mikld
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Posts posted by mikld
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@The History Kid I just picked up a used pair of shure kse1500 electrostatic IEM's off eBay for $1200 (got lucky, retail ~$3000), coming off a pair of Audeze iSine20's i've been using for ~7years, that i'm ready to part with if you're interested?
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Also, check out Paul Stammets' lion's mane, psilocybin niacin stack: https://microdosinginstitute.com/microdosing-101/substances/lions-mane-stacking/
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That was a great interview, thanks for sharing
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1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
I have to smile at the way this thread took a turn from this: "I added subs to my Cornwall IVs and fell in love all over again"
to a how a non-subwoofer horn works!
my bad - carry on!
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10 hours ago, Islander said:
To avoid confusion, it’s good to use standard terms, so we’re all on the same page. Every speaker is made of one or more drivers. There are cone drivers, dome drivers, compression drivers, electrostatic drivers, and so on. When you put a driver in a cabinet, or attach a compression driver to a horn, and add a crossover, or balancing network, as Klipsch used to call them, then you have a loudspeaker system.
In the La Scala, placing a relatively narrow slot in front of the 15” cone driver allows it to mimic a compression driver. The slot does not restrict the woofer, it increases the speed of the air being moved by the cone of the driver. Then, placing a horn in front of that slot allows the high-speed air to slow down, and move a larger amount of air, with the net result that it’s easier to move the air in the room. The number of bends in the horn is irrelevant. The length of the horn is what matters when it comes to low bass extension. The Klipschorn was a breakthrough when it came out, because it folded a fairly long horn into a manageable package, then used the walls of the room as extensions of the horn, allowing for deep bass without needing much amplifier power or floorspace. This was a new concept in 1946, when Paul Klipsch invented it.
Later, in 1963, he wanted a “portable” size speaker for touring PA service, so he came up with the La Scala. It’s smaller than the Khorn, sort of, and does not need to be in a corner like the Khorn does. As well, for PA use, deep bass wasn’t needed. This is why many La Scala owners add a subwoofer or two in order to get the deep bass required to hear most music in the most realistic way.
The La Scala’s limited deep bass is due to the relatively short length of its bass horn, less than 3 feet, compared with the 8-foot-long horn on the Khorn. Getting deep bass with a horn-loaded speaker requires such a long horn that most manufacturers of horn-loaded speaker systems go with a separate direct-firing subwoofer, except for Avantgarde Acoustics speakers, whose optional horn-loaded subwoofer is really enormous.
One of PWK’s sayings was, “If it moves, it distorts.”, so he designed his speakers to produce full volume with only 1/16” excursion, which reduces distortion to a fraction of that produced by nearly all other speakers.
So how does a horn work? One explanation is that it lets the small diaphragm of the compression driver, or the larger cone of the Klipsch woofers, act like they are much larger, the size of the opening of the horn, in fact, which is pretty big. I like to compare horn-loading a speaker to putting swim fins on a swimmer. With bare feet, a swimmer’s feet get very little grip on the water, so he kicks hard and uses lots of energy, but doesn’t go very fast. However, if he puts on some fins, now his feet get a good grip on the water, and he can go much faster, with a fraction of the effort. In the same way, a horn lets the driver (cone or compression type) get a much better “grip” on the air in the room, so that it can produce much louder sounds with a fraction of the diaphragm or cone movement, and a fraction of the amplifier power needed by a conventional direct-firing speaker.
Why was efficiency so important to PWK? For two reasons: first, he wanted to be able to hear a symphony orchestra, with as many as a hundred instruments, sound just as loud through his speaker (music was mono back then, so he only needed one speaker) as if he was sitting in the front row of the concert hall, with only 5 watts of amplifier power!
Second, he wanted the music to sound as realistic as possible, so the distortion level had to be much lower than that produced by nearly all other speakers, so he needed to have very minimal driver excursion. The horn made both requirements possible.
Also, the speaker had to fit inside a typical living room, which seemed like an impossible set of requirements, but it all came together with the Klipschorn, which has been in continuous production for 74 years! Paul got it right the first time, but he kept on making improvements, and other Heritage Series speakers, until he died in 2002 at the age of 98.
’Nuff said!
Thank you Islander and henry4841, for breaking down how the basshorn section works! A few newbie questions if you don't mind:
The way klipsch puts a woofer in a box with a small opening that couples to a horn, lowers distortion, but does not restricts cone movement of the woofer. Is that "hard" on the woofer, the cone or suspension? Does the woofer need to be built to withstand pressure/force of horn loading (stronger cone material)? Does horn loading the woofer cause excess heat in the voicecoil? I suppose the only thing that would be stressful is if you put the wrong woofer in the wrong horn, asking it to produce bass below its capabilities, or if you're not giving it enough sealed volume.
Would the a bass horn benefit from a woofer that has triple spider, demodulation rings, larger and layered voice coils, even larger woofer selection, to further extend output and lower distortion?
I agree that only a few watts are necessary to get adequate volume, yet I see recommendations from speaker manufacturers that the amplifier should be at least equal to the RMS wattage of the speaker, sometimes double (max). Reason is that a low watt amp with a high watt speaker can stress the amp and/or speaker, and that an underpowered speaker, the bass isn't well defined, as low frequency transients can take huge amounts of power to reproduce. Amp/sound quality preferences aside, is it stressful to the use a few watts amp on a woofer that is 150 RMS, or stressful on the amp?
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16 minutes ago, henry4841 said:
Drivers are most often called a compression driver. How do you make a big 15" woofer into a compression driver? Stick in a small box that restricts it's rear movement and install a baffle with a slot in front of the woofer to restrict the forward motion of the speaker. You have now made a low signal compression driver. If not put in a horn this setup would not make much bass. Drivers move very little compared to conventional speakers. The horn part amplifies the small signal. One good reason for compression drivers over conventional speakers is the small movement of the driver reducing distortion and increasing transients. In a normal conventional large speaker there is flexing all over the surface of the cone when trying to produce music that contributes to distortion. A good reason we prefer horns over conventional speaker systems.
similar to what Danley does in their multiple entry horns (SH-50, SH-96, etc)?
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Hell yea Claude!
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Thank you Chris - I'm going to shoot for a 1.5x scale k402
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Thanks guys. I appreciating this discussion of a scaled up k402 MEH to shift the crossover of the Celestion Axi2050 closer to 200-250Hz, and better accommodate the location of the dual woofers and their port locations. I've started a mold inspired by the K402, and plan to fiberglass it to make a few ~k402 inspired MEH's, with the Celestion Axi2050's and likely using dual 18" woofers. I saw mention of an overall length of 21" as opposed to the k402's 17" length. Given that dimension of 21", the scaling would be (21"/17"=~1.24). Would the path forward be to simply scale all dimensions (except the 2" apex of the horn) of the k402 up by ~1.24? Or, would there be benefit of equalizing the length/width of the horn mouth, to make it more square than rectangular? Given that weight and size are trade-offs in increasing size of the horn, what about scaling the k402 up 1.5x, 2x, 3x? Where is the point of diminishing returns?
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Would it make a meaningful/worthwhile difference on woofers?
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Good stuff babadono - interested to see how it turns out.
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1 hour ago, VDS said:
Didn’t want to start a new thread, so I’m going slightly off topic. Anybody have any amp matching advice with a K402 MEH? Thinking Crown, class D xls 1502 or class AB k1.
probably my class A Pass xa25 for mids.
Any problem sonically, or otherwise, mixing A and D in K402 MEH horn? Or just go K1?any other amp advice? Thanks
VDS - I've been considering the same question for my upcoming K402 MEH build, thanks for asking. Nelson Pass (I believe in an interview on youtube, maybe the San Francisco audiophile society interview?), cautions against mixing amp topologies with different distortion characteristics (it can lead to unpredictable results per Nelson). I believe class D distorts at higher frequencies, but is not as much an issue for lower frequencies as Chris mentioned. I'm picking up a firstwatt F6 clone to drive the Celestion Axi2050's, and am still kicking around choice of woofers and amps to drive them. Let us know what you end up with.
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Chris/all-
Newbie alert here, no question too daft. I'm planning on building your K402 MEH's and have been considering using dual JBL 2226H 15" woofers wired in series for a 16ohm load, 600W, in place of the Crites 1526C. The JBL 2226H's requires 2-3 cubic feet volume sealed enclosure. I'm curious if you have reservations about using these? The best place to start is model the MEH in Hornresp or another model, I just have not learned Hornresp yet (its on my list). I understand they would be possibly overpowered, but i like that get down to 30hz if i decide t use them in outdoor applications (friends concert at the farm). I would pair them with the appropriate Crown Amp. on the point above, what would you think about using dual 18" on the long wall of the horn, to create a full range horn that reaches down to the 20s?
Feel free to offend if it gets the point across.
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I'm considering these JBL 2226HPL for the dual woofer portion of ChrisA's MEH design. Brand new, the 2226H go for $500. I see that Speaker Exchange has the 2226HPL brand new for $290/ea, "they have the same spec as the 2226H" per the website and their customer service team. That would be quite a cost savings to go with the HPL. I'm curious if anyone can speak to differences between the "H" and "HPL"?
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Hi Chris - I'm curious if you've found the lacks of high frequency output of the EQ'd Celestion Axi-2050 is audible compared to the Tad-4002 or the BMS 4592ND?
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Welcome back Rick! I’m interested in pictures of your modified k402 meh as well, and your impressions of the Celestion Axi2050
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Happy birthday PWK
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Dave A - I understand Mrdecibel has a heavily modded pair of LaScala's and runs subs with them, I don't know what his listening room is like or the music he listens to, I understand he listens to music 70-90dB and will get up to 100dB on occasion. Based on the listening session at ClaudeJ1's, there were no soundstage issues with his MEH's 5-6' from the listening position, at conversation volume, or at 100+db!
Looking for new headphones.
in Headphones
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I bought a used (~$1,200) Shure kse1500 IEM electrostatic, that retail new for $3500. There are other pairs available on Audiogon and eBay at that same price. There have a good DAC built into the eStat amplifier provided that can be bypassed when listening via the line out (2.5mm single ended) output, if you have a DAC you want to utilize already. The DAC kicks in when listening via the USB port to your computer, or phone, and the amp can be charged off your computer USB port while in use. They're in-ears, and provide something like 30dB isolation, I can attest they do a great job isolating outside sound, which helps blacken the background quite a lot when listening. They're also really durable, not a delicate hi-fi item, i use them when mowing the lawn and doing yard work, at the gym, etc. also being IEMS, they're not going to borrow anyone in your office, as open-backs or even some close backs would.
Some users say they lack bass, but they don't (frequency response digs down to ~10Hz), you can clearly hear/feel that sub bass on electronic music with bass information that deep, its all there. Rather they lack bass "slam" other headphones/IEMS may have. I would just call the bass quality fast and accurate, and extremely detailed, as are the mids and highs. I listen to most all kinds of music from acoustic jazz to classical to rock, death metal and rap, i would say the KSE1500's compliment everything i listen to through them. I couldn't imagine a headphone sounding more detailed, or honestly better, at this price range, or above that price range (I'm not sure what kind of money you're looking to spend).
The downsides are whether or not you are looking for IEMS (some don't like them), and some find the amp that comes with the headphones cumbersome when trying to use them in a portable situation. Also some complaints are that electrostats in general don't start revealing their magic until you turn up the volume past comfortable listening levels. Some also say they're treble-forward, which may not be bad depending on your age, as men lose their higher frequency hearing with age.
If you're on the hunt for the best headphonesin your price range, there are many good headphone reviewers on youtube that are unaffiliated (Zeos, Directors Garage, Wave Theory, etc).
Good luck!