colterphoto1
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Posts posted by colterphoto1
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I've read the web discussion re the low frequency sound absorbing panels and the problems with obtaining the OC materials. My question is more basic.
Assuming I am willing to build and install the appropriate sound absorbing panels, would I still benefit from creating a finished 2x4 stud/drywall wall along my concrete block basement walls? I'm a firm believer that a basement is just a basement, ie, don't put carpet and the best furniture down there. But would there be some degree of sound taming just from the flex in the drywall with perhaps some fibreglass batt between it and the concrete block?
Also, all the upstairs rooms in the house are double layer 3/8 plaster board with a skim coat of plaster- ie VERY stiff plaster walls and ceilings along with mostly hardwood floors. What type of acoustical treatment should I expect to install in primary/critical listening rooms (this would be my photo gallery, hearth/great room, and small bedroom theatre)
Thanks
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Hey Pop,
good thinking in terms of efficiency and cost/thump ratio, but DrWho and the others have given you very sage advice.
The problem with PA/pro gear is not only the very low end, but roughness of frequency response (the +/- portion of the response curve), and the fact that since they are SOOOO efficient, they will tend to operate in your HT at the lowest wattages of your pro amp, which is not necessarily the cleanest part of it's operational spectrum.
The EV cabinet will probably need 250-500 watts (at 96db w/ 1 watt, it will play at 117 when your puny 100 watt amp is taxed out- probably fairly distorted), you will also more than likely need 1/3 band or parametric EQ to tame the response (see JBL 4638 discussion this forum), take up LOTS of space (the wife acceptance factor comes into play here)
Do the right thing- pick up a Klipsch 12" sub as a starting point, play with positioning and kick back and enjoy!
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I'm a firm believer that even though the sub frequencies are 'unlocatable' in terms of directionality ( and I even think that the ear can pick up the directionality of fairly low tones better than many practitioners of the sub/satellite systems expound- -just go outside and listen to a thunderstorm sometime- you can certainly tell where it is coming from), the human ear CAN detect even minor timing differences.
Therefore, my system has the sub right next to one of the Cornwalls. I would give primary consideration to the smoothness of the bass coming from the sub (ie, distance from front and side walls), but defininitely would not place the sub any substantial difference (say less than .5 or more than 1.5 x) in distance from the main speakers.
my .02
Michael
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I've got several pairs of KSB1.1's ( not designed as outdoor speakers) However, would there be any harm in installing them on patio under underhang (which could act as a bit of a horn) so long as there is no way for weather to enter the cabinet through the bass port?
It appears the cabinet is fairly well sealed, plastic, and the woofer cone looks pretty impregnable as well. Has anyone else tried this? Got several pairs at $115 per pair when they went out of production.
PS Indy Ovation stores listed RF5 black for $750 buy one GET ONE FREE- is this a good deal? I'd rather hold out for RF7 or Heritage but if the price is right.....
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A local stereo shop (Ovation) has RF5 black on sale for buy one $750, get one free. Is this a good deal? I'd rather hold out for closeouts on RF7, but the 5's would suit my needs.
Michael
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congrats- I hope by now that you are enjoying your Cornwalls! Here's the decision-making process.
1. buy Corns
2. decide which you like better, Belles or Corns
3. sell me whatever you don't want! The price or Corns is a STEAL (ok, I got mine for $300 a pair, but they had been in a house fire) and if the Belles were owned by HornEd, they've got to be in great shape!
RE AVMAN polarity test:
take a D cell flashlight battery
remove grille cloth (for observation)
press speaker wire leads to battery
if polarity is correct, woofer will 'pop' out ( this does not hurt the driver, it just responds to the 1.5 v low amp signal by driving itself all the way, one way or the other
just make sure each speaker has the same polarity, you should have ample bass through your corns if they are properly placed in the room, corns actually have a much smoother mid bass response than LaScalas.
hope this helps
Michael
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hey J,
GREAT job on the refurbishing your Cornwalls! I'd like to see what they looked like when you started with them.
My pair survived a HOUSE FIRE as they were owned by a guy who didn't know what he had and they were stored in a bedroom CLOSET! Suckers smelled like smoke the first few years I owned them! I only had to have the woofers reconed and they sound great, only problem is the walnut veneer is stained and hacked to bits. I'm a pretty good carpenter and can manage a router. I'd like to refinish my Corns as well, my first question would be - how in the heck do you manage to get the old veneer off first? (and how do you get the balls to attack your beloved Klipshes?)
Again- GREAT WORKMANSHIP!
Michael
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Thanks Nectar (btw, great Corn system shown in HT forum)
This system of mine Corns and JBL subs, will be in my basement party room so standing waves will be a problem. I've studied the links to bass traps and will build and install them to liimit any bass peaks. Room is concrete block walls, concrete floors, real plaster ceilings! what a nightmare, but I think some science can tame it.
I do have the RS db meter and a Stereo Review test CD with 'warble' tones of the lowest few 1/3 octaves. Which settings should I use on the RS meter and what is the lf adjustment you refer to?
As an alternative, some local sound engineer friends have real time analyzers that I could borrow. would this be more accurate than using the RS db meter?
Per ARTO's comments to a fellow forum member, should I measure the system frequency response at the optimum listening position, or take an 'average' of several positions, including the dreaded corners?
Thanks for all the hints
Michael
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I have a pair of JBL 4645 subs (single 18" direct radiating with ports) These are rated at -3db down point at 35hz or 22hz with eq. I have a Rane dual 31 band that I could use on my sub outputs, I think this would be similar to IndyKlipschFan's setup. I also have several PA type power amps that could be used with these subs, Crown 1200, QSC 1500, etc.
Any comments or suggestions? This sub system would probably augument my Cornwall mains in my new homes basement party room. I'd retain my Klipsch SW15 for use in the 'pretty' theatre in the living room with RF towers. That way I'd have a nice clean reference system and a 'rough and ready' killer rock system.
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YEEEEOOOWWW A Klipsch get together in INDY. Won't you guys PUHLEEZE come over to my new Indianapolis home (currently under re-construction) and give me you thoughts on sound system design??
of COURSE I'll be there- but where is general info posted please?
If anyone needs advice on entertainment options :-) feel free to email me.
Michael colterphoto1@aol.com
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well said, Indy. I do indeed have RC7 as center between two Cornwalls and LOVE the sound. There may be a slight Timbre mismatch, but my ears are blown anyway. What I looked at more than anything was an efficiency match to the Corns. Most HT amps will let you turn DOWN the center relative to the mains, but you cannot adjust the mains lower than the center channel. (at least thats the way it is on my Yammie 850). I use the RC7 at about 92-96% depending on the source material. BTW, has anyone listened to NFL with the center (with announcers) turned WAY DOWN to about 75%, then jack the main volume WAY UP! The crowd noise is tremendous, just like being there. But I digress.
I think you'd be very happy with this combination. When listening to Movies, you very rarely directly COMPARE the sound between the mains and center. Yes, some sound effects move across the soundstage, but that happens so rapidly that only massive timbre match would be bothersome. In critical music listening ( okay, unless your SACD or ??) , the RC7 isn't working at all, so again the mismatch doesn't bother. I've honestly never directly hooked them up to compare, maybe I'll do that in the new house just to prove to myself that it's a fine combination.
RC7's and Corns ROCK!
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Ok, pardon my 'newness' but I've been following several threads re surround cabinet style and placement and keep hearing WDST. Let me guess...
Wide
Dispersioin
Surround
T?????
Am I even close? Is this a Klipsch-specific theory used for the RS series cabinets? Does Ed love these? In general, it seems like the gang is starting to shy away from not only tri/di/bi poles, but also any cabinet that disperses the sound in any direction except at the listeners ears.
Is it possible that this is a function of moving from Pro-Logic where the limited bandwidth, matrixed sound was designed to bounce around the room, to the Dolby Digital sound which is discrete, full bandwidth sound engineered with all the ambience necessary and SHOULD be heard as direct, time-aligned, localizable sounds????
Your thoughts, Ed? I am listening and trying to learn.
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Hey, look at it this way, at least you have matching paint to cover up the patch. If you have a cordless drill, use it to 'toenail' 2 1/2 drywall screws to firmly attach your 2x4 block to the studs in the wall cavity. You can place your block 'flat' to the drywall and it will be easier to install and give you more room to place your hanging screw. (hope this makes sense- hard to describe construction) IM me for more details on blocking and patching a stud wall.
Me, I'll be tearing out the 70's wallpaper from the 3800 sf home I just bought yesterday! Lotta fun- better get the destructo rock blaring!
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Well said, Indy!
I too am from Indianapolis. Did ya hear about the big fire in Louisville (KY) last week? Two Kentuckians were apparently trying to weld 2x4's together!! LOL
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Hello Ed and all!
I'm closing on a new home today and need to get my HT setups designed so I can rewire prior to reinsulating the attic.
I appreciate Ed's dislike of multiple-pole loudspeakers for surround. I've got a set of Definitive Bi-poles and not only are they limited bandwidth and much less efficient that any Klipsch design, but the 'bouncy' effect that seems useful in Pro-logic movie background sounds seems like it will be very distasteful when I get my new Dolby Digital receiver for the new house.
I have been assuming that I would add RS7's to my Cornwall RC7 system, but am having misgivings about this approach. First, please don't flog me for mixing heritage and Reference. I don't mind the timbre difference, because I love the Rock and Roll sound from the Corns (about half of listening is to classic rock), and the RC7 does a great job of sound localization for movie dialog. Plus it's the only center that physically fit (LaScala or Belles- fawghetaboudit) and could keep up with the Corns.
Please confirm/deny these assumptions about using RB series for surrounds:
1. vs bipolars, the mono surrounds would seem to be more flexible in terms of positioning in various rooms.
2. vs RS series, by reducing the amount of reflected sounds should increase clarity and localization of sound as the mix engineer intended. This would also hold true in the case of using the many excellent 'soundfields' available on Yamaha receivers.
3. on the position/height issue. I believe that time differences in driver placement are crucial. Therefore I can't understand placeing an RB5 on it's side, I would tend to keep the drivers time aligned toward the listening position. Also, placing the cabinets VERY near the ceiling would tend to make the first early reflecting very short and therefore indistinguishable to the ear. How far away from the ceiling could you place the cabinet before the ear could hear the first early reflecting distinctly?
4. with regard to side positioning of monopoles, in a long room with the system on a short side and sofa, say 2/3 way down the room, should surrounds be behind the listening position aimed at ear, aimed straight into room, ??
thanks gang- lot of $$ at stake, I'm anxious, and don't want to make any costly mistakes.
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IMHO, running both sets of horns, one H, one V orientation, would spray the sound too widely around the room, ruining the sense of localization that the center/dialog channel requires. You could also run into timing problems if driver to ear distance is considerably different. Wouldn't the vertical array also tend to send sound to floor and ceiling which would reach your ears at different times, further blurring the sound. With the seperate mid/high pack on top of TV, you could aim the sound directly at your 'sweet spot'. Re x-over I don't know, in PA days we always biamped the industrial LaScalas with electronic x-overs. If they don't have their own, it'd be a simple mod to route the outputs of internal (full cabinet) LaScalas to dual jacks to provide input to mid/highs.
I love my Cornwalls and would enjoy having a 'matched' set of heritage for HT, but have some reservations since these cabinets were not designed for todays HT systems, particularly with regard to dispersion characteristics. I know it's heresy (bad pun), but I really like my Corn-RC7-Corn setup. The center channel is just too important to rely on older designs, notwithstanding the timbre issue.
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Hey gang, you guys seem to have info on everything, so here goes:
In my photo gallery of new home CLOSING TODAY!!!, I will have my Canon XGA projector hooked up to laptop for clients to view photos and to HT setup for movies. The PC has db25? (three rows of pins in trapezoid plug about 7/8" wide) computer line outs and S-vid round pin outs. The projector will accept db25?, S-vid, RCA, or component (3xRCA) plugs. I'll probably get a new DVD/CD player for this setup.
Assuming the projector is about 10-15 feet from the screen and about a 20-25 foot wiring run from the computer and HT components, what should my wiring scenario be? MY PRIMARY CONCERN IS VID QUALITY FROM THE COMPUTER as it's how I make my $$$
1. DB25? from computer and other(see #2) from DVD, which I can switch from the projectors remote?
2.If I use the above scheme, what should I use from DVD to projector? I understand that composite (single RCA) is the cheapest and worst so it's out. S-vid is middle cost and quality, but the cables are only available in 20 foot lengths- does that mean that's the max recommended length of a S-vid run? Component vid (3xRCA) is the most costly be best, right? It looks like I'd have to have a custom cable made up at a cost of about $100+ for the 25 foot run. Is it worth it?
3. route the computer output Svid through the receiver and continue with this to the projector?
4. If the DVD is my primary vid source (ie no VHS or catv) should I route straight from DVD to projector, since I don't need the switching capability of the receiver?
Thanks
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Nice looking construction Joe! How did you determine the slope of the shelf? It looks pretty steeply angled downwards. Is your prime viewing position fairly close to the TV?
I've got my RC7 underneath my 35" Sony set, on a similar angled stand, but it has always bothered me that the rear port is firing into the TV stand cabinet. Your top-mount keeps the RC7 in free air, so the bass port is unobstructed, good job!
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I'm kind of a remodeling geek, so here goes:
There is NO WDRYALL ANCHOR that will support this amount of weight for any significant period of time. Remember, this is not a picture frame, that baby is VIBRATING! BTW- nice matched system. If you're good at drywall repair, you can open up a cavity and put a block between the studs where you want to hang the cabinet. Alternately, hang a short shelf ( 18" or so) between the studs where you want to place the cabinet, which will support the weight, then velcro the bottom of cabinet to shelf, or use the 'hanging' bracket just to keep the speaker in position.
8-9" offset may not be terribly significant, depending on your listening position. Try building a temporary set of stands to experiment with this speaker position (before you make holes in your walls) and see how it sounds. I'm always one for the practical simple approach of testing and listening vs all this theory and construction.
When handing into studs, drive a 4p nail into drywall at several points, to make sure you find the center of the stud (they're only 1 1/2" wide) so your mounting screw goes into center of stud. Use a #10 or 1/4 screw at least 2 1/2" long, remembering that some will stick out, 1/2" of screw is only in drywall, and you want at least 1 - 1/2 of screw securely into stud. The best way is to drill a small pilot hole first, only the diameter of the shaft of the screw, so the threads will still have lots of wood to 'bite' into. Remember to put small plastic 'bumpon'or felt pads on rear corners of speaker to reduce vibration with wall or drywall damage.
Good listening!
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I disagree, since the bass tones are 'heavier' and tend to sink toward the floor, they should be at the top of the cabinet. Treble notes, being lighter, tend to 'float' upwards, so the tweeters should be as close to the floor as possible.
JUST KIDDING- one of a series of ridiculous acoustical principles we used to think of whilst installing PA systems in discos during the 80's!
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Welcome to the Forum, some very sage advice coming from some very knowledgeable and experienced audiophiles!
I agree with most of the posts in this thread. You've got to get the new digital receiver as a priority- hey you pointed it out yourself as a weakness. Not only does it now have the processing you need, but if it's like my Pro-Logic Yammie 850, the surrounds are matrixed (not distinct channels), they only get half the power of the mains, are of limited bandwidth, + you don't have a real .1 sub output, possibly only a x-overed sub output, again not the discreet channel built into today's DVD's!
SPeaker-wise, I'd suggest that YOU FIRST SELL ME YOUR HERESY'S as they'd be a much better match to my Cornwalls than my current Definitive Bi-polars (sorry Ed, I didn't know!) With the additional $$$ you could follow the advice of the others with the new surrounds and critical center channel speaker to match the timbre and efficiency of your mains. WHAT A DEAL- WE BOTH WIN!!
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Hey Indy!
I too believe in BIG BOXES!! In the words of Ian Gillan (of Deep Purple screams) YYEEEAAAHHHHH
I'm closing on the new Indianapolis Home today. You'll have to stop by and give your sage advice on my many planned HT installations. Maybe sell me some of those Birch babies you've got laying around the garage.LOL
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Agree with Griff on the WAF (wife acceptance factor - for newbies) Neatness counts. You don't want wires hanging out and RCA jacks or even spade lugs aren't the best for speaker connects.
Try MCM electronics - I think they have a line of standard wall plates that would fit remodel boxes with 5-way binding posts. They would fit standard dual banana plugs just like on the back of your Klipsch speakers. Groovy!
ps MCM also carries the EV horn that is a suitable replacement for heritage tweeters in Heresy, Cornwall, etc. OK OK, the purists will get me for this last comment.
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The wall is pretty full with the mantle over the fireplace and the screen needs to come down past the mantle to avoid neck strain looking up at the screen.
I'm going to use the laser pointer idea for calculating the angle and build a custom roll-about cart for the centre speaker. Just to get artsy, I'm going to disguise the whole contraption as a wraparound brass fireplace screen, so it won't even look out of place when its in position. That way, it'll be in position to use most of the time. I'll probably be using it to watch movies more than i'll use the fireplace.
Just have to remember to remove the RC5 before pushing the remote button to light the gas fireplace logs! That'd be one hell of an expensive fire!
HT/dedicated listening room sizes
in Architectural
Posted
from ARTO "Somehow, recently this idea of 'virtual' room size has come into play as if the sound can 'see' the walls beyond the walls. It's simply an excuse for someone's ego to justify in their mind that their room is somehow larger than it really is and that they can benefit from it. It's BS. And its not what you want anyway. In fact, its something to be avoided."
Is this why all stereo and PA's sound like a million bucks when outdoors? They are freed from room constraints that cause standing waves and 'peaky' low freq performance?
Arto, would appreciate your thoughts re my STIFF room in basement. Am I better off leaving concrete block walls and taming standing waves with Ethan's bass traps, or building drywall walls first? (I think I know your answer to this)
That being said, then is it possible to locate the offending frequencies by room measurement or use of db meter and test tones? Would it then be possible to construct the bass traps specifically designed to tame the offending frequencies, or am I taking this whole thing too far?
When installing the bass traps, I understand placing an array of them in the corners of the room, but my basement room is 'L' shaped. Would I be able to just fill the outer corner of the 'L", which would give an array on each of the two sets of parallel walls, or should they be installed throughout the room? (I'm thinking of the WAF here, it's possible to paint/fabric a few panels, but not 50% of the wall surface)
Thanks
Michael