colterphoto1
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Posts posted by colterphoto1
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Am I right in reading that you have your Cornwalls placed along the LONG side of the room, shooting into the SHORT axis? If so, I disagree with the placement. My Corns are placed NEAR the corners, but firing INTO the LONG axis of the room, that is to say that the system is on the SHORT wall. I believe it has the following advantages:
1. the dispersion characteristics of the Corns are fairly wide in the mid/high frequencies, for HT use, you normally would want more direct sound from the mains. Therefore, place the Corns slightly away from the side walls, and angling inward toward the sweet zone. This will also minimize early reflections from the side walls, which tends to blur the soundstage.
2. By placing furniture in the center of the room (sometimes difficult when firing into the short dimension), you gain the advantage of getting proper placement of your surround speakers.
Of course, this all depends on many factors out of our control, like the placement of windows and doors, and the inevitible SPOUSAL factor in furniture placement.
Good Listening- CORNS ROCK!
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Thanks for the advice gang. Per your responses, no, I really don't have the room for paired 'center' speakers at the sides or below the screen, and I despise the idea of foregoing the critical center channel (thanks Ed.)
I've decided just to be slightly inconvenienced and put an RC5 (just so it's not so damn heavy- the RC7 is a MONSTER) on an angled stand when doing critical movie viewing at this location. This system will mainly be used for clients viewing their photographs, so the stereo mains (+ maybe some surround effects) will suffice for the 'mamby pamby' muzak I play for consultations. When using the system for date-night viewing, it won't be so tough to drag the center into position.
Thanks for the laser pointer idea. I've been using the pythagorean theorum to calculate the height and angle of the wedge. laser much easier. For those forgetful types, here's my Dad's Purdue University Engineering version of the theorum:
"The hum of the hair of the two hides is equal to the hair of the hippopotamus hide."
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After experiencing the wowing effects of a proper center speaker with RC7, I would hate to forego this important channel. Has anyone experimented with using a pair of center speakers on the sides of the screen? I'm thinking here of maybe positioning two in-wall speakers at the lower outside corners of the screen. Or would this just muddy the important dialog channel by creating time-delay effects for listeners seated off axis?
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I'm in a HT design quandry. In my gallery/big screen room, I will have a Canon projector TV for my photo clients and wish to use this room as a 'nicey' HT for family viewing. My Cornwall/RC7 system for concerts and bang-bang movies will be in basement, so the gallery system doesn't have to terrorize the neighborhood. There will be a KSB1.1 system in the bedroom, so this will be the THIRD HT in the home, albiet the one with the largest screen. This is a nice, 15x20 room.
I'm thinking of either using my Maple RB3's as mains with Definitive Bipolar surronds, or just go nuts and put in big Klipsch towers RF7 or RF5.
The problem is this- with a pull-down 100" diag screen for viewing over an operational gas fireplace, where in the world do I put the center channel speaker? I'd just get a smaller cabinet and put it on the mantle, but the screen is not acoustically transparent (hey, I got it at a close-out for $150). Should I just resign myself to setting the centre speaker on a small angled stand in front of the fireplace when I want to do movie viewing? Thanks
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This may be a silly addition to this thread, but bear with me. I have a Yamaha RXV 850 ProLogic 5 ch receiver that has served me well, and recently purchased a RX596 stereo receiver for my home office, which is stereo listening only. Bought it because it's more power into 2 channels for less $$$.
Also two other factors.
1. In the old PA days (and class a, b, ab power amps) one of the main buzz words was damping factor. The ability of an amp to not only start the speakers movement, but the ability to STOP it, ie, cease the ringing, once it got moving. We always looked for damping factors of 200+. Lots of HT amps have very small damping factors, check it out.
2. If I'm using a digital HT receiver, even on a normal stereo mode, with no 'effects', is my sound from my source still being chopped into tiny digital bits before being processed and amplified or are the digital portions of the processing being bypassed. Maybe I'm showing my age, but why buy all these expensive components only to destroy/rebuild the music when you can have sonic purity? Is this one of the reasons many people on the Forum have two separate systems in their listening rooms? One for HT and one for higher quality stereo listening. Seems a pity that you can't have it all in one unit. That being said, do the newer flagship Yammies have some kind of feature that lets you bypass all the digital goodies if they are not needed? Perhaps this a/d/a conversion is part of the cause for the Yamaha/Denon/HK debate?
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You COULD, but here are a few problems associated with that approach. First, if you just paint the wall, there are the inevitible nail dimples and waves and paint globs found in drywall. Same thing even if you hang a fresh sheet. One approach I've used in temporary situations is a sheet of Gatorfoam. It is a very still 3/16 board used for mounting photographs and is extremely flat and stable (not prone to warpage)
Heres what you gain from using a professional screen. The ability to choose a 'color' to suit your viewing room. Some prefer a 'brighter' screen for more contrast, some prefer a more grey screen. Also the brighness (reflective cooefficient) of the screen and the angle at which the screen may be viewed are inversley correlated. That is, a screen that has highly reflective particles (looks like glass beads) cannot be viewed well from the sharp side angles. A screen that may be viewed well from side angles will not be as bright. So there is a little shopping to do here. You also gain the aesthetic advantage of being able to have a normal furniture and wall hanging layout in the home (think of the spousal approval factor) and just pull down the screen (or flip a switch if you have a motorized screen, some $$$) when its SHOWTIME!
Have fun. You might checkout projectorpeople.com or the dana or dalite companies for more info. Happy viewing!
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Try looking for an Industrial La Scala. They are a two cabinet setup, with the low bin separate from the mid/high pack. We used to use them in pa applications, stacked from bot to top as lo-lo-mid/high-mid/high- made an awesome 6' stack and very portable as well.
You could set your TV on top of the lo bins, with possibly some additional supports, then place the mid/high pack on top of the TV. It is my understanding that if the magnets cause TV interference, that a matching magnet, placed pole-to-pole inside the cabinet, will nullify this effect. That in essence is what makes a 'shielded' speaker. They are not really shielded, just the magnetic effect outside of the cabinet is nullified by the extra magnet. (I could be off on this one)
Good luck- sounds like the makings of an awesome system.
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If you decide to go drywall, take the paneling off first as it may buzz. Also GLUE and SCREW the drywall to the studs, as nails will not suffice, particularly in the Khorn zone. Use something like PL200 in caulking gun tubes and apply a continuous thin bead to all studs prior to slapping the drywall on.
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I'm an ex-sound engineer and remodeling contractor. Here's my .02, and I'm going to be going through the same thing in my new home with block walls in the basement party room with my Cornwalls.
First- READ THIS SITE for info regarding standing waves, absorbtiion of various surfaces, and how to CONTROL the sound. I'm going to build the bass traps like the guy suggests and leave my concrete walls painted.
You are correct in that your heavy paneling acts about the same as drywall. If you resurface the walls, DO NOT put loose fibreglass batt insulation where it can come into contact with block or poured concrete walls because it will pick up moisture and get funky in time. It will help a bit with sound transmission between interior rooms however. To reduce transmission to the first floor, pull down the cheap 'acoustic' tile and hang new drywall using resilient channels (a metal bracket) to isolate it. Remember to do ALL WIRING prior to drywalling the ceiling. 2x4 acoustical tile is no good, because even the heavier tile and track systems vibrate and buzz when you get the system really rocking.
Hope this helps!
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Klipsch- Lacking Bass? Where was this guy auditioning the speakers from, his padded cell? Must have been his first (and hopefully last) review.
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Thanks for the acoustics info Griff! EVERYONE should read this,
- By installing bass traps or "baffles" as you refer to them (for a cool DIY bass trap design, check this link: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html ) in the corners, you break up the standing waves, which almost always originate in the corners anyhow. If the room is an odd shape (as in not rectangular or square) then you may have standing waves in other parts of the room, and you'd need to test with an SPL meter and a sine-wave series to find them
This article and construction details fully explain what is wrong with most listening/control rooms and how to correct it. I'm going to download his 'standing wave' calculator and construct the appropriate bass traps to control the sound in my basement listening room. This Ethan Winer is a very interesting fellow indeed.
Thanks bunches
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Thanks for the input. I'll nix the JBL 18's for subs, even though I have an electronic x-over I could run them through. I'll just keep em for band pa or to honk off the neighbors. I am currently enjoying the SW15 sub (only 100 watts) with my Cornwalls and can really tell the difference with the 'slam' on movies. Should I stay with a dedicated HT-type sub then? Assuming that I like the addition of a sub to the Corns, what would be the best match? Am I going to have to spring for big $$ for RSW15 THE BIG MOMMA???
Don't understand how catv RG6 wire would be adequate to run line level signal between remote systems. I'll check with my local AV installer, but I still think some type of transformer would be necessary to maintain high fidelity.
Re bipolars- hey, I've already got em, they're white, so they would blend in nicely, and this is the 'nicey-nicey' HT room, the basement Heritage Klipsch system would be where I would watch concerts and destructo-movies.
Thanks for acoustical hints. I take it that is the stiff yellow fiberglass that is used for commercial ductwork and is also found in the walls of office cubicles. I plan on hanging several panels from the ceiling, parallel to the walls, about 2 inches from the walls. Perhaps treat the room as the interior of a speaker cabinet? Do I only need treatment on one of each set of parallel walls to break up standing waves, or should the treatment be symmetrical to my speaker setup and listening position? I REALLY don't want to put anything on the ceiling, it's low enough already.
As an ex-sound man for bands (live stuff, not studio) I understand some things about acoustical control, but what do CORNER baffles do??
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Hello Klipsch Fans! I'm closing on an existing home soon and the first bit of business for this 4000 ft2 ranch is rewiring and re-engineering all the various av components for the new home. My question is multipurpose.
First, here is my initial layout for some various systems. My 'formal living room' which will be used for my photo gallery and client viewing room via Canon projector onto 8' screen will be my 'nice' theatre room with new Yamaha? 5.1 receiver, and all new Klipsch Reference system front and centers for clairity and size, along with my Definitive BiPolar surrounds. Sub is Klipsch RS15. Main source will be DVD/CD player and laptop computer for Photo displays (I'm a wedding photographer)
My 'old' system will go the the basement rock and roll room and consist of 35" Sony direct tube TV, Yamaha 850 HT receiver, Cornwalls, RC7, and new Klipsch RS7 surrounds (need efficiency here since 850 is only 30 watts to rear channels). This will be the main 2-channel listening environment and party room with bar, pool table, etc. This will have CD changer, Cassette, DVD, and turntable (yes vinyl still rocks!) Oh, yeah almost forgot- how bout a Crown 1200 amp and two JBL 18" PA cabinets for subs!
The bedroom small seating area will host a 27" Mitsu TV with small surround receiver and a Klipsch 4x KSP1.1 and KSC-C1 centre. DVD/CD plugged into for source material.
My office will utilize my iMac as digital 'jukebox' and is connected to a Yamaha 596 Stereo receiver and Dahlquist 8" 2-way bookshelves. It will be the heart of the distributed sound system and will output line levels to the Gallery theatre system and a power amp. There will be inceiling speakers in Kitchen, bedroom, family room, and KSB1.1's in back porch and outside under eaves) These may need to be run with transformers.
QUESTIONS
What do ya think? Should I configure my systems differently?
How to run line levels from Office receiver to Gallery room about 30 feet away. Probably will have to change Hi-Z to Lo-Z and back again at the other end?
Any hints on acoustical control in basement party room. Walls are concrete block, floor is vinyl tile on concrete, ceiling is plaster. It's REAL ringy. I'm thinking about hanging some panels of still yellow building fibreglass (1-2" thick) slightly away from walls and cover with cool fabric. Rugs on walls were possible, and lots of upholstered furniture. Any more suggestions?
Thanks gang!
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Here's a little math quiz for all you efficiency lovers out there. When I used to work for a local PA installation company, the owner would put newbies through this quiz. Remember this was back in the 80's so the equipment has changed somewhat. This will be an example of why BOSE SUCK. The speakers may appear less expensive, but couple the terrible distorted, ringy sound to the amount of amplification you need to drive these power hungry little boxes and you'll see why Klipsch is not only more ear-friendly, but more economical.
Ok, here goes. How many Bose 901 cabinets (8 x 4" speakers) at 83 db/watt/meters and Crown DC300 amplifiers does it take to match ONE Altec A7-8 Voice of the Theatre at 104 db/watt/meter with ONE Crown DC300A.
Hint, the Crown amp was like 150 watts per channel into 8 ohms and it takes DOUBLE the wattage and speakers to deliver 3 more dB. (disclaimer- some of these figures may be off a bit, hey I grew in the 70's okay- I can't remember EVERTHING!)
ANSWER - it would take 8 Bose cabinets and 1200 watts of Crown amps to match the Altec cabinet's efficiency, to say nothing of sound quality and distortion. This is why we used a double stack of La Scala Industrial Separates for our main portable Band and Disco PA system! Loved those babies!
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I wish to expand on the above posts. I helped my Brother build a home a few years back and we put a small theatre in the fam room and distributed sound throughout. He's not a real serious HT buff, so it works for him and the kids. HOWEVER, we used the Quintet and 10" Klipsch sub for his main room, not bad for HT use, but I was never satisfied with the sound for stereo. Here's why- the Quintet are so small that you have to cross over the sub very high in it's range. The sound then becomes kind of 'honky' or 'nasal'. Another problem is that with stereo sources, some people can localize sounds better. Very low frequencies coming from a sub in the corner are no problem, but lower mid range sounds should be part of the stereo sound field, not relegated to the 'corner box', therefore you lose out on the true sound field as the artist and engineer mixed. So- Ok for small HT, NOT for stereo listening. Get at least Synergy series, preferably Reference for an earth-shaking experience! Welcome to the Club!
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Here's another way to look at it. Despite the increase in efficiency between RF5 and RF7 (what about 2 dB), if you play them at the same volume, the RF7, having TWO woofer cones, will only have to move HALF as much, therefore, much lower distortion in the bass region. Besides, bigger boxes are ALWAYS better! I know, I've got Cornwalls! At least spring for 7's across the front, even if ya need to use smaller cabinets in the rear.
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Good questions and thanks for considering Klipsch. First of all, Best Buys is not a full service store and carries only the Synergy line. Go to your local full-service audio dealer to AUDITION the speakers you are considering. The RMS means little, since the Klipsch are SOOOO effiecient that you will rarely be using all the wattage your receiver puts out. I'd seriously consider the RS line for your surrounds, depending on your room configuration. Especially in a smaller room, the localization of the sound is critical. For most HT applications, you want fairly direct sound from the fronts (so youse can tell where the noise is coming from), then somewhat more indirect sound for the rears (so the sound bounces around like in a real theatre). I'd get the baddest center channel you can afford if you plan on lots of movie watching. If your main interest is stereo listening, get the biggest front L/R's you can afford. Most folks on this board consider a sub a requirement, but depending on budget and room size (and dare I say, decor) you may not be able to fit it in or afford it right away. Thats okay, because the Reference series all have pretty serious, smooth bass.
Hope all this helps- remember that room placement and acoustical treatments like drapes and carpet play a HUGE role in the final sound of your room. Consider all these item carefully and have FUN!
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I've not torn into a set, but my guess is that most home HT speakers have a second magnet set in the rear of the cabinet with it's poles reversed from the woofer's (largest and strongest magnetic field). There is no actual 'shielding' as in copper foil, etc. Therefore, am I to take it that I need to purchase and install suitable magnets inside my Cornwalls? Any idea what strength these need to be. I wouldn't think this would need to be highly scientific, therefore hesitate to buy officially sanctioned product if it's at high $$$.
IndyKlipschFan- Any idea what these 'bucking' magnets cost or a part number? Do I need to order specifically for my corns, or is a just a big general purpose magnet? Am I really possibly causing long term damage to my TV tube if I don't do this mod?
I'll probably wait and do this when I make further xover, horn-dampening, and cabinet stiffening mods. Whew! Thanks all!
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I always opt for spending $$ on the audio portion of equipment first. In response to a couple of previous posts, from a psychological perspective, it is the SOUND that draws your attention into the theatre experience the most. Agreed that the human sense of sight is probably our primary sense. It is simply that the acoustical phenomena of surround sound really triggers something deep within us that makes the experience very real. Imagine a huge projection screen setup with a tinny, mono sound system. Now move to a setup with say, 27" screen with a killer audio system. The later will bring much more enjoyment!
Regarding projection systems, have you looked into Canon? They have a model, I think 7450, that is XVGA, 1800 lumens, and comes with a spare bulb ($500 bonus) for about $1800 at discount houses.
good listening (and viewing)
Michael
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I recently replaced my 27" Mitsu with a 35" Sony direct-view (tube) television. Due to space constraints, the Sony now sits on a stand directly adjacent to a Klipsch Cornwall. For the first 12 hours or so, pink or green discoloration appeared in the corner of the TV tube closest to the Cornwall woofer. THEN IT DISAPPEARED! I know this was due to the proximity of the tube to the woofer magnet and the Cornwall being 'unsheilded'.
Question:
Why did this phenomena disappear after a few hours viewing, and am I possibly causing long-term damage to my Sony TV? Is there a way to block/shield the tube from the magnetic interference ?
Michael
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agree to above posts- for HT, get the biggest, baddest centre speaker you can afford! You can always turn it down using your receiver's balance control. What you need is the full bandwidth (LOW end) and imaging that a dedicated engineered center channel box gives you. Therefore RC35 or RC7 would be my choice!
That is why i can't see the number of heritage purists who use cornwalls, heresies, or LaScalla's for center channel speakers based on the timbre matching principle. I think that arguement is minor compared to bandwidth and imaging which are both highly critical for HT centre channel IMHO. (no, I'm not trying to 'flame' you guys, and no I havent tried heritage in my system, YET! )
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They ARE expensive. The lamp for my canon 7105 is $400. There is a retailer selling Canon 7405? with a sparebulb for only about $2000.
You might try local camera store for leads on getting replacement bulbs. Also try online projectorpeople.com
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Hey LoLo, welcome to the forum. I use an AudioControl 2x10 band eq with my Yamaha receiver. It is connected using the pre-out/in rca terminals provided with this receiver. Many receivers do not have this provision, so you end up using a tape monitor loop, which may severly restrict the source material you can use the eq with. On my setup, my two Klipsch Cornwalls are eq'd regardless of the source material OR THE SURROUND MODE used on my receiver. With rock and roll, straight stereo, eq works, with 5 channel Home theatre, Corns are still being eq'd and OTHER CHANNELS ARE NOT. This is critical to your setup. If you are using seperate pre and power amps the eq just goes between the two.
For most home users, a10 band eq works best, it gives you gentle eq slopes at one band per octave of sound, so yes you can control the entire frequency spectrum. Used in conjunction with a good test cd and a calibration device such as the Radio Shack dB meter and you can obtain flat frequency response (as a starting point) from your system. Regardless of the test curve of your Klipsch speakers in an anechoic chamber, the REAL OUTPUT will change based on the size of your listening room, damping materials such as drapes, heavy carpet, upholstered furniture, mass of you dog, etc. These conditions all change the real world response of your speakers. My advice, use the above tools to eq to a 'flat' response at your prime listening position (mount dB meter on mic stand so it always measures from same location), Mark the position of all the eq sliders for future reference, then re-tweak your 'personal' preferences in if you wish.
31-band 'third-octave' equalizers are IMHO too much trouble for home users and you're more likely to screw up the sound with their narrow bands and steep curves.
Good luck- email or msg me for more info on eq-ing. I'm an ex sound and lighting engineer for bands and theatre.
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Congrats on purchase. I'll send you specs on building Cornwall I speaker grill boards from my dimensions. For woofers, don't replace, if your fixes don't work, have your baskets reconed (old pa guys use clear fingernail polish to fix tears, you don't want anything flexible and heavy, you want hard and light like woofer cone material. Look for a local electronics repair company that works on guitar and pa amps and speakers, they can get a recone kit and do the work for about 1/2 what a new woofer will cost you.
cornwall placement in a room
in Technical/Restorations
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My response was in regards to a HT setup. PWK's statements relate to a large three channel music system.
There is also no logic to room size or any dimension thereof relating to the size of a waveform that can 'develop' in a room. Ask Ed or Arto about waveform theory. Dispersion and reflections (which both affect the soundstage) are the main concerns here.
I also stand behind my statement that the corners may NOT be the best place for a speaker to be placed, since it puts the woofer of a Cornwall nearly the same distance from three boundaries (floor, wall1, wall2, a trihedral space) therefore emphasizing a single frequency, whereas placing it a different distance from two walls would theoretically emphasize a broader bass bandwidth.
God, I LOVE all this theory, just move 'em around and hear what you like best- THAT"S what its all about!