Mighty McIntosh

Update, September 12, 2020: SOLD. Update: Sale pending on U.S. Audio Mart.

And just canceled my order with Crutchfield. Found a pair of Heresies for $500 with free delivery, and decided to splurge.

Thank YO! Just purchased the RP-160M from Crutchfield for $397 with tax. You guys are, in the Klipsch tradition, highly efficient.

UPDATE: On Bill's recommendation, grabbed a pair of RP-160M on sale for $374. Looking for a 2-channel pair of speakers for my living room TV. Budget: prefer $200-$300, but willing to go to $400 max for exceptional value. Using a Sony STR-DH130 (100 WPC) SS receiver, which has surprisingly decent sound, but this is not an audiophile set up. I recently had my Klipsch Heresies in this role, and they set a standard I'm hoping to come as close as possible to: superb clarity, terrific detail, palpable but not overwhelming presence, good-enough bass. Now the Heresies are back upstairs with my McIntosh for music-only. I've had to put back my old Pro Media 2.1 with the TV, and by comparison it's like listening through a glorified boom box. Much of the clarity and most of the detail is veneered-over. Based on my reading so far, I would think (never having heard them) that the RB-5s would be ideal, but can only find one offering on eBay for over $400 w/shipping, and they don't have any grills (for living room, this is a problem). There's a pair in Garage Sale, but they're over 4 hours away, which is about 2 hours each way too many. (I'm in Western Massachusetts.) What do you recommend? I realize I'm not going to find Heresy-quality in my price range, but given that this is for HT use only, how close can I get?

Thank you. I've posted the sale in the Garage Sale section: ...In that post is the link to the U.S. Audio Mart listing.

I arrived at the price by looking up comparable sales: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649640031-klipschorn-speakers/ ($2,500 w/original crossovers) https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649606451-1979-klipsch-klipschorn-speakers-105db-efficient-speakers-consecutive-serial-numbers-all-original/ (sold at $2,800 w/original crossovers) https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649527711-klipsch-klipschorns-khorn-klipschorn/ ($2,500) On eBay, I found two listings for 1970s Khorns for $3,500 and $4,250, respectively. The speakers are in good condition; not very good, and not fair (using U.S. Audio Mart's guidelines). If there is some other consideration that I am not taking account of, please let me know.

UPDATE: These speakers are under deposit. If/When sale is complete, I will mark them "sold." I have just listed my Klipschorns on U.S. Audio Mart: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649648153-1976-klipsch-klipschorn-speakers-consecutive-serial-s-brand-new-type-aa-crossovers-tweeters-and-squa/ -- see that listing for details and pictures. In that listing, I offer to replace, as needed, any tweeter and/or squawker driver(s) that may be worn out (though all the drivers sound to me like they're working fine). But instead of this modest guarantee (worth no more than $210 to replace with same from CritesSpeakers.com), as a gesture of my appreciation to the members of this forum, I am instead offering a 15% discount off the top of the asking price of $2,875: that works out to $2,443.75 for Klipschorn speakers (must have already been a member of this forum as of this past Thursday, 8/20/2020). Pick up only. I live in Easthampton, Massachusetts. PM me if interested.

Well, my father still loves me, but I sense many of you are disappointed in me. I hang my head in Heretical shame. You guys have been very helpful, so you will have first crack at these Klipschorns. In the next few days I will list them for sale, probably on U.S. Audio Mart and possibly Craigslist. I've looked up recent sales of Khorns of 1970s vintage. The prices on eBay ($3,500 and up) seem a little high. On U.S. Audio Mart a 1979 pair with consecutive serials and all original parts, condition rating 7 of 10, just sold in April for $2,800. Because I've just added new Crites AA crossovers, I am going to list my 1976 pair (serials 8P392, 8P393) for $2,900. I am going to guarantee to the buyer that the K-55-V and K-77 diaphragms are functioning reasonably up to spec given their age, and if the buyer sends me evidence (e.g. tests) that shows any of them are substandard, I myself will purchase, as needed, one, two, three, or four new diaphragms (same model) from Bob Crites (up to $120 plus $90, if all four), and have them shipped directly to the buyer. But I'm not offering that to you. Instead, as a gesture of my appreciation, to anyone who is already (as of this post) a member of this forum, I will simply take 15% ($435) off up front: Klipschorns for $2,465. Obviously, this is going to be a pick-up-only sale. I live in Easthampton, Massachusetts.

(P.S. It is not lost on me that preferring the Klipsch Heresy to the Klipschorn is -- heresy.)

...

The more research I do, the more convinced I am that (a) in a suitable room I would love the Klipschorns and be a devotee, and (b) I don't have a suitable room, which is ruining the Klipschorn sound. Time and again I read posts that either extol or lambaste the midrange of vintage Klipsch speakers. In my Heresies I love the forwardness; the music sounds live rather than recessed. In the Khorns (which I believe are functioning perfectly well) the forwardness -- in my room -- is maniacal. When I listen to the Khorns, I feel on edge. When I listen to the Heresies, my whole body both relaxes and perks up, and I become absorbed in the thrill and emotion of the music. (Talk about psycho-acoustics! And I'm a therapist.) I've been reflecting on the excitement I felt when my father offered me these Khorns. On the one hand, it felt good to be given an heirloom, and stereo sound has been a warm father-son theme for me. The selfish part of me, though, thought: Oh, man! The Klipschorns will be just like the Heresies, only BIGGER, and with that last measure of missing bass! Having recently hooked the Heresies back up to my primary system in place of the Khorns, I am appreciating them anew. My relationship with the Klipsch Heresy was love at first listen, and back in the early 1980s I manipulated family and friends into contributing enough for me to buy them for me for my birthday. The fact is, I now realize that my listening hopes for the Khorns were simple: I just hoped they would be as good as my Heresies with full bass extension. Alas, in the house I have, the Khorns are not at all as good as the Heresies. The Heresies are tight and musical, with a surprisingly vivid soundstage. The Khorns (in such a cramped and reflective environment) are all over the place. By way of analogy (if you're a cat lover): it is brash but endearing for a pet house cat to jump up on a table; it's an out-of-control mess when a pet cheetah jumps onto the table (as in a scene from the film Duma). I am going to sell the Klipschorns. I have discussed this with my father, who is completely understanding. His hope now is that I can sell the Khorns and get myself a speaker system that I will really love. What I will love is my Heresies with more bass extension, which, I have recently learned, is a dream that can become true by adding good subwoofers. (So far looking at the Rythmik L12, or possibly SVS SB-1000.) So, finally, I turn to you, the Klipsch hive-mind, for advice on selling them. There are pics of them in the OP, and the only difference between the condition shown in those photos and now is that both speakers now have brand new Crites AA crossovers. How much should I ask for? Where should I try to sell them (eBay, Craigslist, AudioMart...)? Is anyone here interested in them? (I live in the Pioneer Valley, Western Massachusetts.)...

I looked up what L-pads are, and I am intrigued, b/c it looks like these regulate -- impedance? -- do I have that right? One measure so far that made a significant impact was changing from 4 ohms to the 8 ohm taps: BIG improvement from washy to focused sound. Is it possible L-pads could tame mid frequencies in the 1500-4000 Hz range?

I am smelling defeat. I experimented with some sound absorption panels, blankets and triple-layer curtains. The effect on the resonance in the room was definitely noticeable, but... how can I put it? -- the essential problem remained: at the safe-loud volume I'm accustomed to, the upper midrange is uncomfortable for my ears, making the speakers unpleasant and fatiguing to listen to. To the experimental room treatments I tried adding equalization remedies, such as decreasing midrange frequencies to a greater or lesser extent (typically 2.5 or 3 Db). With enough EQ to tame the midrange, the music sounded EQ'd, a definite degradation of the sound quality. The reproduction quality of the midrange sounds accurate to me; I doubt there is any problem with the drivers -- unless there is such a driver problem as unbalanced forwardness. I have faith that what sounds to me like "unbalanced forwardness" is not the fault of the crossovers, b/c they are brand new AA's from Bob Crites. This mid-forwardness impressionistically (by no means scientifically) feels related to a more subtle, nagging issue that persists: the KHorns -- in my small room -- don't quite sound musical. I'm aware that I'm hearing gigantic, awesome sounds in the bass, mid and treble, but there's some kind of missing cohesion, despite all the notes sounding perfectly in place. Noticing this reminded me of Artto's post: Having tried the KHorns in my room for the past month, I brought the Heresies back upstairs, pulled the KHorns out of their corners, and hooked up the Heresies in their place. For one thing, I wanted to make sure the problem isn't simply that my hearing has suddenly changed and that all the problems I've been hearing are literally in my head. My hearing is still fine. The Heresies sounded wonderful. Smoother, beautiful detail. Through the KHorns I could make out all the details with perhaps even finer resolution than in the Heresies, but I had to listen for them; through the Heresies all the details were just there, all together, in one coherent, thrilling musical picture. I was even hearing some of the resonance of room with the Heresies that has been so prominent with the KHorns, but with the smaller Klipsch speakers those resonances were here-and-there peaks rather than stressful constants. The Heresies sound like they fit in the room. The constituent sounds played by the Klipschorns in my 10x15 den seem like they just don't have enough room to "marry" (to borrow a cooking term). This is something Chris A. told me so at the outset: I am on the brink of accepting that I might not be able (without selling my house) to keep the Klipschorns in my stereo system as a second heirloom to join the McIntosh 240 my father gave me when I was teenager, and which I still have, and will listen to until I'm deaf or dead. If there is another measure that can be taken with a realistic hope for (what increasingly seems like a miracle of) beautiful Klipschorn sound in this little room, by all means lay it on me. If, however, as Chris A. suggested -- -- I turn my thoughts toward selling the KHorns and replacing them, I have other questions to put to the group about options. First of all, I would want to replace the KHorns rather than simply putting the Heresies back as is. Before getting the KHorns I was already yearning for more bass extension. So one question is: replace the KHorns with a new/used pair of speakers -- -- or replace them with the Heresies somehow augmented -- for example with one or two subs -- e.g. Vandersteen 2wq? (Remember, I'm satisfied with everything about the Heresies except their bass extension.) In either case, my budget for KHorn replacement would be strictly limited to whatever I can get for the KHorns with their new crossovers. My quick preliminary search turned up two recent sales of mid-1970s KHorns (mine are 1976), one pair for about $3,500 and one pair for I think $4,250. Please let me know what you think the market is like for these big beauties nowadays. And, again, if you think there's something else to try, I have a little game left in me.

Maybe someday I'll have a bigger room, but for now the Klipschorns sing (or bellow) just fine: the sound quality is excellent if (probably) far from ideal, better for some kinds of music (Melody Gardot sounded like she was five feet from me). All I want now is for my ears not to be boxed by trumpets and violins. Those high-midrange frequencies are still causing pain and fatigue. I tried wrapping one of the squawkers with rope caulk (Mortite). I figured this would be a cheap experiment. And it was a quick one. Totally deadened the midrange, which sounded like it was being smothered by a pillow. Completely canceled all sonic air and space, and didn't help the upper midrange hyper-resonance one bit. Removed it immediately. So, I think the next intervention up is something that many have already recommended: adding sound absorption to the room. Two things have deterred me from pursuing this: Unlike rope caulk, sound panels are expensive. It therefore makes sense to experiment with materials at hand before committing to a purchase -- as recommended, for example by D Jenson: "You may want to experiment with blankets and rugs to see if you find improvements. If you like what you hear, you can get 'real' treatments." -- But I find myself utterly stupefied: How can I place blankets and rugs over the early reflection points on my walls and ceilings? How have others done homemade tests of sound absorption on their walls and ceilings? For room treatments, D Jenson mentioned Auralex, which would appear to cost hundreds of dollars. Are there other more economical yet effective possibilities? Any guidance will be much appreciated.

Read somewhere in here—something like, the Khorns were efficient enough for 4 ohms, and to try that first.

FIXED IT. Remember when, in the OP, I wrote: Well, today I switched to the 8 ohm taps, just to see if it would change the sound. Oh, my God. Totally different. I hadn't realized until listening at 8 ohms that I haven't been hearing what I'm accustomed to hearing from the McIntosh amp—the gravitas, the Luke Cage–like punch, the darkly romantic almost sinister, Wuthering Heights–like tonality surrounding the bell-clear details. It's all back, and more so. The Khorns play the McIntosh 240's qualities more gloriously than ever before. As of this writing, I've been listening, enrapt, for hours. All the detail, the high resolution that I'd had with the Heresies is now coming out of the Klipschorns with even more presence. The bass, midrange and treble frequencies sound much better integrated, smoother. (Thanks to the new Crites' AA crossovers, I suspect.) The midrange is still pushy and brassy, but now this sounds like a characteristic of the speakers rather than like something is broken. I've picked up the cues having to do with taming the mids: I use the Amarra player, and also have Amarra's EQ module. With some experimenting I arrived at these settings: The -2.5 Db reduction centered on 1995 Hz takes out much of the brassiness, while the increases at 4000, 6250 & 8000 Hz serve to restore specific frequencies at which I have some hearing loss. (With the Heresies and Music Hall Marimbas I typically set these freqs 2-3 times higher: 3 Db, 4 Db, and 2 Db, respectively.) It would still be nice to reduce what sounds like over-resonance in the mids and highs. My reading in this forum suggests trying wrapping the horns (e.g. with Noico Sound Deadener). Interested in your thoughts on this. Your collective thoughts so far have helped initiate me into the Realm of Klipschorn. Thank you.

D'oh! Points well taken, triceratops.

I've been saying harsh "top end," but I've forgotten how subjectively "high" pitched the upper reaches of the midrange sound. On ALK's "Super X" web page, I found this graph: ...And based on this, I listened to a 2kHz tone on YouTube, to see if that was near the frequency that was hurting my ears. It very well might be: 2kHz was more "top end" than I expected. (I am still clinging to the ridiculous notion that my hearing is 20-20k, a fantasy which I attribute to the psychological fear of growing old and dying.) I will test this hypothesis more carefully by playing various tones through the Khorns to see at what frequencies they sound most bothersome. One question I have about a potential ALK upgrade is, would I send ALK the new crossovers that I just bought from Bob Crites, or would I send the old crossovers? The ALK upgrade... And my question about whether I can try the k52k driver in the Khorn's k400 squawker horn still stands.

Alas, I finally opened the back of one of the Heresies, which I got in the early '80s, and the squawker driver is a k52k. Can I attach that to the Khorn without blowing something up?

Good logic. The squawker magnet on the other speaker (the one I didn't photograph from the rear) is even rustier. I will check in with Bob about this. The MC240 was serviced by Mike Urban at his Vintage HiFi Museum. Specifically: And Mike's partner-in-tubes, Bob Pienkowski, serviced the Counterpoint pre-amp at the same time. Nevertheless I like the idea of testing the Khorns with a different amp, which I have -- another tube amp (a good quality modern one) that I bought from the Vintage HiFi Museum.

Thank you all for your responses -- very helpful, particularly suggestion to contact Bob Crites, and the link to https://www.gikacoustics.com/early-reflection-points/. The caps were indeed "done." I have replaced the crossovers (Crites, type AA). Much better just doing that. Below I will paste in my listening notes of each individual speaker with the old crossovers; most of those problems are now gone. I have yet to do a second extensive listening test, but the one thing I'm still noticing is over-resonant ear-piercing highs, especially on violins and flutes, less so on piano (I listen mostly to classical). The speakers are still not sealed in the corners. Pipe insulation arrived just today, and radiator will be removed next Friday. I'm wondering how improvement in low freq might affect high freqs. My current suspect List for piercing HF: Exaggerated highs due to bass frequencies not yet being optimized with corner-sealing; i.e. highs might improve by default when bass is more focused? Room problems: low ceiling, early reflections Unwrapped squawkers & tweeters Possible reverb with Mc240 Amp? Other suspect(s) that I don't know about yet, but you might? After I get the Khorns properly in their corners, what do you think would make the most/easiest progress toward alleviating piercing violin highs? Here are my listening notes for the Khorns with old crossovers. Like I said, most of the following problems have vanished with the replacements from Bob Crites.

UPDATE as of August 1, 2020 — WHAT'S WORKED SO FAR: I have replaced both crossovers, care of Bob Crites. Instant improvement, but still didn't sound right. Then I switched from the 4 ohm taps to the 8 ohm, which changed the sound utterly (see my June 27th post). I have just ordered some sound absorption panels for the ceiling (12 square feet, to start), and some Nicetown Sound Absorbing Curtains (the ones with inner felt lining). I'll report on the effectiveness of these after I install and test them. ___________________ [ORIGINAL POST:] I have been given a pair of 1976 Khorns by my father. I can tell that they will sound out of this world, especially (I hope) paired with my McIntosh 240 (also from dad, 45 years ago). But initially, upon setting them up, the high and possibly the middle frequencies are washy, messy, and shrill -- painful to hear (at least at loud-but-not-harmful volume). The Khorns are replacing my Heresies, which had none of these problems with the same configuration (same components and inputs). I've done a little reading on this forum, particularly here: and here: ...and these posts have helped me suspect a few issues with my set up. (Also, see pics.) My room is small: 15'x10', with a 7'-6" ceiling and four windows. No option to change rooms. ("SWMBO" and I have a small house, causing me almost to say No, thank you, to the offer of free Khorns. Then I slapped myself and said, Yes, thank you, O mighty father; I will make it work.) There are plenty of reflective surfaces: hardwood floor, plaster walls, windows, a few hanging framed (mix of glass and plexiglass) posters. There is hardly any unobstructed wall space. Can't help this, as this is my home office, and I work in it professionally (nowadays full-time). The Mc240 is right next to the right Khorn (with restricted options to move it). Next to the Mc240 is the tube preamp, a Counterpoint SA 3.1 (actually paid my own money for it, used). I don't understand any of the technical specifications that Chris A cites in his discussion on different amps with Khorns. I do understand what a reverb effect is. But details elude me: Is the Mc240 Class A or Class Z? High or low output impedance? Is its "first watt power" more than, less than, or equal to 1 watt?... If the "Com" speaker terminal on the Mc240 (manual says "Com" = Common) corresponds to the black Khorn terminal, then I got the polarities right. I am currently using the 4 ohm terminals, and haven't yet tried 8 or 16. As you can see in one of the photos, the left Khorn is currently cornered between a wall to the left, and a steam radiator to the right (you can see it peeking out). I will remedy this by removing the radiator. I also plan on sealing the Khorns into their corners with closed-cell foam. Funds are limited. High effectiveness-value-to-lowest-cost ratio needed. I would love some suggestions. My goals are modest. I'm already happy with the bass extension, and I can tell that if I remove the radiator, it will deepen, and I have faith that sealing the corners will tighten the bass. If I can eliminate the audible distortion and get as much detail as the Heresies gave, I will be ecstatic. I've read about remedies such as wrapping the upper horns in (something...?), and/or adding sound diffusing or absorbing panels in specific places, that can help clean up the sound, but I don't know what materials these remedies would involve. I'm handy with a screwdriver and wire strippers, but my skills end there. (I've dabbled with hammer and nails, and even used a staple gun once!) Good karma in advance to any who can give aid to this worthy cause.