boleiro
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Posts posted by boleiro
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wanted to check in with an update... finally got those polyester caps in the correct values and installed on homebrew type AA crossovers. The difference was very apparent right away. But it took awhile to start processing what the differences were that I was hearing from the ALK universal XO's. And now it's impossible not to hear the difference between the two. I have gone back and forth twice between the two and its amazing how subtle, and yet striking, the difference is.
The ALK's are more transparent than the AA's with a very clear top end and mid section. The AA's seem to me to be a more lively feel to them, more of the band in the room thing. They were warmer, and though a little less articulate than the ALK's, the AA's just have a very pleasant and fun sound. And I swear the AA's gave more bass... though maybe thats just me. The ALK's were very articulate and clear.
The differences between the two remind me of my experience rolling 12AX7 driver tubes in my integrated amp recently. The AA's are like the Mullards, warm and luscious and the ALK's are more like the Telefunken's with a sweet clear tone.
I guess the AA's ended up being just what I hoped they would be... kind of more of that vintage hifi thing compared to the ALK's. But there is no clear winner... really like them both for different reasons and my favorite XO's are the one ones I'm listening to at the time. I guess I'll go back and forth for awhile, happily.
Might start looking at the tweeter upgrade now... never ending.
thanks for all the help!
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21 hours ago, KT88 said:
Do you mean that 2uF and 13 uF are not available (original values) or that even 2.2uF and 6.8uF (two in parallel) are not available? If the latter ones are to get, try them as I did with good success.
Hey KT88, you are correct... the poly 2uF and 13uF caps available from Jem are out of stock for the time being. I did end up ordering the same caps you referenced earlier in the thread, Nichicon 2.2uF and 2 x 6.uF Kemet poly caps. still need to wire up the AA xo's... been working hard to complete an outdoor pizza oven build before it gets too cold!
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thanks Rolox... I figured as much. I know it is odd to go from upgrade to stock. I guess it's hard for me to appreciate the upgrade since I only know the upgrade. I just have to know what stock sounds like.
I guess I'll update, but the source for the correct value poly caps is out of stock until late September, so I should have those on order soon.
I will for sure report back.
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On 8/11/2021 at 3:18 PM, jimjimbo said:
I have a few parts you need.
Hey Jimbo... do you happen to have any autotransformers? I need something for the T2A... ready to order the 3654 from crites but if you have a something of the like that will work in the AA xo's then I'd love to work a deal with you.
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4 hours ago, ricktate said:
It is definitely hooked to tweeter its the ground wire.
I use type A in my Scalas all stock drivers.
use type A with 4500hz mod and crites early tweeter on my K=horns to take load off mid drive. Love them both.
I had built ALKs a long time ago didn't really think they worth all the money spent on parts. I sold them if anyone has them my name is on bottom of them.
So I wold recoment type A with caps from Crites or JEM...but i noticed his are on high side.
I see that now... have been looking at blown up pics of this XO and can see it now. so it looks like I can use a bare solid 20ish awg wire to connect the negative terminals with the wire going under the positive leads.... right?
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5 hours ago, henry4841 said:
Lots of discussions and in depth sound perceptions from those that have done some changing around. Played around with many different X-overs years ago and to be honest the differences between the ALK and A or AA is subtle at best. A small change in volume level can change anyone's opinion of which is better. In other words a volume increase comparing two electronic audio components can deceive you. For me doing away with the autotransformer and building a simple 1st order crossover network using resistors for attenuation sound best to me but that is another story. After experimenting with over 30 different X-over combinations I settled on the AA as being good enough even with the autotransformer. And and keeps my LaScala's stock making them easier to sell for my kids when the time comes.
The OP says he does not listen loud so I honestly think he will be fine using the A network. If one likes the sound and something happens to the tweeters just replace them with ones that are not delicate like the stock ones. I like simple circuits and the A certainly fits the bill.
as I've said I really like the ALK's with my LS's. I'm just very curious about the more stock sound. I've got all my components for the AA's... just need to get the time to sit down and do some soldering. Excited to hear the (subtle) difference in sound with the AA xo's. I'll probably end up modding them to try the type A too.
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that's great... I'll pay shipping!
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See the wire in the pic below that is wired to the input #1 terminal through the Squawker terminals... doesn't look like as though it is hooked up to the tweeter terminals. I noticed here and looked around and see that it is on pretty much all Type AA XO's.
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Another question about the XO's... never noticed until now that the terminal strip has a bare wire that daisy chained to all of the terminals. Why is this?
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thanks Hanks!
we'll I already ordered the .4mh inductors so I guess I will give it a try if the midrange is too much.
thanks again!
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I'm kind of feel his pain. But then again, no one ever gave me any nice tubes for my amps so ce la vie!
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19 minutes ago, DirtyErnie said:
Might not be a bad take in the JJs, but for us they were 'vanilla' on everything. All the other new tubes we tried were very much one-trick-ponies. The Gold-pins were better, and I always got mine from Eurotubes.
Hey Ernie, I get that... in your scenario I could see the JJ's working out great. In my personal system, I am getting to the point that I want different tubes for different music I listen to... one trick ponies indeed. And I look a lot of the tricks!
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Got all my Caps... thanks KT88. I ordered the same caps you mentioned.
However, I have 2 copies of the TYPE AA schematic but there is a difference between the two. One has a .4mh inductor on the squawker and the other doesn't. The drawings are identical except for this one detail (and the zener's). Should the AA have a .4mh inductor or not?
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1 hour ago, DirtyErnie said:
Did a lot of tube-rolling for a recording project. Those IEC Mullards were beautiful, but in a pipe & smoking jacket sort of way. Not the sound we wanted for a vocal mic with high-brow pop music.
The ECC83s absolutely NAILED the early Black Sabbath tone in a MESA TriAxis. I'm sure they were whatever amp Tommy was using.
Ultimately, we ended up with JJ Gold-pins in nearly everything; they covered the most ground consistently.
But that's not Hi-Fi. 🤡
This is a very good way to explain initial reaction to the mullard. Loves the sound, but was too keyed on the differences from the amperex to fully enjoy. I will definitely be spending a few weeks listening to the mullard to be sure I am being as objective as possible.
I’m no tube snob, only recently got into NOS, but I have never had luck with the JJs in any application, guitar or hifi. They aren’t bad, just very good and always leave me wanting more.
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Interesting… Everyone is hitting on something here. I have a black plate RCA 5751 in a guitar amp with some matsushita 12AX7. I’ll pull those and listen for differences.
schu, you’re making me ask existential questions I don’t know I want the answers too…. So I prefer a mite solid state sound to warm fuzzy tubiness? Wjat 12ax7 gives you what you’re looking for in a tube amp Schu?
I need to listen to the IEC Millard for a while. The one issue with my test is that I have been listening to the amperex for a few weeks now and only heard the mullard in the comparison. Not the best format for an objective comparison.
I’ll add the 5751 and matsushita to the mix also.
But to the original question, will a Telefunken give more of the same of the amperex… detailed, clean and flat? I would like that if it came with some warmth?
and yes, I will be trying out a tele but waiting to find one that won’t break the bank. But it will happen. In the meantime, interested in your experiences.
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I tend to be a skeptic when it comes to a lot of "upgrades." But, I had a very cool listening experience last night while comparing some 12AX7's... I actually was able to hear the differences... distinctly!
I was comparing an IEC branded Mullard and a Fisher Branded Amperex. The Mullard is great, and part of me preferred the warmer, more relaxing sound. This is the sound I have typically sought after. However, listening to to the Amperex was just a different experience all together. Across the board, the Amperex had more clarity and detail yet still "smooth." I love it. It's just a fun listening experience hearing all the instruments so clearly. Loved the mullard... just like the Amperex more.
Here's the rub, when I ordered the Amperex, I mistakenly thought the Fisher 'Made in Holland' was a Telefunken. It wasn't until after that I learned the Fisher tube is an Amperex, not Telefunken. So, now I am wondering how a Fisher branded Telefunken would compare to the Amperex? Could I expect a dramatic difference or just incremental gains with the Tele? Very happy with the amperex, but never leaving well enough alone, I want to try a Telefunken 12AX7 to hear for myself.
Would love to hear what others have experienced between the 2? I should note that I am not able or willing, at this time, to go all in with a tele branded NOS tube. I would be looking to pickup a Fisher branded Telefunken to maybe keep the comparison honest.
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The plan is to build up a pair pair of Type AA's, so whatever parts you may have I'll take. A complete working pair of Type AA's Ideally! however, if you have some T2A's, 0.4mh Inductors, XO board, label, whatever.
Thank you!
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On 8/7/2021 at 10:15 PM, karlson3 said:
Re: DE-120 - is there a little cheap plastic K77/T35 horn to fit that driver?
Here's an A configured network battery biassed before mounting the 9v battery holder. IIRC DJK (R.I.P.) said the AA tweeter section could be converted into an "Acoustic Butterworth" with a 1uF cap spanning its two caps.
Hey Karlson, are those russian PIO caps?
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wow... I am all over the place! Lots of great ideas have come from this conversation. I have changed my mind more than a few times already. But as per usual, I feel I have received some great advice and options on how best to proceed. I think I'm set now set on a smart path. I'll build up a pair of AA's. I already have most of the Inductors needed, just need to buy the caps and a 245uh inductor. I'll go with modest caps for now and see how the AA stands up to the ALK. Once I decide on the XO I'll be getting a pair of the SMAHL V2's and compare to the K77. And then by then I am sure I will have more ideas from reading too much on this board.
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4 hours ago, KT88 said:
It's just my two cents. I bought the ALK universal network 16 years ago for my 1977 Lascala. I was not satisfied with it. It sounded "clean" but not so musical, I could hear the tweeter separately from the midrange when there was pink noise. Then I bought the AA network from Crites, which can be plugged into Type A. I like AA better, A was good on a 300B and a Leak Stereo20. But AA gives more definition. A is warm but AA gives me more speech intelligibility without sounding "cold" like ALK Universal does to my ears.
AA definitely sounds best on my MC275.
A is for low volumes, AA for soft to adequate volumes. The coherence is fantastic with AA.
About the tweeter, I had a CT125, that was more "hifi" sound. But the K77 does a much better job of a "unified voice". It's less hifi but more Klipsch with great timing and authority of sound, even if the K77 hisses a bit depending on the recording, I won't change it. I cannot speak about the newer iterations of tweeters mentioned here but if I were you I would build up everything Xover etc. before I would change the in my view excellent matching original tweeter. BTW Polyester caps do the magic in my view on an AA network as the original canned caps were also polyester types. The „Q“ of this caps seem to match the horns very good and it is certainly no coincidence that even the most modern, highly praised Klipsch Heritage speakers have these yellow polyester caps, as can be seen in photos on the Internet. For me the change to such a type was definitely an improvement over the whole freq. band after I had Sonicaps before.
With the AA crossover it is definitely the much nicer sound when the Zener diodes are not in the circuit. It's only a protection for very loud signals or when a transistor amplifier makes loud clicks when switched on and off. Type A is 6 Db to the tweeter, type AA is 18 Db but still inherent.KT88, I like your gear choice. I will have a 300B amp someday. I would be curious to know what Polysester caps would you recommend or that you have experience with in Klipsch XO's?
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3 hours ago, Curious_George said:
The ALK universal will change the way your LaScala's sound. Imagine a "bell curve" from your statistics class (stock LaScala) compared to a flat line (ALK crossover mod). This is just a visual, but the sound is different between the 2 crossovers.
The A and AA crossover will let more of the midrange (high & low crossover points) bleed into the music spectrum. The A, AA and ALK are all 18dB on the tweeter, but slightly different the way they are derived. We all hear differently (physical & psychological factors) and this is the major reason someone may prefer one crossover to another.
It should not be too hard to convert your ALK's to an A or AA. Do it and see how it sounds. The Zener diodes don't do anything unless you are driving the speakers hard. They are invisible at mid to lower volumes.
This! thanks again George... never thought to convert the ALK's to AA's. probably because I didn't know you could... they seem very different across the board. If this conversion in fact a simple task then this would be great. Any resources on the conversion itself?
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4 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
Love my ALKs. They are a real move in making my Belle sound a lot better / cleaner than stock. You mentioned HII. I rebuilt he x overs in a pair not too long ago. Again, they sound better than ever.
I love mine too! Very happy with the ALK's... the only reason I want to try the AA xo is to see what the original sound is. If it makes sense, I have no baseline for my La Scalas. I have.never heard any other La Scala in person. So I just wonder. My heresy's are stock and they sound awesome, no plans to upgrade those until needed. Myabe I'm just trying to justify a project... when I already have a few in in the queue; Refinish the La Scala's, Paint the Listening Room, finish the Brick Pizza Oven... or maybe I should spend my money on a ton of records. It would suck to spend money only to switch it right back to the ALK's. But I'd know:).
Thanks all... food for thought and I really appreciate your experience!
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Hey George,
you kind of nailed the whole point of this thread! I love the Klipsch sound. I know a lot don’t, but I’m hooked on horns and Klipsch is my new home. I’m a late comer though, got a pair of heresy II’s couple of years ago after hearing so much about how well horns go with tube Amps. Those heresys with my SET amp is pretty awesome. I moved on to the La Scalas shortly after and I am even more in love with the Scalas. They sound awesome with the ALK xo’s… amd it’s not that I want to change the sound or that I’m looking for something. Different than we say, but I just can’t shake my curiosity of what the stock Type AA will do. Do my La Scalas sound anything like they intended to or does the ALK completely change the sound characteristics? So I started a thread to find out if it would be a worthwhile venture… would the difference be anything special?
got some good answers and some ideas. btw… clean your records! No pops and clicks here:)
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8 hours ago, karlson3 said:
Re: DE-120 - is there a little cheap plastic K77/T35 horn to fit that driver?
Here's an A configured network battery biassed before mounting the 9v battery holder. IIRC DJK (R.I.P.) said the AA tweeter section could be converted into an "Acoustic Butterworth" with a 1uF cap spanning its two caps.
You got me Karlson, what is an acoustic butterworth filter and what’s the benefit?
'76 La Scala - ALK Universal to Type A???
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