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Everything posted by garyrc

  1. I agree wholeheartedly! My Khorns reveal more than any other speakers I have heard. Now, there are a few horn/lens/drivers, using the JBL 375 (2440 Professional)driver above 500/800 Hz, as used in the Paragon, Hartsfield, and these theater monsters used in the original 70mm Todd-AO theaters (5 complete systems behind a huge curved screen) seem startlingly clear: but I have never heard them sound balanced in a home speaker (in the theater, yes), and in most systems they drop like a rock at about 10K Hz, unless supplemented by a super tweeter (as in the Paragon). Frequency response of the 375/2440: In most systems (not Paragon) the lens looks like this, a work of art: Even if you add a JBL super tweeter like the 075, the Klipschorn sounds more balanced, distinctly warmer, even if not so startlingly clear. I was able to compare the Klipschorn, Paragon, Hartsfield (hardly any bass), B& W 801 F, and several others (Khorn & Paragon in the same room, then Khorn & B&W 801 F sharing another room, others not). Results: Paragon & Hartsfield had the overwhelming clarity of the 375, but otherwise a bit (Paragon) or a lot (Hartsfield) unbalanced, and without the bass impact and balance of the Klipschorn. The B&W 801 F was nice, with a different kind of detail than the Khorns, but it didn't draw me in like the Khorns did, took a much more powerful amplifier for the same SPL, and seemed more bland. The Khorns were much better for brass, etc. Over the years, I have heard many speakers renowned for their detail that have disappointed me in one way or the other. I haven't been able to find good balance, impact, macro and micro dynamics, detail, clarity and spine tingling, emotion boosting, cortex tingling sound in anything except Klipschorns. Caveats: 1) Bad recordings will probably sound bad, unless you can use tone controls or other means to make them good. Classical and Jazz will probably sound good. Some Rock and Metal recordings have had the low bass drained out them, so the upper bass and midrange can be turned up. See Chris A's "The Missing Octave" in this forum, as well as "Corner Horn Imaging." 2) My Khorns sound even better with either Audyssey Flat or Audyssey Reference (depending on the recording) and between 3 dB and 12 dB bass boost. That sounds like a lot, but consider the widespread preference for a variety of curves with the bass about 9 dB or 10 dB higher in SPL than the high treble, such as in the famous Harman curve:
  2. Blast from the Past: It turns out that there were 11 versions of the 604, and the first was designed by JBL (the man) when he was with Altec, before he started his new company, JBL. The 604E was the one I was familiar with c. 1974; it sounded much better than it should have 😁, and better than Altec A7s, and several other Altec, JBL, and Westlake monitors in other Bay Area studios. From Wikipedia, "Studio Monitor: "The first high-quality loudspeaker developed expressly as a studio monitor was the Altec 604 Duplex in 1944. This innovative driver has historically been regarded as growing out of the work of James Bullough Lansing who had previously supplied the drivers for the Shearer Horn in 1936, a speaker that had rapidly become the industry standard in motion-picture sound. He’d also designed the smaller Iconic and this was widely employed at the time as a motion-picture studio monitor. The 604 was a relatively compact coaxial design and within a few years it became the industry standard in the United States, a position it maintained in its various incarnations (the 604 went through eleven model-changes) over the next 25 years. It was common in US studios throughout the 1950s and 60s and remained in continuous production until 1998" The first, or near the first, good big theater speakers, 8 feet (or more) tall, including the Shearer were designed by JBL (the man) in collaboration with others. When 70mm film was resurrected, the first 70mm process was Ampex was given the task of developing Todd-AO's sound system. They had JBL (the company) design the speakers. Some Todd-AO theaters used Altec, when both JBL (then a small company) and Ampex couldn't manufacture them fast enough, and or, some theaters already had big Altecs, and only needed to add a few more to accommodate Todd-AO. The JBL design looked like this: Jim Lansing Theatre Sound System of 1954 (Also Manufactured as Westrex T550 and Ampex 6000C) © Harman International, Courtesy Mark Gander and John Eargle 4 - 15 inch woofers, and two of the highest clarity midrange drivers ever, all horn loaded, with an auxiliary port for the lowest bass, times 5 behind the screen channels (and a 6th surround channel pumped to surrounds around the theater. Excellent response 40-10K, with "usable" (JBL's term) down to around 30 Hz. I saw (and heard) 70mm versions of Oklahoma!, Around the World in 80 Days (1956 version), Porgy and Bess and Ben-Hur (1959 version) in theaters using these speakers; I've rarely heard better in any venue to this day. The sound was far better balanced than in the 1977 Star Wars, also 70mm/6 channel in the same theater, with different ("improved") speakers.
  3. Large vintage Heritage which were updated in around 2003, or so, have a steep crossover and a different crossover point to the tweeter. Kits from Klipsch might still be available (mine were put in 2005). To me, my Khorns sound better than before the stock AK4/AK5 upgrades (a difference of one resistor, IIRC). My Klipschorns, Belle center, Heresy II surround, with Audyssey, and outboard bass EQ are overwhelming (in a good way) in our combo Music Listening Room and Home Theater. We also have a sub. Some people using Home Theater Receivers inadvertently have "Subwoofer" set to "YES" or "PRESENT," but aren't using a subwoofer! ... or have their main speakers set to "SMALL" with no subwoofer ... any of these could roll the bass off below the typical Xover point of 80 Hz. The "deep bass" part of the spectrum is approximately the octave of 40 to 80 Hz, so you would not want it rolled off at about 12 dB per octave. Klipschorns, in my room, will reach 30 Hz at nearly flat, and about 22 Hz with much attenuation. Kick Drum: According to Art Dudley, better quality vintage speakers have: “Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And Soul.”
  4. They used 604Es at Wally Heider recording studio in San Francisco in the early 1970s, powered by McIntosh 275 tube amps. They sounded very, very good. There was some roll-off above 10K Hz and below 80 Hz. Still, they sounded very, very good! We visited the Heider studio in an elective course called "Discover Your Ears," at San Francisco State University. We visited most of the studios in the extended Bay Area, as well as Churches with exemplary pipe organs, like Grace Cathedral, with an antiphonal organ.
  5. Reminds me of the veddy, veddy British manual for the SME tone arm in about 1969, in which they cautioned, "Do not take it to pieces." I can't decide whether that is my favorite, or Luxman's use of just the right amount of feedback to "avoid evil effect."
  6. Looks cozy. I once had 2 Khorns in a approx 1,000 cu. foot room. I'm not counting the very high ceiling, and loft. That would make the total more like the size of yours. I put two Heresy IIs in the loft above and behind the listener, fed through a Lexicon CP-1 ambience creating box (and extra 2 channel amp), but the Khorns did not; they could have been called "pure direct," but this was before the Cambrian Explosion that brought us Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov, Atmos, etc. The system sounded great, and the room sounded large, with some ambiance coming from above. The only drawback was a sweet spot with good imaging that was between one and two seats wide. In our current room, more like 4,300 cu ft., we have a modified Belle Klipsch center, flush mounted in the wall, with a long K401 horn to match those in the updated Khorns, requiring the Belle to have a new "top hat" in a bump out that goes through the wall. The Belle is sitting on a strong shelf 1" above the RSW 15, with the space between the RSW and the shelf filled with closed cell rubber. Placement took months of experimentation-- we had the sub all over the room -- now, snug in its chamber, the rear of the sub (the electronically powered driver) is loaded by the rear wall of the bump out (5/8" sheetrock, screwed and glued to 3/4" ply, screwed and glued to 2x6 studs, rinse and repeat on the other side of the bump out extending beyond the wall). With ear protection in place, I put my hand between the powered driver and the rear wall of the bump out, and sure enough there is hardly any excursion with the loudest, deepest bass. For some reason, the deepest bass didn't kick in until we used the system for a while, as described in an earlier post. The chamber is 8.5 feet tall, and the angled ceiling of the chamber joins the angled ceiling of the room which slopes up to 11' 8" at the opposite end of the room. My wife calls the chamber the "Garyhorn." The front wall is covered with grille cloth. Oh, my fur and whiskers! Two HT posts - page 283, somewhere here: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/42011-lets-see-your-home-theater/page/283/#comments
  7. As do you! What RSWs do you have? I have one RSW 15, and didn't like it much at first -- it sounded a bit "muddy" [compared to the Khorns/Belle/ Heresy IIs, above the crossovers set for each of them] and a REW sweep did not register below 30 Hz, well short of the advertised 19 Hz. I started fantasizing about a DIY 11 foot tall horn loaded sub in a rear corner and also changed the Xovers from 80 Hz to 60 Hz on all but the Heresy IIs, and it sounded cleaner and better, but I didn't rerun REW ... then ... when I finally did run a sweep, from the center seat on the couch, 16 Hz read - 2 dB, and from the far right seat (seat #5) it read -10 dB, but moving the frequency up to 20 Hz produced + 6 dB. Sometime I'll rerun. Someone else got these results: Yellow/Brown line RSW15, Blue/Green Line SVS PB13
  8. I am not a Klipsch employee, and never have been, but I've read a great deal of audio since 1959, am a fan, and blissfully live with 9 Klipsch speakers, a wonderful, music loving wife of 47 years, and a music tolerating cat. Paul Klipsch recommended trying any speaker pressed into in a corner (this was before the Forte, and the RP series, etc). He stated that it would be likely to increase the bass by 6 dB [compared to out in the room, where crazy "audiophiles" of the era, as mentioned by @Islander, would likely put their speakers]. To the degree that the greatest power demands are often in the bass, corner placement with a 100 watt ["RMS"] per channel amplifier would be equivalent to using a 400 watt per channel amplifier with the speakers out in the room. Initially, Klipsch speakers were designed to sound good in a "typical" living room, but, as you say, all rooms are different. Other manufactures measured in an ordinary anechoic chamber and aimed for [sort of] flat frequency response and tolerable measured distortion levels in such a chamber. But some speakers need a corner, because the corner is part of the design, so Paul Klipsch had an anechoic chamber built with a revolving door "corner" in it so various corner [and non-corner] speakers could be measured when in a corner. One of Klipsch's goals was to have both good measurements in his special anechoic chamber, and good sound in home listening rooms. Some articles said he found frequency response much less important than low distortion, especially modulation distortion, which some manufacturers ignore. Evidently, Paul felt realistic dynamics to be more important than holding frequency response within +/- 3dB. Originally, he said that to get the "blood stirring" effect of a live symphony orchestra, you need occasional very brief ("instantaneous," probably 1/4 second or less) of 115 dB at your ears, because that's what he measured when recording the Arkansas Symphony. Years later, THX found that instantaneous peaks of 100 dB (110 dB in the bass) is plenty in most home size rooms, with 105 dB (115 dB in the bass) needed in commercial cinemas and concert halls. The silly truth about frequency response is that a certain other company's speaker, costing over $100,000, with advertised frequency response of +/- 1 dB, 20 to 20,000Hz, was measured by a magazine at +/- 5 dB (+4/-6dB)by a magazine, in a real room. Not that +/-5 dB is a bad figure at all, or that I trust the magazine, but that the importance of frequency response is so over emphasized that it seduces marketers. Speaker frequency response in the real world with the availability of room treatments, Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov, and the lovely return of tone controls, should decline, but flat response sells, where it is there or not. See also, Down with Flat! by J. Gordon Holt, Apr 29, 1985 in Stereophile. Some recordings have improved since he wrote that, and, for me, the moderate treble roll-off (- 5 dB at 16K) of something like Audyssey Reference removes his distortion lurking at the top objection in lesser recordings. For wonderful recordings, like the direct-to- disc Crystal Clear recording, Sonic Fireworks, I enjoy Audyssey FLAT, with the bass turned up, as well. Try Fanfare for the Common Man. Corner Placement was heavily criticized from time to time, and year after year by Consumer Reports, who said that corner placement produced the loudest, but most uneven, bass. I have never been able to duplicate these results with any speaker. Then Don Davis, the studio designer, wrote a great article for Audio magazine in which he said, "Paul Klipsch's advocacy of corner placement for the past 50 years is still correct. Corner placement has the following advantages: The entire audience-coverage angle is within 90°, polar control is excellent at specular frequencies, and the best low-frequency modal response in acoustically small rooms is obtained." There may well be a small caveat. Some stray midrange and treble sound may reach the front and side walls a bit too soon. Putting some absorption on the walls where the off-axis midrange/treble might land before being reflected would probably be helpful. I believe Klipsch measures their speakers with grille cloth on. If you have pets [or kids, or unruly party guests] leave the grilles on. Cats will sometimes eat speaker cones, especially if they have a certain (plastic like) smell. I know that acoustically transparent fabric sounds like "clean coal," but I have my center channel behind a faux wall with AT fabric across whole wall, plus an AT projection screen that comes down in front of it. Audyssey Flat fully compensates for this. Audyssey Reference imposes its own curve if I select it. Of course, I have the screen down when running Audyssey. A slight treble control adjustment ought to make up for any filtering by the grille.
  9. [Continued from previous post] Cinerama in our theater (Smilebox) Looking toward the back wall. My wife built the diffusors, and eagerly put them up, along with shelves, absorbers, etc., and solved many problems. For a few films from the magnetic era I sit at the desk behind the couch so I can fluidly ride the Volume control to put back the orchestral and effects dynamics they compressed out, e.g., the ship splintering in Ben-Hur (1959, 70mm and 6 channel ultra dynamic stereo in a 70mm theater), and the music in several places, when they mastered the dialog too high, or the music & effects too low. The volume control manipulations can’t be seen on screen. The Right Font corner. Looking down the right wall. [ran into the 2MB limit again, I guess we don't need the left wall
  10. Here is Gary’s and Annie’s Music Room/Library/Home Theater. Captions are below each picture. The room is 25 ft by 16+. wide, with a sloped ceiling, highest in the rear, that averages 10 ft. Full range Audyssey took out a few peaks, and we love the clarity, the convincing tonality, the clean transients, and the effortless, wide, dynamic range. We think our sound closely resembles the character of the orchestras we have listened to “live.” Entering. Annie and I deliberately did not fill the shelves with books, but put art objects and artifacts on them to provide diffusion and slight absorption. The front wall. The wall is covered in fabric, and hides the center channel speaker, which is a modified Belle Klipsch which is flush mounted in a bump-out sticking out of the other side of the wall. Flush mounting gains us 1 to 3 dB in the bass, and some bass extension, as well. It is a good timbre match above the 40 Hz Audyssey measurement says is the F3. The Belle is raised so that the tweeter is the same height as those in the Khorns. We put stock upgrades in the Khorns; they have the same guts as ones made in 2018. The fabric on the wall is acoustically transparent, as is the projection screen. With both fabrics in the way, we get about -1.75 dB at 16K. Audyssey compensates for that. The bump-out also contains a subwoofer, and quite a few diffusers. The front wall with the 130" wide (not diagonal) AT screen down. The screen height is such that someone with tri-focals can see the whole image through the tops of their glasses. Screen shot from the Main Viewing Position. This is what Panavision & CinemaScope look like. [continued on next series I post -- ran into the 2MB maximum]
  11. (4) My surrounds are Heresy IIs, which aren't as good as my front speakers (updated Klipschorns and a modified Belle Klipsch center), IMO, but keeping bass out of the H IIs, letting a sub do it, worked wonders. My FL, FR, and C crossover to the sub at 60 Hz, and the H IIs crossover at 80 Hz. (5) See (4) ....................... Many SACDs of classical and some of jazz are still available, including some new issues.
  12. It's terrific with SACD multichannel 5, 5.1, and reissues of "Quad." It's still pretty good with 2 channel sources and PLII Music. I resisted it for a while, then tried it, and am now in love with it.
  13. My guess is Forte IV plus (now or eventually) a very good subwoofer cut in at about 60 Hz, about 3 to 6 dB higher SPL than flat. Does your preamp, integrated, or receiver have a subwoofer output? I "managed" a pair of Klipschorns in a room your size for a while. The only disadvantage was that the "sweet spot" was only 1 chair wide.
  14. Proceed with caution if: The specs are given at 1K only ... a useless spec. The specs include THD, but not IM. Some (Parasound?)even include TIM. The roster of company executives includes Hassatan or Niccolò Machiavelli.
  15. As J. Gordon Holt once said, "Down with Flat!" The recordings aren't flat The speakers aren't flat The room is not flat Why would we want to "tune flat?" Tune to taste! With Klipschorns + Audyssey FLAT and tone controls (NO DEQ) and sub gain control: Often this at MLP: 30 Hz = FLAT 40 Hz = + 12 dB 100 Hz = +10 dB 150 Hz = + 7.5 dB Sloping down to FLAT @ 1K Hz From that point, pretty flat up to 6K Hz, Then: For dull recordings: Select Audyssey FLAT For neutral recordings: Select Audyssey Reference (slopes down, starting at 6K Hz to - 5 dB at 15K Hz) For bright recordings use treble control judiciously to turn down the treble while also using Audyssey Reference. For neutral recordings, it looks like this:
  16. @Blackcat, welcome to the forum! Don't mind us, some of us indulge in picayune distinctions. Basically ... "Bass" is both the lower part of the frequency spectrum and a fish. "Base" is that upon which something sits, or something so contemptible, mean-spirited, with a selfish lack of human decency, with uncontrolled "Base Instincts" that it has become characteristic of certain politicians.
  17. For a while, I had Klipschorns in a room that width, but about 14 feet high. Weird, right? They were fine, except only one person could occupy the sweet spot chair. The sound was fine tonally for two more folks, but their soundstage was narrower. You and your wife could probably put the right arm of one chair right up against the left arm of the other chair and get a good image.
  18. Yes, agreed. The front wall is the wall you see when facing front, where the front speakers are, etc., etc. A few reviewers still say it counter-rationally. At the moment, the way my room is set up now, I get depth. It would be interesting if we found depth increasing if we put 2' by 4' absorbers where a yardstick (or a longer stick) touches the side wall if placed flat on the midrange part of the speaker, as Chris A advised in his article on corner horn acoustics. The depth changes with the recording. I have a third, "center" channel (Belle Klipsch) buried in the front wall, about 1/16 of an inch behind where it would be if it was perfectly flush mounted. It is used with movies and with music, depending on the miking pattern used when they recorded it, and other aspects of the recording technique, determined by ear. "Rightness" prevails. Here we go again, " ... 'mike' and 'miking' are the grammatically preferred ways to describe your microphone setup." https://audiomav.com/micing-or-miking-how-to-describe-your-microphone-setup/ It would be interesting to see what a cross section of editors woud say about this -- you know, the ones who insist you can't say "a myriad of variables," but must say, "myriad variables."
  19. A little extra headroom doesn't hurt, especially if you are going to turn up a bass control. Every 3 dB increase doubles the power need in watts. To the degree that much of the oomph of music resides in the bass (~below 200 Hz) and low midrange (~200 Hz to maybe 600 Hz) and since many recordings attenuate the bass in order to turn up the overall volume (and compress it) to fight the industry's never ending and ill-advised "loudness war," that some of the "suits" want, but virtually all recording engineers and producers think is FUBAR (see Chris A, "The Missing Octave," and much more of his writing on this forum) I often find my bass control up 6 dB (quadruple the wattage needed in the bass). It's true, you can hit THX's max peak power (about 100 dB through the main speakers in a typical living room (105 dB in a huge -- theater sized -- room) with Heresies at a mere 30 watts (for 1/4 second, at 13 feet away), turning up the bass to the main speakers by 6 dB may need 120 watts for that 1/4 second.
  20. Speaker stands that allow a cavity below the speaker (i.e., a speaker on "legs") reduce bass, but this may or may not be a problem when using a subwoofer, depending on where the crossover to the sub is. The IVs are probably good to about 50 Hz -- when they get the extra bass loading from the floor -- and a somewhat higher than 50 Hz when they are not near the floor and are on stands with a cavity underneath. Although a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, music is almost never written for the lowest keys, and your subwoofer will take care of that anyway. Except for the contrabassoon and pipe organ, most instruments of the orchestra stay above about 40 Hz. If the sub's crossover point is set at the typical 80 Hz, I'd think there would be no problem, but bass deterioration due to cavities has been reported (with other speakers) as high as 100 Hz, and you probably don't want your subwoofer/Heresy crossover point that high. Some people have closed up the cavity by tastefully enclosing it with veneered and stained plywood (not the really thin stuff; probably 1/2" or 3/4"). Even with closed stands, the Heresy still is deprived of some loading from the extent of the floor all around it, when it is on the floor, as designed. What about all those speakers we see on bookshelves? 1) Most are pretty close to the wall, and get some loading there, and from the books, etc. 2) The better true bookshelf speakers may be "voiced" to have slightly boosted bass compared to the Heresy IV, which is often on the floor. I agree with you that the soundstage is pretty low when on the floor, so If I had them they would be on fully enclosed stands, with a subwoofer crossed over a bit high (decided upon by ear), and the sub would be turned up slightly (ear, again), and the Heresies used with an integrated amp, or a preamp, or a receiver with a Bass Control to boost the Heresys' own bass a bit, which may fill out the mids a little.
  21. FIRST, try this: put each speaker in a room corner, push the speaker all the way into the corner, touching each wall, or within 1/16 inch of each wall, but aimed toward the main listening position. Corner placement should add about 3 dB to 6 dB to the bass, depending on the former location. To avoid early reflections from the nearby walls, put an absorber on each wall about where a yardstick would touch the wall if you held it flat against the front of speaker. If the absorber is 2 feet wide, that should be enough. Like this: If this doesn't give you enough bass, SECOND, try another amplifier with two features: 1) More power (at least 100 watts, both channels operating, at low distortion, probably 0.05% THD or better [like, 0.01% which is what you have now], 20 to 20,000Hz) and 2) tone controls. Don't listen to those who say avoid tone controls! A Bass Control turned up a bit can really help! The bass control probably won't affect the subwoofer, so turn the subwoofer gain knob up. Try crossing over to the subwoofer at 60 Hz and 80 Hz, and go with what sounds the best with bass heavy material.
  22. John, [Those of you who have heard this stuff way too often, skip it!] I've been ruminating on what makes the not necessarily "golden ears" dislike Klipsch, and other speaker companies that use horns in the mid and high frequencies (or even those that are fully horn loaded, like The Klipsch Jubilee and Klipschorn, old JBLs and Altecs). All of the above, including the 2/3 horn loaded Cornwall IV, sound incredibly like the classical orchestras I experienced and/or played in, as well as the marching band, jazz band, and Rock bands in Golden Gate Park. So what's the problem? Confirmation bias, when, and if, the "golden ears" hear horns. They have been told, time and again, "Horns are bad, honky, sound like singing through cupped hands," etc., so they hear artifacts that may or may not be there. Every concert hall, control room, recording location, microphone placement pattern, sounds different, but there is usually no way of knowing if what one is hearing is the speaker, the room, the listening position, the original room, etc. Some have not heard good horns, including one salesperson selling low dynamics, veiled, "boring" speakers that I encountered in the shadow of the Transamerica pyramid, who was running down horns without ever having heard one (he finally admitted that). Some need to show they can afford speakers costing from $100,000 to $4,000,000, even if they rarely listen to them, being so busy buying and selling the world. They, for whatever reason, like some other design approach better. That's O.K. with me, but they should to leave any preconceived notions at the door, if possible. When I selected Klipschorns, I very closely considered the very different big Bozaks (sweet), and, later, B&W 801 Fs (smooth). They all sounded very, very different, and I liked them all, but the Klipschorns sounded the most like my old orchestras, and were the most fun! John, I know what you mean about ear wax. I had mine removed, and I hear a lot more detail, etc. I recommend it to everyone, but have it done by a professional.
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