side which may likely have a slightly weaker bass response will probably solve any issues that would cause.

     

    If the speakers are in very good cosmetic shape, and the drivers aren't blown or anything doing a brief test, if the price is right I'd buy 'em. You can always sell them if you don't like them.

    • Like 1
  8. 12 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

    I wouldn’t let a Bryston amp near my horns. But that’s just me. Not a fan.

     

    I feel the same way about Crown class D, but tons of people use it.

     

    Each to their own but their lower powered amps are phenomenal. Depends on the sound one is into, what their usage is like and what music one listens to.

     

    A lot of tube amps and other SS, often have both far too high a noise floor and smothers detail and air for my liking.

     

    Old/Vintage McIntosh solid state (pre and amps) is especially terrible in my experience. Rolled off, mushy midrange, bloated, sluggish bass and way more hiss at idle than I could live with. Hi-Fi has come a long way since the 60s and 70s.

    • Like 3
  9. As others said it's the amp and/or it's gain setting if yours can be adjusted to lower. I'm not familiar with that model from Pass.

     

    I went through a lot of solid state amps, integrateds and surround pre-pro combos before I found the quietest, best sounding amp and digital front end. It had to be dead quiet at the MLP at the very least. It cost me a lot of money and 3-4 years of trial and error but loving the sound of heritage and being invested in my speakers I wanted to get the most from them and have them be completely inaudible hiss wise. I ended up with a noise floor where I can't hear any hiss at all from drivers unless you put your ear up against the tweeter on the grille on all my speakers.

     

    It's tough because some pre's are also far too noisy to be ideal for use with any high sensitivity horn as well. Some people don't mind it (vintage gear) especially if they can't hear it when playing but it personally bothers me and IMHO a great system should be technically sound from a noise standpoint and not only sound good when playing.

     

    LS and KHorn are very similar, although my drivers are the gen prior to yours and equivalent to the LS II, but same sensitivity.

     

    For 2ch, the quietest SS integrated I have used so far is the McIntosh MA5200 which sounded both incredible and was dead quiet. The Bryston 135 performs similar as I have heard the power amp section used in that amplifier in another Bryston product.

     

    Overall I got the quietest noise floor, sound quality and dynamics with Bryston amps. For Heritage all you need is their "2" series amps like the 2.5b. I briefly had a 4BSST2 (300W/ch into 8ohm) in my system in 2ch which was dead quiet as well although I sold it when I went converted my system to multi-ch for mixed use.

     

    Their vintage amps are nice too. Even the old 60w/ch 2B-LP Pros would sound great with a LS. Well engineered and designed Class AB I find has the best traits of Class A and Class D.
     

    If you are into more of a warmer, more laidback sound then you might be more into something like a Luxman.

     

    If you wanna try something cheap, the Schitt Vidar II is really nice and is 100w/ch into 8 ohms stereo. Very quiet.

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1
  10. ~100W/ch Bryston Class AB and Heritage is an incredible combo. To date it's my favorite amp I have used for mixed movie/music listening at least in my main system.

     

    If you want that dead quiet background, lively, big dynamics with deep low end grip you honestly can't do better for the price. Far better value than McIntosh amps people buy for 2x the price. Pass Class A or Class AB is also an outstanding pairing but Bryston is also a better value for the buck there as well IMHO.

     

    There's a reason why Bryston amps are in major recording studios all over the world.

     

    Yes, high efficiency speakers can be driven with low watt amps, but not all watts are created equal and Bryston equipment runs DEAD quiet, this is critical for high sensitivity speakers. They don't cut corners, use very high quality power supplies and capacitors and their amps last forever.

     

    The 2.5 series or the 135 integrated you are looking at are the perfect amps for Heritage.

     

    Having all that current/power headroom does make a difference.

     

    I'd stay away from Crown class D anything unless it's being used for DSP/xover for a horn bass bin like in a underground Jub. For "normal" heritage, I found Crown sound to be shrill, harsh, sibilant and with underwhelming S/N and noise floor. My experience is with the newest XLS series.

    • Like 1
  11. I use a Vidar II on each of my Forte IV surrounds in bridged mono. They sound fantastic. Great tonal match for the Bryston I use for my other channels. Quick and tactile providing plenty of power for near full range surround reproduction.

     

    Schiit stuff is built really well and the quality/performance for the money is awfully hard to beat.

     

    They sound 100x better than the Crown XLS1002s I was temporarily running since the Bryston 2B-LPs I was using got burned out in a power surge. Need to get them both restored but I may just end up leaving the Vidar IIs in, I've been super happy with them.

     

    Had a Ragnorak as well about 6 years ago before I bought my current home or owned any Heritage speakers. That was a great amp as well.

     

    IMHO for Heritage Class AB is what you want if you like SS. Unless one likes more of a tubey sound then Class A is a bit more up your alley but Schitt doesn't make one and their AB amp isn't warm/laidback sounding. Class D just doesn't sound quite right at least in my experience on either the Heresy III or Forte IV. Never tried it on KHorns but have no interest, no matter how expensive or "high end" it is. For subs, class D is a different story though.

  12. Amazing what Chorus IIs go for now a days. HiFi isn't an investment but Heritage is almost an exception to that rule. Just legendary and many owners own their speakers from new for decades. Very few other speakers/component brands like this.

     

    A guy is selling a NIB pair of Chorus IIs on eBay for 8 grand. Insane. Especially Considering what a nice used Forte III can be had for but also an indictment of how beloved the Chorus II is.

  13. I only skimmed through this but honestly if you don't like the sound of the LS AL5s and/or they don't work well in your room you shouldn't force yourself to like them. One thing is genuinely liking something and its a another getting used to it or adapting to acceptance. When you make the kind of investment a pair of new AL5s cost you should be utmost satisfied, if you aren't especially after going through the many useful tips from some of the other members here, placement, electronic front end etc. than I would honestly return them especially since you seemed to be happy with the CW4s and enjoy those in your room. The room is a HUGE factor. Arguably the biggest for what speaker will work or won't.

     

    If the music isn't making you feel something either and you aren't getting into it or aren't being wowed by the sound at least once in awhile on amazing source material and all you can do is analyze/decide if you like what you are hearing then I'd get rid of them. Enjoy the CW4s or maybe try something like a JBL 4367 instead. Try a new SS integrated.

     

    Seems that some long time LS owners prefer the late model LS IIs and although I haven't heard them in person, the new AL5s appear to have a thicker midrange than can sound almost muffled at times combined with weak bass compared to the fuller response KHorn, CW and Fortes. I know I prefer the AK5 KHorn to the new AK6 model. Both in look and sound. The AK6 and AL5 have different drivers and crossovers with a new voicing. For 2ch the LS sounds best not too far away from a wall otherwise the bass in enemic. 1ft-2.5ft seems to work best on them.

     

    As others have said, you could have bad drivers for all you know. Generally though bad compression drivers are pretty easy to hear when they start to clip, distort, breakup, static pops etc. especially when amp/front end has been ruled out or they sound super rolled off. I will say as well that it took at least 500 hours of actual playtime before something like a new built LS or KHorn is truly broken in. The woofer loosens up and the compression drivers break in. They just do everything better.

     

    I personally don't subscribe to the trope of high efficiency horns, that you HAVE to use tube amps either. This is entirely dependent on the listeners sound signature preference and in large part what kind of music one likes.

     

    A nice mellow SET is all about the presence and immediacy with genres like Jazz or easy listening female vocals at modest volumes at best. You aren't gonna be able to blast some 80s new wave or some EDM banger on them, they will sound awful. SETs are more of a 1 trick pony amp with a very distinct sound and a seductive midrange for people that enjoy audiophile easy listening stuff most of the time. I honestly prefer my SS even for late night low volume Jazz sessions.

     

    Perhaps try some SS integrateds. Something like a Pass INT-60, McIntosh MA5300, Bryston B135³ or Accuphase E-380. Pass and Accuphase also have Class A integrated options as well. I can attest to all 4 of those brands sounding amazing with Heritage. The newer Mac amps no longer have that veiled, mushy sound anymore they sound 100x better than their old stuff. I ran the MA5200 with the KHorn for a couple years and it was the best integrated amp I had owned up to that point by a long shot. Heritage is very revealing with high quality amplification.

     

    Good luck and hope you truly find something that makes you happy with your system and sound. We've all been on that journey :)

    • Like 3
  14. Those are really nice. Fact you have the original documentation for them in such nice condition is also a great touch.

     

    Very neat depiction on them with a 3-channel stereo living room with a center Belle flanked by 2 cornerhorns.

     

    Like others have said these are cult classics and if you can find a way to hold on to them, I totally would. You might regret selling them someday!

     

    Best of luck!

  15. Just my 2 cents here being into HT for a long time. Here's a number of things to consider since you yourself mentioned you have been very content with a 2 sub 5.1 layout.

     

    IMHO I wouldn't even worry about Atmos If you can't do point source ceiling installed speakers. For the Reference line, the 5800s or RPC180s would be the way to go in your case running the flagships of the reference line but since ceiling is out of the question than your options are pretty limited.

     

    You have a really, really good 6ch system as it is.

     

    I've never been a fan of the "bouncy" reflection speakers at all and the effect they provide can be negligible especially in rooms with curved ceilings and even best case scenario rooms the effect is subtle to diffuse at best. A lot of what people hear is interaction with their mains and depending how good their surround speaker height and placement is to begin with.

     

    If you were just to add a pair for 5.1.2 (5.2.2 in your case) you'd ideally want the height channels roughly half way between your listening position, if not closer to your listening position. Or a reflecting speaker that you want to try angled to reflect down (if the ceilings cooperate) around that area which requires titling of the bouncey speakers or adjusting your mains to get it right. I wouldn't expect miracles or anything gamechanging compared to what you have now, which is already outstanding.

     

    Front high channels up high on the walls above the mains aren't what you want for Atmos but that works ok for DTS:X or Auro3D. Better for the latter than the former but not what you want at all for Atmos and Auro is a rapidly dying format at this point (Sorry Auro guys but it's the truth). Even DTS:X is in rapid decline as well and the only saving grace for it was the recent limited IMAX Enhanced partnership for demo like/nature UHD Blu-ray titles which are few and far in between. Dolby has monopolized all the studios for Atmos. So unless you have a good amount of the early 2018-2019 DTS:X UHD titles when Universal was making a big push with Xperi (DTS parent) to enjoy, then you really want a setup ideal for good Atmos playback if Atmos is the goal above all else.

     

    The last gen of A/V units of the early 2010s prior to Atmos had the final revision of Dolby Pro Logic II which was called "PLIIz" and supported extracting ambience for elevation channels... essentially "high" channels for the front or back above the mains or rears high up on the walls (not the ceilings). DTS' version of that was called "Neo:X". They actually did a nice job of adding an elevation element especially for people that couldn't have their surrounds high enough above ear level. Both upmixers were retooled for the "3D" codecs circa 2014/2015 in Dolby DSU upmixer and DTS Neural:X respectively. The Monoprice Atmos Pre-Pro had a good section from my recollection in its manual about a jack of all trades but master of none speaker layout for "good enough" coverage of Atmos that can handle the other 2 dying 3D formats fine.

     

    Another important overlooked factor is ideal surround speaker placement, particularly the surround pair or pairs, depending on if the "2D" plane is a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1ch layout  -- which as-is can reproduce much of the elevation and height cues in the channel based mixes of major motion pictures. Especially anything made pre-Atmos as well, and even Atmos titles the height effects just go to the nearest adjacent speaker (on non-Atmos systems) of the highest channel based substream the system can support, the 6ch version in your case.

     

    The key to retrieving and getting this is speaker placement for the surrounds (Atmos system or not), you ideally want them at least 1ft - 2ft above your ear level at the MLP for most HT rooms and them being roughly the same height above the front channels. For 5.1 I always liked 115/120 degrees for a single surround pair, toed in towards the MLP to get good "phantom 6.1" rear imaging for common panned L/R surround effects.

     

    With the surrounds at the adequate height it will provide fantastic up/down coverage and things like sound effects and flyovers sound like they're going right over your head as it pans from front to back depending on the onscreen action without Atmos needed. Just look at the height of surround arrays in commercial theaters, they are up at least half way up the walls and back angled slightly towards the audience. For whatever reason in home theater this was always overlooked even by a lot of "experts" with many people putting their surrounds at or even just below ear level and below the front channels and the result is a lot of the elevation ambience/reverb component gets lost in translation.

     

    Lastly just a reminder that the Atmos titles you see on music streaming services are lossy and pretty intensively normalized Dolby Digital Plus encoded tracks and they are back compatible with conventional 5.1. Infact, the DD+ codec streaming Atmos variety uses, both music and movies has a 5.1ch substream that contains the entire mix just in a conventional 5.1 presentation with the Atmos extension ignored. Some people love the Atmos music, others don't care much for it. I've heard a good amount at friends houses with good systems and honestly I only felt like a handful were particularly interesting. Mostly generic/odd experimental stuff. Many of the oldest Atmos music titles were haphazardly automatically upmixed in a huge Dolby marketing campaign push and often have awkward forced panning sort of like the wonkiness or early Quad titles in the 70s. Each to their own really, but I've heard far better 5.1/conventional surround mixed albums on SACD or DVD-A and unlike streaming Atmos is lossless with MUCH better dynamic range and fidelity.

     

    I would stick with channel based audio unless you go for the ceiling speakers. The reflection speakers won't blow you away and running just a pair of front highs, even assigned as such in the processor won't revolutionize your HT listening experience. In a minimalist Atmos system, the most effective use of the 2 extra channels are as a top middle pair essentially above or just infront of the MLP, for 5.1.2 or 7.1.2. In that case then yes, the Atmos makes a decent difference for discretely panned overhead effects.

     

    Hope that helped you out and anyone else reading that has Atmos fomo or upgraditis.

     

    Six

    • Like 1
  16. On 6/23/2023 at 5:35 PM, Ceptorman said:

    Why would Klipsch be liable for a blown driver from an electrical surge?

     

    I never said they were liable in anyway at all which is why I purchased new drivers instead of going through warranty. I even said I blamed myself for not running a surge protector on that amp and that Klipsch only would have replaced the bad 702 driver (and rightfully so). So since I didn't want to have uneven broken in mid/hi horns, I ordered the kit to replace both horns in the pair.

     

    Not sure how you inferred that I ever said they were liable for what occurred at all. I clearly said the problem only occurred after an amp blew. It's just rather curious the nature of the defect that happened to the driver was identical to the OPs who did not have an amp/electrical related issue and his was like that new.

     

    Going just off rated specs verbatim the fact that it blew the driver (or partially blew it) means at one point the 702 received better than 100W sustained for long enough to damage both the amp and the driver. The loud percussive pink noise like sound when the amp blew was only a second or so long after which it stopped outputting sound.

     

    First time I ever had a driver or amp blow up on me and I've had 10s of power surges over the 2 decades I've been into the hobby. Many of those years with Klipsch speakers serving me reliably and well and this incident doesn't change how I feel about that one bit.

    • Like 1
  17. I had the SAME exact problem the OP described on one of my Forte IV's as well. Noticeable on certain piano hits and sine wave like sounds mostly, an obvious shrill distortion of the driver with a slight static to it. Layer sounds, voices and pink noise do not trigger the issue. It's a very specific frequency and sound type where the distortion occurs and is VERY audible.

     

    Except in my case it was fine for the first 5-6 months and about a week after a thunderstorm which caused a power outage, one of the Class AB Bryston 2B-LP pro amps I was using in bridged mono, 1 for each of my Forte IV's blew up and had a brief loud static sound and the sound cutout after that.

     

    Swapped in a pair of Crown XLS 1002's I had in storage for a few years on both Forte IV's which didn't sound nearly as good but sound was back for a couple weeks. The other Forte was perfect but afterwards the left side one had the distortion exactly like the OP stated. It got better when I later replaced the XLS' which were temporary with Schiit Vidar IIs as Bryston's USA repair facility was shutdown and I haven't got around to sending both for a full restoration to them in Canada. But the Vidar is everybit as good as the late model 2B-LPs with XLR inputs and detachable power cables I was using. Sonically a seamless match for the 9BSST2 powering my other 4 channels. So I may just leave the Vidar in there even after the 2B-LPs get restored.

     

    I partially blame myself for not having surge protection for the 2 amps that run those Forte's which sit on the lower shelf of each stand they're on but the peak output of that loud brief noise when the amp blew up couldn't have been more than 60-100 watts tops. Well within the rated peak input of the Forte but compression drivers are fragile to snafus like that. I wouldn't be the first to blow up a driver lol. First time in 20+ years I ever had an amp suddenly and spectacularly blow up on me like that. So whether it was a coincidental driver defect occurring with the amp failure, a combination of both or entirely because of the amp I'll never know. The OP's case leads me to believe that 702 driver is perhaps not quite as robust as it could be. Although my KHorns arrived years ago with one of them having a busted K77D which I presume the internal magnet/voicecoil was damaged during shipping. Klipsch sent me a new 77D for it and they've been singing ever since. Major PIA getting in there though, changing a Forte driver is way easier.

     

    Just glad to see replacing the 702 midrange solved the OPs issue which was identical to mine. It sounded like the midrange horn driver anyway. Ironically before I saw this I just ended up ordering the III to IV upgrade kit, 2 of them so I can just replace both mid/hi drivers on both of my Forte IV's for peace of mind so they break in from new identically again. Thankfully the woofers and passive radiators are perfect. Klipsch would have only replaced the defective driver.

     

    I wonder if anyone else had had their 702 midrange go bad as well but this is the only other thread I have seen on this. Glad I wasn't alone. The speaker sounds and looks phenomenal otherwise. I felt it was the best overall speaker value/performance wise of the updated Heritage models with the new drivers, phase plugs and crossovers. But after the 2022 price hike the Cornwall is the better deal. I only needed Forte's though for my room and that was that.

     

    Six

  18. On 5/1/2023 at 10:33 PM, OO1 said:

    the more recent is the K-77M  from the 80s /square magnet is Ferrite  , the Round magnet K-77  is Alnico from the 70's and  should sound better ,  not only was the magnet material  better  but   the  late 70's Alnico K-77 diaphragms were the highest quality EV made ,

     

    some Round magnet K-77 Alnico tweeters even have copper Beryllium leads which allowed the tweeter to play at higher frequencies as well as higher power levels without auto-destroying . 

     

    How do the K-77Ds in the AK5 and LSII's compare the 77M or Alnico round 77s?

     

    The high frequencies on my 77Ds are phenomenal. Then again I never heard what the old school 77s sounded like as the first big Klipsch I owned and heard were the KHorn AK5s and I bought the sealed anniversary model.

     

    To this day I still haven't heard a speaker that can sound like a live concert, a commercial theater speaker or HiFi speaker all in one and excel at all 3 depending on electronic front end or source material. They're chameleons. 

     

    Old timers describe the older models of yesteryear that had the round EV Alnico tweeters has harsher and more of a PA live sound.

     

    From what I can gather it sounds like the 77Ds are the best tradeoff of old and new?

    • Like 1
  19. OP, no personal experience between any Crites stuff but between 2 La Scala's any of the smaller Heritage models, especially the Cornwall or Heresy would make a phenomenal center channel. The Forte is less ideal for this because of the rear passive radiator and less so the new Hersey with the rear port. The aforementioned classic Belle would be great as well if your LS' are vintage (20+ yrs old) since the Belle is lower profile depth wise and easier to integrate as a center channel.

     

    That said, the Hersey II/III or Cornwall III would be a really good match and both were the only purpose built center channel heritage speakers when they first came out between 2 KHorns. The new Hersey has the port and new drivers and the new Cornwall mumps horn so tonally Belle or previous Hersey, Cornwall or Pro Models would be your best bet.

     

    The Hersey has a similar bass extension to the La Scala (mid-high 50's Hz) so it would actually be a really good match in your case. The II or III especially since they're sealed and have tight, zippy bass.

     

    I have used a Hersey III 70th center between 2 70th KHorns for the better part of 4 years, vertically and now just recently horizontally and it's a fantastic tonal match with 57hz xover to the sub for movies and 55hz to the mains for music. My processor let's me change the bass management depending on movie or music listening automatically depending on incoming signal and DSP/listening mode.

     

    I briefly tried an RC-64 III which was absolutely terrible sounding compared to the Hersey III, muddy and veiled, lifeless by comparison and stuck out like a sore thumb between KHorn AK5.5s. I guess I've been spoiled by the air and dynamics of the KHorns that stand out, but it's clear they were voiced for the RF-7. Also didn't help that the RC-64 I had custom built by the Klipsch factory they didn't do a good job with the veneer which was a shame since the Aussie walnut custom Forte IV's they made for me were absolutely incredible and look just like my other 70th speakers. I guess singles are tough, but they looked nothing like the pair you can find on google they made a few years back that were done perfect.

     

    The La Scala, particularly the recent LSII and AL5 despite having the same top section as the KHorn AK5/AK5.5 and AK6 actually has a different tone to the midrange and low end. It's not just the lower bass extension that's different. The Paducah guys would agree. In fact an RC-64 III would match a lot better to a La Scala (II or AL5) then it would a recent KHorn and a handful of guys I've seen around here and elsewhere seem to do that. Classic LS's might be different though as Klipsch has made a lot of driver, horn and crossover changes over the last 50 years to the heritage line. The older LS's still had a lot more of their original PA application "grit" and the speaker has been tamed a lot since the early days.

     

    A 3rd La Scala center is really hard to do for most people, especially between toe'd in KHorns because of the depth on the La Scala makes it non-option for many people since it would stick out. But those that can make it work do seem to like it a lot, as do lucky owners of Belle centers between LS's or KHorns. In dedicated home theaters 3 LS' across the front for LCR where there are no furniture or room furnishing issues is a bit of a different story. From what I've heard with the Hersey though and the Cornwall being it's bigger brother, I would personally prefer a Cornwall between my KHorns if I had to pick, but each to their own.

     

    There is also something nice about supplementing the 2 horn bass units with one directly radiating bass unit that retains much of the same tonal character and "zip" to the sound. It actually compliments the bass horns really well when placement, crossover, amp/gear and subwoofer settings are dialed in based on my own experiences. But everyone has their own preferences.

     

    Belle, Heresy or Cornwall you can't go wrong with any of them. I personally think a Hersey II/III would do amazing in your setup due to a similar frequency response to the LS.

     

    Just my overall thoughts.

     

    Good luck!!

  20. Very nice. So the dialog lift option is not for phantom center but when the center channel speaker has to be placed a bit lower than what would be ideal. What that does is ever so slightly leak some center channel audio to the front L/R channels just enough that it has the effect of making the center channel appear to come from the screen or at the very least a good amount higher than it is currently. Works very well and most good processors have a function for this. Most use the leakage method others use DSP tricks with delay and EQ. The Phantom of course as the name implies is for sending the center channel equally to the front L/R in phase -3dB. And center channel audio will appear to come from right in between the 2 fronts just like any stereo music recording for sounds that are placed dead central like vocals. Biggest problem with phantom is if you move just a bit out of the sweetspot the effect is completely lost. Based on your pic, and the sofa listening area, if you toe'd in your mains just a hair right now you'd likely get excellent phantom center performance.

     

    That said, you may appreciate a discrete center especially with films that have a lot of hard pans and off axis audio. But as others have said a good sonic match is key. A center that is a poor match tone wise to the mains is a killer and will stick out like a sore thumb. Done well, a discrete center will add a sense of realism conveying the space in the recording nicely across the screen channels. Even in systems where phantom could work I have personally always preferred a discrete center no matter what. The center channel is the most important channel in cinema. Your setup is unique in that a phantom center could work really really well. Far better than most. If you go for it, you'll want something that is a perfect match for the Forte 1s or as close as possible that a bit of light EQ would get the ideal tonal match.

     

    You could get something like a KG or Academy center, place it on top of the console and have the TV sit on top of it. A good amount of people put their TV on top of their RC-64s too but those are larger.  You'd get to keep your clean and simple media console too that way. A Heresy II or similar may be best match wise but that'd have to be vertical and you'll need a new console or custom that allows it to sit that way, a bit of a tilt upwards would be perfect if a little lower than ideal effectively canceling out the need for any lifting DSP. Either way I wouldn't prioritize a console over the system unless there are other considerations, i.e. lifestyle, WAF etc.

     

     

    3 hours ago, wuzzzer said:

    I would go phantom versus trying to shoehorn a center into a limited space.

    Or, I'd get a different TV stand that allowed something like a Heresy or Quartet center.

     

    FWIW there are very few if any media consoles I am familiar with that have a middle vertical gap for a Hersey to stand in between, most are just horizontal shelving or large furniture piece that have a space for a "traditional" bespoke made for HT center channel like the mainstream Klipsch line has now. Something like traditional audio racks to the left/right would work but the top shelf would have to connect like a bridge for the TV. I couldn't find anything like that.

     

    I looked for something like this all over years ago when I was shopping a center for my KHorns. Wanted a LaScala or Cornwall but there was nothing like that unless custom, not even Heresy sized vertically. Eventually got the matching Heresy and it sits on the floor right in front with the angled base it works perfectly in my room. But would be a non-starter for a smaller room where the seating area is far closer to the screen and console like the OP's.

    • Like 1
  21. 3 hours ago, garyrc said:

    Maybe Micallef and Reichert should have reviewed the Klipschorn A6 for Stereophile.  At least they might have not raised up the Khorn on a dollyoutside in a driveway to measure it.

     

    I agree.

     

    That guy that did the KHorn AK6 "review" for them was a joke. Yeah let's put the biggest elitist measurements snob who has a bias against horns, perpetuates the same tired stereotypes about them and only listens to audiophile BS to review Klipsch's latest iteration of their timeless classic. Seems legit 🙄

    • Like 1
  22. Apples and oranges. The JBL is obviously a more technically sound loudspeaker but it has to be for the price and because it's a studio monitor. Literally a reference. Ideal for mid-sized control rooms or even HiFi if someone wants that dead on neutral sound. They sound great on pristine recordings like this but are not as forgiving with "normal" non audiophile stuff. Poorly recorded music (which let's be honest most stuff we like are) will sound terrible on them it will just make you want to listen to audiophile easy listening stuff all the time to admire the sound quality instead of music you actually enjoy and have an emotional connection to.

     

    The Cornwalls as their name implies actually sound better closer to the wall, the drivers and the whole sound just becomes more coherent as 1 unit closer to the wall and the low end disperses through the walls and the room better. They are more like a live event type sound, not neutral by any stretch but will do virtually anything well including HT.

     

    That is a terrible amp pairing for Cornwalls. Something like a MC152 or MA5300 would have been far better from McIntosh but I definitely prefer solid state with them for a weightier sound with more low end grip and less bloaty sluggish bass. Anything Class A or AB, Pass, Accuphase, Bryston etc. that's what you want for that energic, clean and clear sound.

     

    The new Mac stuff sounds soooo much better it's amazing. Mac's used to sound very warm and mushy just smothering detail. Their newer stuff, really anything made in the last 10-11 sounds completely different. I used the MA5200 for awhile in 2ch and it sounded amazing. Detailed, clean and energetic. I tried some of their older stuff from the 70s, 90s and early 2000s and it was terrible. Mushy, laidback and rolled off. But some people love that mushy warm sound. I just think their new stuff sounds 100x better, it's night and day in my experience. So their sound signature has changed quite a bit -- for the better. If you want that sound tube amps are 100% the way to go with a high quality SS pre.

    • Like 4
  23. Thanks looks fantastic! Congrats.

     

    Yup with that amount of toe in the center image should be quite strong, depending how far back you sit you may enjoy it for music in 2ch only. So you'll only really need the center for dialog in movies, as far apart as they are in your room you definitely don't wanna use phantom center for movies it would be an immersion killer a ft left or right of the sweetspot dialog will collapse from the center. If you are gonna run the Heresy like I do for center make sure it's high enough up. If you make a box in the cabinet for it to sit in, perhaps even give it a 1 to 1.5inch tilt upwards to compensate for it sitting just below your tv screen. Your listening position it will sound like its coming at the same height as the KHorns and you'll know it's perfect when you have L to R or R to L pans and swings with entertainment that are seamless. You'll know when it's dead on perfect. Nice thing about the Hersey or Cornwall is they aren't super deep so they won't stick out ahead of the KHorns. Granted that can be adjusted for with processor setup, time delay and speaker distance. My Heresy sticks out slightly forward of the inner toe in of the KHorn but aligns evenly with the outer angled edge of the KHorns forward and works great.

     

    As for your other questions sorry I didn't see that earlier. I'm actually not sure if the KHorn 70th Anniversary's are considered Tractrix or not. I'm not really an expert on horn/waveguide designs lol. I'm sure one of the guys here would know. They just have the standard Klipsch horn/wave guide design with the right angles, my Forte's for example have those fancy new flanges and curved shapes in their waveguide for the midrange but the timbre and tonal qualities of them are undeniably heritage.

     

    Good luck on the build out you are gonna be thrilled when it's all done. I for one can't wait to see how the build proceeds. Heritage Music and HT is the best :)

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